Are higher does of Minoxidil more effective?

[IDOASIS]

I do not think you understand the nature of male pattern baldness. TGF-beta may be an immune regulatory molecule, but that does not mean that every person has immune response during male pattern baldness.

No immune response is required and an immune response is rarely seen unless the it's secondary to bacteria breaking down secretions from the sebaceous glands into proinflammatory fatty acids. This doesn't happen in every person, so there isn't an immune response.

I am sorry my friend ,I disagree .

Hair-raising. The latest news on male-pattern baldness.

Proctor PH.

The initiating event in balding seems to be an abnormal sensitivity to the male sex hormones. In addition, a multifactorial model is emerging in which hormones affect the hair follicle in a way that causes it to be perceived as a foreign body by the immune system, which then mounts an attack. Several new classes of agents have the potential to treat hair loss. More than 40 U.S. and several hundred foreign patents have been issued for hair-loss treatment agents. As is common in dermatology, no single agent works universally against hair loss, so the treatment process is often one of trial and error.

The bottom line is ,Azelaic Acid CAN and WILL help some of us (like myself).

 

[docj077]

I do not think you understand the nature of male pattern baldness. TGF-beta may be an immune regulatory molecule, but that does not mean that every person has immune response during male pattern baldness.

No immune response is required and an immune response is rarely seen unless the it's secondary to bacteria breaking down secretions from the sebaceous glands into proinflammatory fatty acids. This doesn't happen in every person, so there isn't an immune response.

I am sorry my friend ,I disagree .

Hair-raising. The latest news on male-pattern baldness.

Proctor PH.

The initiating event in balding seems to be an abnormal sensitivity to the male sex hormones. In addition, a multifactorial model is emerging in which hormones affect the hair follicle in a way that causes it to be perceived as a foreign body by the immune system, which then mounts an attack. Several new classes of agents have the potential to treat hair loss. More than 40 U.S. and several hundred foreign patents have been issued for hair-loss treatment agents. As is common in dermatology, no single agent works universally against hair loss, so the treatment process is often one of trial and error.

The bottom line is ,Azelaic Acid CAN and WILL help some of us (like myself).

Like I said, not all men with male pattern baldness demonstrate an immune response histologically, so it's neither the cause nor the norm. It's merely a consequence in certain susceptible people. Any dermatopathologist that has examined a biopsy specimen from an individual suffering from male pattern baldness will tell you the same.

Another thing you need to understand is what multifactorial actually means when it comes to genetic disorders. The way that it's used in that article is incorrect. A hormone causing a gene to have multiple effects means that the gene is targeting multiple downstream mediators, which is what actually happens. Multifactorial means that multiple endogenous or exogenous factors are coming together to alter the expression of one or more genes, which is not proven. It begins with one endogenous variable and ends with multiple downstream effects.

male pattern baldness is an example of pleiotropism with a defective androgen receptor causing multiple end effects. Unless you can prove otherwise, male pattern baldness is not an example of genetic heterogeneity or multifactorial exogenous influences altering hair growth.

Lastly, please post studies, not mere rantings from a random website. If that is actually from Dr. Proctor, then it's taken out of context as that's not what his entire theory encompasses.

 

[IDOASIS]

TGF-beta may be an immune regulatory molecule, but that does not mean that every person has immune response during male pattern baldness. Not every person has infiltrates of lymphocytes and leukocytes to the area of the follicle.

No immune response is required and an immune response is rarely seen unless the it's secondary to bacteria breaking down secretions from the sebaceous glands into proinflammatory fatty acids. This doesn't happen in every person, so there isn't an immune response.

Can you prove it? ,please link me to a study.

Alopecia areata is considered to be an autoimmune disorder and androgenic alopecia is a hormonally-linked disease that results in fibrotic response. They are not similiar in any way except for that they cause a similar result.

TGF-beta may be an immune regulatory molecule, but that does not mean that every person has immune response during male pattern baldness.

You are not consistent ,you say there is no link between AA and male pattern baldness,
then you say there can be with some of us.

Lastly, please post studies, not mere rantings from a random website. If that is actually from Dr. Proctor, then it's taken out of context as that's not what his entire theory encompasses.

IT IS ALL from PUBMED.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

So far I have not seen one study from you.

 

[docj077]

TGF-beta may be an immune regulatory molecule, but that does not mean that every person has immune response during male pattern baldness. Not every person has infiltrates of lymphocytes and leukocytes to the area of the follicle.

No immune response is required and an immune response is rarely seen unless the it's secondary to bacteria breaking down secretions from the sebaceous glands into proinflammatory fatty acids. This doesn't happen in every person, so there isn't an immune response.

Can you prove it? ,please link me to a study.

Study is demonstrated below with no histological mention of lymphocytic infiltrates during histological examination of male pattern baldness follicles.

Alopecia areata is considered to be an autoimmune disorder and androgenic alopecia is a hormonally-linked disease that results in fibrotic response. They are not similiar in any way except for that they cause a similar result.

TGF-beta may be an immune regulatory molecule, but that does not mean that every person has immune response during male pattern baldness.

You are not consistent ,you say there is no link between AA and male pattern baldness,
then you say there can be with some of us.

Nope, that's not what I said at all. Re-read it. An immune system response and an immune regulatory molecule are not the same thing. Anyone that has taken immunology can tell you that.

Lastly, please post studies, not mere rantings from a random website. If that is actually from Dr. Proctor, then it's taken out of context as that's not what his entire theory encompasses.

IT IS ALL from PUBMED.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

So far I have not seen one study from you.

As I said, learn the difference between alopecia areata and alopecia androgenica. Your study is dealing with alopecia areata, so you really have no argument.

Notice that inflammation is mentioned, but not in the context of an immune response (i.e. macrophages, neutrophils, lymphocytes, etc. being present). Also notice, that their is no mention of alopecia areata being synonymous with alopecia androgenica.

It is also important to notice that they induced the TGF-beta response using only testosterone and not DHT, which is something that I've pointed out in the past. All androgens affect the hair follicle unit and simply inhibiting DHT in any fashion will not suffice to prevent male pattern baldness as testosterone causes the exact same mechanism.


Perifollicular Fibrosis: Pathogenetic Role in Androgenetic Alopecia
Hyeon Gyeong YOO, Jin Sook KIM, Se Rah LEE, Hyun Keol PYO, Hyung In MOON,
Jong Hee LEE, Oh Sang KWON, Jin Ho CHUNG, Kyu Han KIM, Hee Chul EUN, and
Kwang Hyun CHO*
Department of Dermatology, Seoul National University College of Medicine, Laboratory of Cutaneous Aging and Hair
Research, Clinical Research Institute, Seoul National University Hospital, and Institute of Dermatological Science, Seoul
National University; Seoul, 110–744, Korea.
Received October 12, 2005; accepted December 13,

On close histological observation of balded scalp biopsies,
the miniaturization of terminal hairs is a distinguishing feature
in Androgenetic Alopecia and is frequently associated with perifollicular
fibrosis.5,6) The miniaturization of the hair follicles was found
to be associated with a deposit of so-called “collagen or connective
tissue streamers†beneath the follicle7) as well as a
2—2.5 times enlargement of the follicular dermal sheath
composed of densely packed collagen bundles.5) Transforming
growth factor-beta 1 (TGF- b1) has been proposed to play
an important role in catagen regulation. TGF- b1 has a negative
growth-regulatory effect on hair follicles in vitro.8)

Androgenetic Alopecia is hereditary and androgen-dependent, progressive
thinning of the scalp hair that follows a defined clinical pattern.
Major advances have been achieved in finding out the
androgen metabolism involved. Until now, it can be summarized
into just two points. One is more peripheral conversion
of T to DHT, a reaction catalyzed by the enzyme 5a-R in
hair follicles from the balded scalp.10) Type II 5a-R transforms
T into DHT and does so more in the areas of the scalp
affected by Androgenetic Alopecia than in those in which Androgenetic Alopecia never develops.
Compared to T, DHT has approximately five fold greater
affinity for the AR and DHT binding to AR in hair follicles is
commonly accepted as the first step leading to the miniaturizing
of follicles seen in Androgenetic Alopecia.11—13) The other is higher levels
of AR in cells from balding scalp hair follicles with similar
properties to those from non-balding scalp.14)
The primary location for the AR in hair follicles is well
known to be the dermal papillae in both anagen and telogen
hairs.15,16) Moreover, it is usually believed that the dermal
papilla plays a major regulatory role in hair follicles and is
thought to be the site of androgen action. Therefore, action
mechanisms of androgen on Androgenetic Alopecia has been usually studied
using dermal papilla cells.14,17—21)
Recently, AR has been also identified in the interfollicular
DFs and epidermal keratinocytes.15) Recently, AR has been also identified in the interfollicular
DFs and epidermal keratinocytes.15) Therefore, several efforts to explain the pathogenetic mechanism of Androgenetic Alopecia had
been made in hair epithelial cells as well as DPC.17,18,21—23)
Previous reports showed that the DHT and T treatment
elicited an increase in the steady state concentration of
a1(I)-procollagen mRNA in human osteoblast-like osteosarcoma
cells24) and that collagen synthesis was stimulated by androgen in mice.25)

For that reason, perifollicular fibrosis
may be another pathogenetic mechanisms of Androgenetic Alopecia, not a
simple phenomenon usually seen in Androgenetic Alopecia.
This study clearly demonstrated that T stimulated the transcription
and protein expression of type I procollagen gene in
follicular DFs much more than vehicle-treated controls. This
suggests that type I procollagen synthesis induction by androgen
(T) may be, in part, responsible for densely packed
collagen bundles around miniaturized hair follicles leading to
perifollicular fibrosis seen in Androgenetic Alopecia. Finasteride treatment can
also alleviate androgen-induced transcription and protein expression
of type I procollagen in the follicular DFs. When a
hair follicle miniaturizes, it ascends upward from the reticular
dermis to the papillary dermis, followed by an associated
angiofibrotic tract called a follicular streamer.26) Considering
above results and other report, the miniaturized hair can
travel back down the streamer tract to the reticular dermis to
resume its position and role as a terminal hair with finasteride
treatment. These results ascertained as a basic mechanisms
of finasteride to improve Androgenetic Alopecia in the aspect of DFs.
The type II 5 a-R is crucially involved in the pathogenesis
of androgen-dependent hair growth. According to previous
study, both DPC and DFs from occipital scalp hair expressed
type I and II 5 a-R cDNA.11) The type II gene was transcribed
more in DFs than in DPC.11) Finasteride is well known as a
potent and highly selective 5 a-R type-II inhibitor.12,13) It is
reasonable that the action mechanisms of finasteride on Androgenetic Alopecia
can be explained as inhibition of collagen synthesis in the
follicular DFs, which lessens perifollicular fibrosis and formation
of angiofibrotic tract involved in catagen induction.
TGF- b1 appears to inhibit the rate of hair follicle lengthening
in vitro and in vivo in mice to promote the regression
phase of the organ culture of human hair follicles.8) Thus,
TGF- b1 is considered as a catagen induction marker in hair
follicle.9) TGF- b1 was shown to induce a rapid fibrotic response
in vivo.27,28) Moreover, chronic expression of TGF- b1
in adult DFs caused severe alopecia characterized by epidermal
and follicular hyperproliferation, apoptosis, as well as
dermal fibrosis and inflammation.29) Inui et al.23) demonstrated
that androgen induced TGF- b1 from the balding dermal
papilla cells plays an important role in miniaturization of
hair shaft. Also, a key function for TGF- b in wound healing
and fibrosis is to regulate the expression of proteins of the
fibrillar collagens and fibronectin. TGF- b is considered a potent
anabolic factor that enhances connective tissue deposition
and repair and which sustained signaling likely leads to
the development of tissue fibrosis.30) Therefore, it can be inferred
that the T-induced TGF- b1 expression may induce
perifollicular fibrosis in the DFs, accelerate hair follicles into
moving on catagen phase of hair cycle, and inhibit epithelial
growth, which brings all together out miniaturization of hair
follicles in Androgenetic Alopecia. According to pretreatment of neutralizing
TGF- b1 antibody, T-induced type I procollagen level may decreased
through the anti-TGF- b1 protein in the DFs. This result
was related to TGF- b1, which induce catagen period fi-
brosis as the epitome of T-induced Androgenetic Alopecia. In this study, the fi-
nasteride and T co-treatment was demonstrated to reduce the
expression of TGF- b1 in scalp follicular DFs. This result
also explains another possible action mechanisms of finasteride
on Androgenetic Alopecia.
It is very difficult to obtain in vivo human scalp follicular
cells. The scalp biopsies at the vertex and occiput in each
person are much more difficult because of few volunteering.
For that reason, the main limitation of this study is that it can
not compare the results in vertex and occipital scalp follicular
DFs. Although this study could not be performed under
the comparative design, it still has valuable meanings that the
vertex scalp follicular DFs have the active receptors response
to androgen hormones and androgen hormone has effects on
production of the collagen from follicular DFs, which shows
histopathologically characteristic perifollicular fibrosis in
Androgenetic Alopecia. In conclusion, perifollicular fibrosis induced by androgen
can be suggested as one of the underlying pathogenetic
mechanisms, resulting in hair follicle miniaturization in
Androgenetic Alopecia. The biological characteristics of finasteride may be
also explained as reducing T-induced procollagen and TGFb1
synthesis, diminishing perifollicular fibrosis in Androgenetic Alopecia.

 

[IDOASIS]

I dont claim AA and male pattern baldness are identical ,but there is
a link between the two, re-read what I have said so far.

As I said, learn the difference between alopecia areata and alopecia androgenica. Your study is dealing with alopecia areata, so you really have no argument.

Another thing you need to understand is what multifactorial actually means when it comes to genetic disorders. The way that it's used in that article is incorrect

I guess the good old Dr proctor should learn the difference too
Nothing is similar between AA and male pattern baldness ,right?

Alopecia areata is thought to be an autoimmune disease in which the body mistakenly treats its hair follicles as foreign tissue and suppresses or stops hair growth. It is not contagious but may be hereditary—there are a few recorded cases of babies being born with congenital alopecia areata. Stress has not been proven to be a crucial factor, although this is still disputed.

Psoriatic alopecia: acute and chronic hair loss in 47 patients with scalp psoriasis.

Runne U, Kroneisen-Wiersma P.

Zentrum der Dermatologie und Venerologie, Klinikum der J.W.-Goethe-Universitat, Frankfurt, BRD.

Symptomatic hair loss and alopecia were seen in psoriatic lesions of the scalp in 47 patients. Remarkably, in 66% of the cases it was an inaugural manifestation, and in 36% the scalp was exclusively involved. Therefore 34% of the patients presented with a primary manifestation of isolated scalp psoriasis. Hair loss varied in intensity from protracted to moderate and massive (36% in tufts). It presented as acute (51%), chronic (36%) or chronic recurrent (13%). Thirteen patients (28%) became aware of the hair loss with the beginning of therapy. The alopecia was found to be circumscribed in 75% of the cases and diffuse in 25%. In 2 cases psoriatic alopecia also manifested itself at sites other than the scalp. The telogen count was found to be increased up to 25-86% in the florid stage. Examinations under the light microscope showed a patchy perifollicular lymphohistiocytic infiltrate in the upper and middle dermis with adnexotropia in several cases. This infiltrate can alter the follicle epithelium and may lead to a granulomatous foreign-body reaction with destruction of the hair follicle. After topical antipsoriatic treatment, most of the reexamined patients showed complete hair regrowth, while 5 developed a residual scarring. Therefore, in the patient with circumscribed or diffuse symptomatic alopecia, with or without scarring, psoriatic alopecia should be considered.

Hair-raising. The latest news on male-pattern baldness.

Proctor PH.

The initiating event in balding seems to be an abnormal sensitivity to the male sex hormones. In addition, a multifactorial model is emerging in which hormones affect the hair follicle in a way that causes it to be perceived as a foreign body by the immune system, which then mounts an attack. Several new classes of agents have the potential to treat hair loss. More than 40 U.S. and several hundred foreign patents have been issued for hair-loss treatment agents. As is common in dermatology, no single agent works universally against hair loss, so the treatment process is often one of trial and error.

 

[docj077]

Good lord, IDOASIS!

Do you not even read what you post?

Dr. Proctor knows the difference. You, however, do not.

Alopecia Areata - Autoimmune disease characterized by a lack of self recognition in the hair follicle. Likely cause is a viral illness or secondary to other autoimmune disorders.

Alopecia Androgenica - Hormone related inhibition of follicular growth through growth inhibitory molecules and a non-scarring alopecia consisting of perifollicular fibrosis. No scarring and not every patient has infiltrates, which means that not every patient has an immune response.

Psoriatic Alopecia - a pro-inflammatory process caused by psoriasis resulting in lymphohistiocytic infiltrate and possible scarring.

You need to do more reading.

There are molecular and histological differences between hormone mediated hairloss, psoriatic/inflammatory hairloss, and autoimmune hair loss. They are not the same. They only result in a similar outcome...baldness.

 

[IDOASIS]

As I said, learn the difference between alopecia areata and alopecia androgenica

Alopecia areata is considered to be an autoimmune disorder and androgenic alopecia is a hormonally-linked disease that results in fibrotic response. They are not similiar in any way except for that they cause a similar result.

It seems that you cant really tell the difference.
AA and male pattern baldness DOES NOT cause a similar result.

Alopecia areata describes baldness in spots. It may occur anywhere on the head.

Androgenetic alopecia -Hair is lost in a well-defined pattern, beginning above both temples. Over time, the hairline recedes to form a characteristic "M" shape. Hair also thins at the crown (near the top of the head), often progressing to partial or complete baldness.

Good lord, IDOASIS!

Do you not even read what you post?

Dr. Proctor knows the difference. You, however, do not.

Alopecia Areata - Autoimmune disease characterized by a lack of self recognition in the hair follicle. Likely cause is a viral illness or secondary to other autoimmune disorders.

Alopecia Androgenica - Hormone related inhibition of follicular growth through growth inhibitory molecules and a non-scarring alopecia consisting of perifollicular fibrosis. No scarring and not every patient has infiltrates, which means that not every patient has an immune response.

Psoriatic Alopecia - a pro-inflammatory process caused by psoriasis resulting in lymphohistiocytic infiltrate and possible scarring.

You need to do more reading.

There are molecular and histological differences between hormone mediated hairloss, psoriatic/inflammatory hairloss, and autoimmune hair loss. They are not the same. They only result in a similar outcome...baldness.

I know the terms.
Man ,you are in deep denial.
Stop playing DEAF and listen for once.
The imunne system can and play a role in both
male pattern baldness and AA.
A product which effective treating AA CAN BE effective treating male pattern baldness.

Effects of cyclosporin A on hair.Lutz G.
Department of Dermatology, Rheinische Friedrich-Wilhelms-Universitat, Bonn, FRG.

Cyclosporin A (CSA) is an immunosuppressive agent that has provided new approaches in transplantation medicine and in the treatment of autoimmune diseases. One of the most common dermatological side effects of oral CSA is dose-dependent hypertrichosis. This stimulating effect on hair growth encouraged a number of investigators to use CSA not only in the treatment of alopecia areata (AA), but also in male pattern alopecia (MPA). While oral application proved successful, the beneficial effect of topical application was very limited in both AA and MPA.

PMID: 8003314 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

It looks like you need to do more reading my freind.

 

[docj077]

As I said, learn the difference between alopecia areata and alopecia androgenica

Alopecia areata is considered to be an autoimmune disorder and androgenic alopecia is a hormonally-linked disease that results in fibrotic response. They are not similiar in any way except for that they cause a similar result.

It seems that you cant really tell the difference.
AA and male pattern baldness DOES NOT cause a similar result.

Alopecia areata describes baldness in spots. It may occur anywhere on the head.

Androgenetic alopecia -Hair is lost in a well-defined pattern, beginning above both temples. Over time, the hairline recedes to form a characteristic "M" shape. Hair also thins at the crown (near the top of the head), often progressing to partial or complete baldness.

Good lord, IDOASIS!

Do you not even read what you post?

Dr. Proctor knows the difference. You, however, do not.

Alopecia Areata - Autoimmune disease characterized by a lack of self recognition in the hair follicle. Likely cause is a viral illness or secondary to other autoimmune disorders.

Alopecia Androgenica - Hormone related inhibition of follicular growth through growth inhibitory molecules and a non-scarring alopecia consisting of perifollicular fibrosis. No scarring and not every patient has infiltrates, which means that not every patient has an immune response.

Psoriatic Alopecia - a pro-inflammatory process caused by psoriasis resulting in lymphohistiocytic infiltrate and possible scarring.

You need to do more reading.

There are molecular and histological differences between hormone mediated hairloss, psoriatic/inflammatory hairloss, and autoimmune hair loss. They are not the same. They only result in a similar outcome...baldness.

I know the terms.
Man ,you are in deep denial.
Stop playing DEAF and listen for once.
The imunne system can and play a role in both
male pattern baldness and AA.
A product which effective treating AA CAN BE effective treating male pattern baldness.

Effects of cyclosporin A on hair.Lutz G.
Department of Dermatology, Rheinische Friedrich-Wilhelms-Universitat, Bonn, FRG.

Cyclosporin A (CSA) is an immunosuppressive agent that has provided new approaches in transplantation medicine and in the treatment of autoimmune diseases. One of the most common dermatological side effects of oral CSA is dose-dependent hypertrichosis. This stimulating effect on hair growth encouraged a number of investigators to use CSA not only in the treatment of alopecia areata (AA), but also in male pattern alopecia (MPA). While oral application proved successful, the beneficial effect of topical application was very limited in both AA and MPA.

PMID: 8003314 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

It looks like you need to do more reading my freind.

We know that cyclosporin regrows hair and we know that cytokines play a huge role in male pattern baldness. You aren't posting anything new here.

This has been talked about before and a person can not take oral cyclosporin and topical cyclosporin would leave a person open to opportunistic infection of the scalp if any injury was sustained. The same holds true for the use of topical steriods. Any medication that inhibits the immune systems ability to control the normal flora or injury can not be used in the treatment of male pattern baldness. Also, no medication can be used that would have the potential of downregulating the immune system systemically. Topical inhibition of the immune system would mean that a person could not even get a sun burn as immune system survelliance of that tissue would be diminished and melanoma would be the likely outcome.

TGF-beta serves a purpose in a person with normal physiology. When damage occurs to the scalp and to the hair follicles, TGF-beta is supposed to send the hair follicle into a dormant state and promote healing of the area around the hair follicle. However, in male pattern baldness, androgenic stimulation has become androgenic inhibition through the linking of the androgen receptor to the TGF-beta gene.

In case you don't remember, androgens are normally anti-inflammatory molecules and estrogens are pro-inflammatory molecules.

As I've said, not everyone with male pattern baldness has inflammation of the scalp and an immune response, but everyone with male pattern baldness has perifollicular fibrosis.

Also, alopecia areata is not always in spots. It's broken down into many different types or disease processes including:

Alopecia areata monolocularis
Alopecia areata multilocularis
Alopecia areata totalis
Alopecia areata universalis
Alopecia areata barbae
Diffuse alopecia areata

You really need to understand what you're posting before you lead others astray. Convincing people that immune system modulating drugs will assist them with their hair loss will have two outcomes. Increased incidence of infection in people with male pattern baldness and increased cancer rates in people with male pattern baldness.

 

[michael barry]

Doctor,

This is wonderful info that you are posting. Ive wished for a long while that some scientist or another would post microscopic pictures of patients with Androgenetic Alopecia from the time they start to receed to the time an area is balded, and went though step-by-step what they see happening. I understand there is a book now out of print by Hideo Uno called the "Histopathology of Hairloss" by Hideo Uno that done this with pictures blown up from electon microscope slides. It costs 140 bucks on Amazon and when I tried to buy it, they were out.



Aminexil is supposed to be an anti-fibrotic molecule. Its in dercap shampoo. I just bought a couple of bottles of it to add to my regimine when Im not shampooing with nizoral.


Thats good research Doctor, some of us appreciate it and you sharing what youve found out.

 

[IDOASIS]

You really need to understand what you're posting before you lead others astray. Convincing people that immune system modulating drugs will assist them with their hair loss will have two outcomes. Increased incidence of infection in people with male pattern baldness and increased cancer rates in people with male pattern baldness.

You took what I have said out of context.
I didnt say it is something new nor cyclosporin is a rational treatment with AA or male pattern baldness.
IT IS A FACT, the same DRUG can and will HELP to treat both male pattern baldness and AA.
For example ,Cyclosporin is effective in both AA and male pattern baldness due to its immunosuppressive properties.

This stimulating effect on hair growth encouraged a number of investigators to use CSA not only in the treatment of alopecia areata (AA), but also in male pattern alopecia (MPA). While oral application proved successful, the beneficial effect of topical application was very limited in both AA and MPA[/b]

 

[kevinme]

So docj077, what your saying is that Testosterone also signals TGF-B the same way DHT does. So both T and DHT cause hairloss? And this would mean that Fina. and to a greater extend Dutasteride wouldn't stop hairloss because of the extra T with some people?

 

[docj077]

You really need to understand what you're posting before you lead others astray. Convincing people that immune system modulating drugs will assist them with their hair loss will have two outcomes. Increased incidence of infection in people with male pattern baldness and increased cancer rates in people with male pattern baldness.

You took what I have said out of context.
I didnt say it is something new nor cyclosporin is a rational treatment with AA or male pattern baldness.
IT IS A FACT, the same DRUG can and will HELP to treat both male pattern baldness and AA.
For example ,Cyclosporin is effective in both AA and male pattern baldness due to its immunosuppressive properties.

This stimulating effect on hair growth encouraged a number of investigators to use CSA not only in the treatment of alopecia areata (AA), but also in male pattern alopecia (MPA). While oral application proved successful, the beneficial effect of topical application was very limited in both AA and MPA[/b]

I understand what you're saying and I've tried to investigate this thoroughly in the past, but we just can't do immunomodulating drugs on the scalp. You're right when you say that it may help some people. Especially those with an inflammatory component along with their androgenic alopecia, but it will not help everyone and anyone who has every had a sunburn on their scalp would not be eligible for such treatments.

Something else that must be considered is that once the fibrosis is in place, then a drug like cyclosporin will likely have no effect as male pattern baldness will have gone from a cellular phenomenon to a structural phenomenon at that point. Topical cyclosporin will be of no use beyond a certain fibrotic point and cyclosporin as an internal is far too dangerous to even test on patients for clinical trials involving male pattern baldness.

Lastly, you need to understand the difference between hair regrowth secondary to treatment and hair regrowth secondary to side effects. Cyclosporin is the latter and works through specific mechanisms to cause hair regrowth. If a study says that hair growth was a side effect, then one must understand that it's not like we're taking men who are NW6 and making them NW1 again. It's likely that vellous hairs appeared for a short time while the patient was on the treatment and maybe some stray terminals. If you find mention of full regrowth of terminal hair all over the head, then I'd be more interested.

 

[docj077]

So docj077, what your saying is that Testosterone also signals TGF-B the same way DHT does. So both T and DHT cause hairloss? And this would mean that Fina. and to a greater extend Dutasteride wouldn't stop hairloss because of the extra T with some people?

In vitro, testosterone has the same effects, but DHT is still the main molecule of concern as it has the highest binding affinity for the androgen receptor. DHT also seems to induce a much stronger conformational change in the androgen receptor allowing it to produce downstream effects at a faster rate and with an overall stronger response.

Testosterone ability to possibly cause male pattern baldness, as well, is most concerning to me as it could be one of two reasons why drugs like propecia and avodart prove useless in the long run as some DHT still binds and testosterone will always be there to keep the disease progressing. But, that's just my opinion.

 

[docj077]

Doctor,

This is wonderful info that you are posting. Ive wished for a long while that some scientist or another would post microscopic pictures of patients with Androgenetic Alopecia from the time they start to receed to the time an area is balded, and went though step-by-step what they see happening. I understand there is a book now out of print by Hideo Uno called the "Histopathology of Hairloss" by Hideo Uno that done this with pictures blown up from electon microscope slides. It costs 140 bucks on Amazon and when I tried to buy it, they were out.



Aminexil is supposed to be an anti-fibrotic molecule. Its in dercap shampoo. I just bought a couple of bottles of it to add to my regimine when Im not shampooing with nizoral.


Thats good research Doctor, some of us appreciate it and you sharing what youve found out.

That book is wicked old, but it might be an interesting read, nonetheless. As for your shampoo, where did you get? I found it online and it looks very promising. Nice find.

 

[chino20]

Guys I was wondering, if you apply the foam and it makes you slightly dizzy/light-headed,it means it is absorbing right... But is this a good sign? If it is absorbing so well to cause those kind of side effects, how much actually stays at the site of application, and how much would be entering your system?

 

[Bryan]

IT IS A FACT, the same DRUG can and will HELP to treat both male pattern baldness and AA. For example ,Cyclosporin is effective in both AA and male pattern baldness due to its immunosuppressive properties.

Actually, Dr. Proctor has said that the reason why cyclosporin is effective in male pattern baldness has nothing to do with its immunosuppressive properties. So, you're back to square one! :wink:

BTW, what does any of this have to do with azelaic acid?? We don't know the actual REASON why azelaic acid appeard to be slightly effective for alopecia areata in that one study you cited. So what's with all this recent conversation about immunosuppressive effects of this and that drug?

Bryan

 

[IDOASIS]

Actually, Dr. Proctor has said that the reason why cyclosporin is effective in male pattern baldness has nothing to do with its immunosuppressive properties.

Did read it Bryan?
It is your Direly good old Dr.

Hair-raising. The latest news on male-pattern baldness.

Proctor PH.

The initiating event in balding seems to be an abnormal sensitivity to the male sex hormones. In addition, a multifactorial model is emerging in which hormones affect the hair follicle in a way that causes it to be perceived as a foreign body by the immune system, which then mounts an attack. Several new classes of agents have the potential to treat hair loss. More than 40 U.S. and several hundred foreign patents have been issued for hair-loss treatment agents. As is common in dermatology, no single agent works universally against hair loss, so the treatment process is often one of trial and error.

So, you're back to square one! :wink:

Thank for counting my points Bryan ,you are a saver :lol:

BTW, what does any of this have to do with azelaic acid?? We don't know the actual REASON why azelaic acid appeard to be slightly effective for alopecia areata in that one study you cited. So what's with all this recent conversation about immunosuppressive effects of this and that drug?

Bryan

Is is simply an example that a treatment effective treating AA
can be effective treating male pattern baldness.
It sure has worked for me.

 

[Bryan]

Did read it Bryan?
It is your Direly good old Dr.

Yes, I read it. What's your point?

BTW, what does any of this have to do with azelaic acid?? We don't know the actual REASON why azelaic acid appeard to be slightly effective for alopecia areata in that one study you cited. So what's with all this recent conversation about immunosuppressive effects of this and that drug?

Bryan

Is is simply an example that a treatment effective treating AA
can be effective treating male pattern baldness.
It sure has worked for me.

It's obviously possible that a given treatment effective at treating AA could also be effective at treating male pattern baldness (minoxidil is an obvious example), but what does that have to do with azelaic acid? We don't even know how it (supposedly) works for AA, so why are you so convinced that it's going to have anything like a similar effect on male pattern baldness?

Like I've mentioned several times before, there is a complete dearth of scientific evidence that it's useful for male pattern baldness. I'm glad that you think it helped you, but did it REALLY? Were you using it in the form of Xandrox? If so, maybe it was the minoxidil that was working for you, not the azelaic acid.

Bryan

 

[michael barry]

Doctor,

On the Aminexil Dercap shampoo..................Amazon.com

Spectral DNC is a company that first made a minoxidil topical with aminexil. They've updated this product with a few other things now

They have attempted to put copper peptiedes, aminexil, barley extract (TGF beta one) in a product now also. \


They are supposedly attempting to make a shampoo with ketoconazale, aminexil, and a few other goodies for hair therein. I admire what theyare trying to do.

It would be nice to get DHT-inhibiton, topical countermeasures for TGF-beta one, TNF-alpha, PKC, peptides, and an anti-fibrotic/anti-inflammatory all in a shampoo left in for a couple of minutes a day. Keep hoping someone can cram all this into one product anyway. ........


C'mon ICX and Aderans (now recruiting for phase 1), c'mon curis too. Im ready to not think about hair anymore.

 

[hairynewyork]

Doctor,

On the Aminexil Dercap shampoo..................Amazon.com

Spectral DNC is a company that first made a minoxidil topical with aminexil. They've updated this product with a few other things now

Just a minor nitpick. Spectral DNC is the name of the minoxidil topical and DS laboratories is the name of the company that makes it. They license the Aminexil from L'oreal, which holds the patent. Aminexil is also available as a stand alone treatment (vials) from Vichy and from Kerastase, which are both subdivisions of L'oreal I believe. The Kerastase Aminexil costs a little bit more than the Vichy Aminexil, though they're both pretty pricey.