Are higher does of Minoxidil more effective?

[Bryan]

We don't know for sure that "there was absolutely no effect whatsoever", especially in the macaque trial of MK386. The hairweights were "similar" in the drug and placebo groups, which obviously doesn't eliminate the possibility that there was a mild benefit for hairloss.

As for Merck's human test of MK386, we don't enough of the details to be able to say that there was absolutely no benefit at all in that one, either.

Bryan

 

[docj077]

I totally agree that if you use avodart as a preventative early enough, you should have little progression with regards to your present vs. your future norwood classification.

Agreed.

However, what concerns me is the people that think that going from a NW4 or NW3 to a NW2 or better on Avodart will be a permanent solution to their hair loss. If indeed these 5AR inhibitors are merely blocking androgens and raising the concentration of growth stimulatory molecules in the hair follicle unit, then what is happening is not reversal of hair loss, but simply stimulated regrowth.

I don't really see much of a distinction between those two concepts. Stimulated regrowth by the reduction of androgens IS reversal of hair loss, in my book.

I do not know of any studies that clearly demonstrate that 5AR administration reverses perifollicular fibrosis. I know that they move the hair back into deeper tissues to promote the growth of hair with larger diameters, etc. But, if a person makes progress while on these drugs, they will almost certainly revert back to their original norwood or worse unless they are able to remodel the extrafollicular region around the hair follicle and reverse the balding process while keeping their hair active.

I personally wouldn't make such an assumption, unless presented with some serious evidence for it. To date, all we have in the case of finasteride is just the 5-year study by Merck showing a slow degradation of haircounts after reaching the 1-year peak. No long-term dutasteride data at all. Too bad we'll probably never have such an experiment performed with dutasteride, meaning that this speculation will go on for years! :-x

Bryan

I'm sort of an oddity with regards to diseases and their treatment.

With regards to drugs like 5AR inhibitors and androgen receptor inhibitors, I personally see those drugs as treating the symptoms of a disease and not the disease itself.

Obviously, a cure for male pattern baldness does not include simply inhibiting androgen production and androgen/androgen receptor binding. A cure can be found at the level of the gene, but scientists have no idea what they even need to target. The androgen receptor is one such target, but not everyone with male pattern baldness has an androgen receptor that is "abnormal" (or at least seems to inherit an "abnormal" receptor).

There is no broad cure for male pattern baldness, because it's underlying cause is not the same for everyone.

If dermatologists would get off their butts and biopsy everyone with hairloss, so they could find the true underlying cause for each patient, we wouldn't have this epidemic problem of 5AR inhibitors being the only approved medications.

Some people have an androgen problem, but some people have a fibrosis problem, and worse yet, some men have an immune system problem when it comes to hair loss. Identifying which one it is really should shape a treatment regimen and a patient should work with their derm. as a team and not as a servant to the will of their least favorite physician that just happens to write them a prescription.

That's just my opinion, I guess.

 

[Guest]

I totally agree that if you use avodart as a preventative early enough, you should have little progression with regards to your present vs. your future norwood classification.

However, what concerns me is the people that think that going from a NW4 or NW3 to a NW2 or better on Avodart will be a permanent solution to their hair loss. If indeed these 5AR inhibitors are merely blocking androgens and raising the concentration of growth stimulatory molecules in the hair follicle unit, then what is happening is not reversal of hair loss, but simply stimulated regrowth.

Doctor, do you think that I am starting early enough on Avodart to not progress that m uch over the course of my life? Like say I'm NW1.5 diffuse now at 22, is it unreasonable to expect to stay NW2 or below into middle age and then go to NW3 when I get old? My dad is NW5 at 50 having never used any hair loss drugs or treatments. There are many posters on this board with the same exact same situation I'm in. I think Aplunk is one.

Also propecia has only been out for 10 years, and avodart for 4, so by the time people like me start to thin again in say 10 more years, there may be better topical/oral treatments out or possibly even HM, right?

i'm not really understanding the anti-fibrotic stuff I must admit. How do I tell if my hair is already in fibrosis? I am getting regrowth on the temples and hairline and in the crown, so is there a good chance that my follicles haven't entered that stage yet?

Also, if Avodart is holding someone's hair in place, and they don'tneed more regrowth, is there any benefit to adding minoxidil simply as an anti-fibrosis agent?

Also I heard you discussing an anti androgen topical and an anti fibrotic one. would spironolactone be a better topical anti androgen than nizoral?

Even with testosterone hair loss can progress and without a means to combat the inflammation, fibrosis, and in some cases, "immune response" that accompanies hair loss, a person will not keep all their hair for the duration of their lifetime. It may be subtle and it may be a progression from a NW2 from regrowth to a NW3, but it may not happen for 30 years and you'll either have to live with that or wait for the next best drug to come out and save you.

I totally understand. All I wish for is to not go down more than two Norwood scales in my lifetime after starting Avodart. Is that too much to expect from it? I don't think it is. After all, even if I go to NW3 at say age 60, HM would prob be out in 40 years or if it's not, I could just get an hair transplant with my donor hair.

Last question though is what do you think is the thing that won't happen for 30 years? The progression might take 30 years? I was confused by the "may not happen for 30 years" because I wasn't sure what you were talking about.

Thanks a lot for posting in this thread. Your posts have been very informative.

 

[IDOASIS]

ideoasis then how do you explain the fact that specific type 1 inhibitors have absolutely no effect on hair loss whatsoever? what you point out is not proof merely supposition.

Beside what Doctor and Bryan have said , 5ar2 is the dominant type in the dermal papilla ,but nobody said it is absolutely the only type.

The feasibility of quantitative analysis of androgen metabolism by use of single dermal papillae from human hair follicles.Niiyama S, Happle R, Hoffmann R.
Department of Dermatology, Philipp University, Marburg, Germany. niiyama@mailer.uni-marburg.de

Androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia) is a dihydrotestosterone-mediated process, characterized by continuous miniaturization of androgen sensitive hair follicles (HF). Although increased 5 alpha-reductase (5aR) activity in affected HF is a key feature in the pathogenesis of Androgenetic Alopecia, only little is known about the in vivo expression of 5aR within Androgenetic Alopecia-affected HF. Recent studies have shown that the dermal papilla (DP) is the predominant site of type 2 5aR expression within the human HF, but direct measurements of 5aR activity in intact DP of Androgenetic Alopecia-affected HF have not been reported so far, mainly because of technical problems. Hence there is a need for a reliable and sensitive method of measuring 5aR activity in fresh tissues. As a novel approach, we used freshly isolated, intact DP and a highly sensitive HPLC-radiomatic flow scintillation system to measure 5aR. In this way we were able to measure 5aR even in small DPs from miniaturized HF. Our results show that DP from the occipital scalp express ex vivo considerable amounts of 5aR activity, but the measurable enzyme activities of individual DP differ considerably. Therefore the use of only one or two DP is at present not a reliable tool to analyze 5aR activity ex vivo.

If you have another explanation to the differences between
0.5 mg and 2.5 mg dutasteride ,I would truly like to hear it.

 

[Bryan]

Beside what Doctor and Bryan have said , 5ar2 is the dominant type in the dermal papilla ,but nobody said it is absolutely the only type.

I've been arguing for years that the DHT produced "locally" inside hair follicles is considerably more important than DHT that ends up in the bloodstream, but I've always been careful to make clear that I don't think serum DHT has no effect at all on hair follicles. I think that at least part of the reason for dutasteride's greater effectiveness at larger doses is obviously due to its greater inhibition of the type 1 enzyme, even if only by way of further reducing serum DHT a little.

Bryan

 

[Guest]

Bryan,

How did you come up with the numbers for dutasteride inhibition? Like I remember college quoting you and making this post that said 0.5 mg of dutasteride a day inhibits 98.5% of type II follicular dht, and 50% of type I follicular dht for example. Did Glaxo release these numbers anywhere?

Thanks.

 

[docj077]

Doctor, do you think that I am starting early enough on Avodart to not progress that m uch over the course of my life? Like say I'm NW1.5 diffuse now at 22, is it unreasonable to expect to stay NW2 or below into middle age and then go to NW3 when I get old? My dad is NW5 at 50 having never used any hair loss drugs or treatments. There are many posters on this board with the same exact same situation I'm in. I think Aplunk is one.

Also propecia has only been out for 10 years, and avodart for 4, so by the time people like me start to thin again in say 10 more years, there may be better topical/oral treatments out or possibly even HM, right?

i'm not really understanding the anti-fibrotic stuff I must admit. How do I tell if my hair is already in fibrosis? I am getting regrowth on the temples and hairline and in the crown, so is there a good chance that my follicles haven't entered that stage yet?

Also, if Avodart is holding someone's hair in place, and they don'tneed more regrowth, is there any benefit to adding minoxidil simply as an anti-fibrosis agent?

Also I heard you discussing an anti androgen topical and an anti fibrotic one. would spironolactone be a better topical anti androgen than nizoral?

I totally understand. All I wish for is to not go down more than two Norwood scales in my lifetime after starting Avodart. Is that too much to expect from it? I don't think it is. After all, even if I go to NW3 at say age 60, HM would prob be out in 40 years or if it's not, I could just get an hair transplant with my donor hair.

Last question though is what do you think is the thing that won't happen for 30 years? The progression might take 30 years? I was confused by the "may not happen for 30 years" because I wasn't sure what you were talking about.

Thanks a lot for posting in this thread. Your posts have been very informative.

JayMan, you'll be fine. By starting early, maintaining what you have, and growing back a little hair, as well, you should be fine for years to come.

Simply taking Avodart should prevent you from marching across the increasingly barren fields of Norwood for at least a few decades.

By the time you need to update your regimen, you should be in really good shape to merely continue to maintain what ever hair you have at that point. There will come a point when hair loss will be a completely reversible process. A lot of companies are making anti-fibrotic medications and topicals for diseases like psoriasis and for anti-aging creams.

Once this happens, we'll simply be able to use the same treatments for hair loss and the results will be what everyone has been dreaming of.

 

[Artista]

Doctor, do you think that I am starting early enough on Avodart to not progress that m uch over the course of my life? Like say I'm NW1.5 diffuse now at 22, is it unreasonable to expect to stay NW2 or below into middle age and then go to NW3 when I get old? My dad is NW5 at 50 having never used any hair loss drugs or treatments. There are many posters on this board with the same exact same situation I'm in. I think Aplunk is one.

Also propecia has only been out for 10 years, and avodart for 4, so by the time people like me start to thin again in say 10 more years, there may be better topical/oral treatments out or possibly even HM, right?

i'm not really understanding the anti-fibrotic stuff I must admit. How do I tell if my hair is already in fibrosis? I am getting regrowth on the temples and hairline and in the crown, so is there a good chance that my follicles haven't entered that stage yet?

Also, if Avodart is holding someone's hair in place, and they don'tneed more regrowth, is there any benefit to adding minoxidil simply as an anti-fibrosis agent?

Also I heard you discussing an anti androgen topical and an anti fibrotic one. would spironolactone be a better topical anti androgen than nizoral?

I totally understand. All I wish for is to not go down more than two Norwood scales in my lifetime after starting Avodart. Is that too much to expect from it? I don't think it is. After all, even if I go to NW3 at say age 60, HM would prob be out in 40 years or if it's not, I could just get an hair transplant with my donor hair.

Last question though is what do you think is the thing that won't happen for 30 years? The progression might take 30 years? I was confused by the "may not happen for 30 years" because I wasn't sure what you were talking about.

Thanks a lot for posting in this thread. Your posts have been very informative.

JayMan, you'll be fine. By starting early, maintaining what you have, and growing back a little hair, as well, you should be fine for years to come.

Simply taking Avodart should prevent you from marching across the increasingly barren fields of Norwood for at least a few decades.

By the time you need to update your regimen, you should be in really good shape to merely continue to maintain what ever hair you have at that point. There will come a point when hair loss will be a completely reversible process. A lot of companies are making anti-fibrotic medications and topicals for diseases like psoriasis and for anti-aging creams.

Once this happens, we'll simply be able to use the same treatments for hair loss and the results will be what everyone has been dreaming of.

Do you think it will be reversible even for folks who are now bald, or just for those who are in the early stages? Don't follicles die off after a certain amount of time and nothing but maybe a hair transplant may bring it back?

 

[Guest]

Doctor, do you think that I am starting early enough on Avodart to not progress that m uch over the course of my life? Like say I'm NW1.5 diffuse now at 22, is it unreasonable to expect to stay NW2 or below into middle age and then go to NW3 when I get old? My dad is NW5 at 50 having never used any hair loss drugs or treatments. There are many posters on this board with the same exact same situation I'm in. I think Aplunk is one.

Also propecia has only been out for 10 years, and avodart for 4, so by the time people like me start to thin again in say 10 more years, there may be better topical/oral treatments out or possibly even HM, right?

i'm not really understanding the anti-fibrotic stuff I must admit. How do I tell if my hair is already in fibrosis? I am getting regrowth on the temples and hairline and in the crown, so is there a good chance that my follicles haven't entered that stage yet?

Also, if Avodart is holding someone's hair in place, and they don'tneed more regrowth, is there any benefit to adding minoxidil simply as an anti-fibrosis agent?

Also I heard you discussing an anti androgen topical and an anti fibrotic one. would spironolactone be a better topical anti androgen than nizoral?

I totally understand. All I wish for is to not go down more than two Norwood scales in my lifetime after starting Avodart. Is that too much to expect from it? I don't think it is. After all, even if I go to NW3 at say age 60, HM would prob be out in 40 years or if it's not, I could just get an hair transplant with my donor hair.

Last question though is what do you think is the thing that won't happen for 30 years? The progression might take 30 years? I was confused by the "may not happen for 30 years" because I wasn't sure what you were talking about.

Thanks a lot for posting in this thread. Your posts have been very informative.

JayMan, you'll be fine. By starting early, maintaining what you have, and growing back a little hair, as well, you should be fine for years to come.

Simply taking Avodart should prevent you from marching across the increasingly barren fields of Norwood for at least a few decades.

By the time you need to update your regimen, you should be in really good shape to merely continue to maintain what ever hair you have at that point. There will come a point when hair loss will be a completely reversible process. A lot of companies are making anti-fibrotic medications and topicals for diseases like psoriasis and for anti-aging creams.

Once this happens, we'll simply be able to use the same treatments for hair loss and the results will be what everyone has been dreaming of.

Thanks a ton Doctor. You have no idea how great your post was to read. I feel SO much better about my hair now and i'm not going to obsess anymore. I was thinking that the Avodart might wear off in 5 years or something possibly and I might end up NW5 like my dad at 50, but knowing that I won't ever reach the later Norwood stages is a huge relief for me. I'm just going to keep taking that pill and add minoxidil if I'm not satisfied.

Again, thanks for the great post. You're a true asset to the boards. I've been helping people on here for months but without a doubt, your post was the best and most helpful one for ME that I've ever read.

JayMan

 

[LookingGood!]

Doctor, do you think that I am starting early enough on Avodart to not progress that m uch over the course of my life? Like say I'm NW1.5 diffuse now at 22, is it unreasonable to expect to stay NW2 or below into middle age and then go to NW3 when I get old? My dad is NW5 at 50 having never used any hair loss drugs or treatments. There are many posters on this board with the same exact same situation I'm in. I think Aplunk is one.

Also propecia has only been out for 10 years, and avodart for 4, so by the time people like me start to thin again in say 10 more years, there may be better topical/oral treatments out or possibly even HM, right?

i'm not really understanding the anti-fibrotic stuff I must admit. How do I tell if my hair is already in fibrosis? I am getting regrowth on the temples and hairline and in the crown, so is there a good chance that my follicles haven't entered that stage yet?

Also, if Avodart is holding someone's hair in place, and they don'tneed more regrowth, is there any benefit to adding minoxidil simply as an anti-fibrosis agent?

Also I heard you discussing an anti androgen topical and an anti fibrotic one. would spironolactone be a better topical anti androgen than nizoral?

I totally understand. All I wish for is to not go down more than two Norwood scales in my lifetime after starting Avodart. Is that too much to expect from it? I don't think it is. After all, even if I go to NW3 at say age 60, HM would prob be out in 40 years or if it's not, I could just get an hair transplant with my donor hair.

Last question though is what do you think is the thing that won't happen for 30 years? The progression might take 30 years? I was confused by the "may not happen for 30 years" because I wasn't sure what you were talking about.

Thanks a lot for posting in this thread. Your posts have been very informative.

JayMan, you'll be fine. By starting early, maintaining what you have, and growing back a little hair, as well, you should be fine for years to come.

Simply taking Avodart should prevent you from marching across the increasingly barren fields of Norwood for at least a few decades.

By the time you need to update your regimen, you should be in really good shape to merely continue to maintain what ever hair you have at that point. There will come a point when hair loss will be a completely reversible process. A lot of companies are making anti-fibrotic medications and topicals for diseases like psoriasis and for anti-aging creams.

Once this happens, we'll simply be able to use the same treatments for hair loss and the results will be what everyone has been dreaming of.

Thanks a ton Doctor. You have no idea how great your post was to read. I feel SO much better about my hair now and i'm not going to obsess anymore. I was thinking that the Avodart might wear off in 5 years or something possibly and I might end up NW5 like my dad at 50, but knowing that I won't ever reach the later Norwood stages is a huge relief for me. I'm just going to keep taking that pill and add minoxidil if I'm not satisfied.

Again, thanks for the great post. You're a true asset to the boards. I've been helping people on here for months but without a doubt, your post was the best and most helpful one for ME that I've ever read.

JayMan

I have to agree it was a refreshing post but lets just hope he is right. We've come a long way in lets say the last 10 yrs. Heck these conversations werent even imaginable 10 yrs ago. I've been on finasteride since 99 religiously and am afraid to come off. My liver enzymes are perfect and have not changed since. We might be able to slow the prcess down but I do think hair gets old too in time and just dies off. So maybe not high NWs for us but some male pattern baldness progression granted technology doesnt progress which I doubt.

 

[Guest]

Doctor, do you think that I am starting early enough on Avodart to not progress that m uch over the course of my life? Like say I'm NW1.5 diffuse now at 22, is it unreasonable to expect to stay NW2 or below into middle age and then go to NW3 when I get old? My dad is NW5 at 50 having never used any hair loss drugs or treatments. There are many posters on this board with the same exact same situation I'm in. I think Aplunk is one.

Also propecia has only been out for 10 years, and avodart for 4, so by the time people like me start to thin again in say 10 more years, there may be better topical/oral treatments out or possibly even HM, right?

i'm not really understanding the anti-fibrotic stuff I must admit. How do I tell if my hair is already in fibrosis? I am getting regrowth on the temples and hairline and in the crown, so is there a good chance that my follicles haven't entered that stage yet?

Also, if Avodart is holding someone's hair in place, and they don'tneed more regrowth, is there any benefit to adding minoxidil simply as an anti-fibrosis agent?

Also I heard you discussing an anti androgen topical and an anti fibrotic one. would spironolactone be a better topical anti androgen than nizoral?

I totally understand. All I wish for is to not go down more than two Norwood scales in my lifetime after starting Avodart. Is that too much to expect from it? I don't think it is. After all, even if I go to NW3 at say age 60, HM would prob be out in 40 years or if it's not, I could just get an hair transplant with my donor hair.

Last question though is what do you think is the thing that won't happen for 30 years? The progression might take 30 years? I was confused by the "may not happen for 30 years" because I wasn't sure what you were talking about.

Thanks a lot for posting in this thread. Your posts have been very informative.

JayMan, you'll be fine. By starting early, maintaining what you have, and growing back a little hair, as well, you should be fine for years to come.

Simply taking Avodart should prevent you from marching across the increasingly barren fields of Norwood for at least a few decades.

By the time you need to update your regimen, you should be in really good shape to merely continue to maintain what ever hair you have at that point. There will come a point when hair loss will be a completely reversible process. A lot of companies are making anti-fibrotic medications and topicals for diseases like psoriasis and for anti-aging creams.

Once this happens, we'll simply be able to use the same treatments for hair loss and the results will be what everyone has been dreaming of.

Thanks a ton Doctor. You have no idea how great your post was to read. I feel SO much better about my hair now and i'm not going to obsess anymore. I was thinking that the Avodart might wear off in 5 years or something possibly and I might end up NW5 like my dad at 50, but knowing that I won't ever reach the later Norwood stages is a huge relief for me. I'm just going to keep taking that pill and add minoxidil if I'm not satisfied.

Again, thanks for the great post. You're a true asset to the boards. I've been helping people on here for months but without a doubt, your post was the best and most helpful one for ME that I've ever read.

JayMan

I have to agree it was a refreshing post but lets just hope he is right. We've come a long way in lets say the last 10 yrs. Heck these conversations werent even imaginable 10 yrs ago. I've been on finasteride since 99 religiously and am afraid to come off. My liver enzymes are perfect and have not changed since. We might be able to slow the prcess down but I do think hair gets old too in time and just dies off. So maybe not high NWs for us but some male pattern baldness progression granted technology doesnt progress which I doubt.

'


what he says confirms what i always believed. it's hard to imagine hair loss progressing fast when you've cut out 98.5% of type II follicular DHT, which is what kicks off the major balding process as well know. Ther are other androgens at play but none nearly as potent as that type II DHT. It moves along at a snails place and as a result, once on the drug, people on it don't progress more than one or two Norwood scales over their lifetime.

and by the time we start to progress a grade or two, there will probably be better stuff here like you said. propecia is only 10 years old and avodart is only 4 or 5 years old. imagine what drugs and treatments we will have 15 years from now.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,

How did you come up with the numbers for dutasteride inhibition? Like I remember college quoting you and making this post that said 0.5 mg of dutasteride a day inhibits 98.5% of type II follicular dht, and 50% of type I follicular dht for example. Did Glaxo release these numbers anywhere?

Good heavens, JayMan, that data is from all the graphs in the Gisleskog et al studies which I've been posting on all these hairloss sites for the last three or four years! Have you not even looked at them, yourself?? If not, this is the time to start. Here's the most pertinent one for you to study...it shows (among other things) the effect of various doses of dutasteride on the individual 5a-reductase enzymes:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/dutasteride2.htm
(DHT reduction versus various daily doses)

See what an AWESOME inhibitor of the type 2 enzyme dutasteride is? :shock:

Bryan

 

[LookingGood!]

Doctor, do you think that I am starting early enough on Avodart to not progress that m uch over the course of my life? Like say I'm NW1.5 diffuse now at 22, is it unreasonable to expect to stay NW2 or below into middle age and then go to NW3 when I get old? My dad is NW5 at 50 having never used any hair loss drugs or treatments. There are many posters on this board with the same exact same situation I'm in. I think Aplunk is one.

Also propecia has only been out for 10 years, and avodart for 4, so by the time people like me start to thin again in say 10 more years, there may be better topical/oral treatments out or possibly even HM, right?

i'm not really understanding the anti-fibrotic stuff I must admit. How do I tell if my hair is already in fibrosis? I am getting regrowth on the temples and hairline and in the crown, so is there a good chance that my follicles haven't entered that stage yet?

Also, if Avodart is holding someone's hair in place, and they don'tneed more regrowth, is there any benefit to adding minoxidil simply as an anti-fibrosis agent?

Also I heard you discussing an anti androgen topical and an anti fibrotic one. would spironolactone be a better topical anti androgen than nizoral?

I totally understand. All I wish for is to not go down more than two Norwood scales in my lifetime after starting Avodart. Is that too much to expect from it? I don't think it is. After all, even if I go to NW3 at say age 60, HM would prob be out in 40 years or if it's not, I could just get an hair transplant with my donor hair.

Last question though is what do you think is the thing that won't happen for 30 years? The progression might take 30 years? I was confused by the "may not happen for 30 years" because I wasn't sure what you were talking about.

Thanks a lot for posting in this thread. Your posts have been very informative.

JayMan, you'll be fine. By starting early, maintaining what you have, and growing back a little hair, as well, you should be fine for years to come.

Simply taking Avodart should prevent you from marching across the increasingly barren fields of Norwood for at least a few decades.

By the time you need to update your regimen, you should be in really good shape to merely continue to maintain what ever hair you have at that point. There will come a point when hair loss will be a completely reversible process. A lot of companies are making anti-fibrotic medications and topicals for diseases like psoriasis and for anti-aging creams.

Once this happens, we'll simply be able to use the same treatments for hair loss and the results will be what everyone has been dreaming of.

Thanks a ton Doctor. You have no idea how great your post was to read. I feel SO much better about my hair now and i'm not going to obsess anymore. I was thinking that the Avodart might wear off in 5 years or something possibly and I might end up NW5 like my dad at 50, but knowing that I won't ever reach the later Norwood stages is a huge relief for me. I'm just going to keep taking that pill and add minoxidil if I'm not satisfied.

Again, thanks for the great post. You're a true asset to the boards. I've been helping people on here for months but without a doubt, your post was the best and most helpful one for ME that I've ever read.

JayMan

I have to agree it was a refreshing post but lets just hope he is right. We've come a long way in lets say the last 10 yrs. Heck these conversations werent even imaginable 10 yrs ago. I've been on finasteride since 99 religiously and am afraid to come off. My liver enzymes are perfect and have not changed since. We might be able to slow the prcess down but I do think hair gets old too in time and just dies off. So maybe not high NWs for us but some male pattern baldness progression granted technology doesnt progress which I doubt.

'


what he says confirms what i always believed. it's hard to imagine hair loss progressing fast when you've cut out 98.5% of type II follicular DHT, which is what kicks off the major balding process as well know. Ther are other androgens at play but none nearly as potent as that type II DHT. It moves along at a snails place and as a result, once on the drug, people on it don't progress more than one or two Norwood scales over their lifetime.

and by the time we start to progress a grade or two, there will probably be better stuff here like you said. propecia is only 10 years old and avodart is only 4 or 5 years old. imagine what drugs and treatments we will have 15 years from now.

It makes sense b/c since on propecia it really has been a snails pace so to speak. I only lost alittle at the edges of my hair loss, crown is solid still. I opted for the small hair transplant with Dr Cole b/c I am vane. :roll: I hope we dont have to wait 15 yrs though.

 

[Guest]

Bryan,

How did you come up with the numbers for dutasteride inhibition? Like I remember college quoting you and making this post that said 0.5 mg of dutasteride a day inhibits 98.5% of type II follicular dht, and 50% of type I follicular dht for example. Did Glaxo release these numbers anywhere?

Good heavens, JayMan, that data is from all the graphs in the Gisleskog et al studies which I've been posting on all these hairloss sites for the last three or four years! Have you not even looked at them, yourself?? If not, this is the time to start. Here's the most pertinent one for you to study...it shows (among other things) the effect of various doses of dutasteride on the individual 5a-reductase enzymes:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/dutasteride2.htm
(DHT reduction versus various daily doses)

See what an AWESOME inhibitor of the type 2 enzyme dutasteride is? :shock:

Bryan

ah yes i have seen those before, i just forgot. i think college posted them.


yes indeed.

wow that is huge inhibition.

 

[IDOASIS]

Beside what Doctor and Bryan have said , 5ar2 is the dominant type in the dermal papilla ,but nobody said it is absolutely the only type.

I've been arguing for years that the DHT produced "locally" inside hair follicles is considerably more important than DHT that ends up in the bloodstream, but I've always been careful to make clear that I don't think serum DHT has no effect at all on hair follicles. I think that at least part of the reason for dutasteride's greater effectiveness at larger doses is obviously due to its greater inhibition of the type 1 enzyme, even if only by way of further reducing serum DHT a little.

Bryan

I remember ,I have read it few years ago.
It makes a lot of sense.


http://www.hairsite7.com/m606dutas30/_d ... 00002b.htm

But for some reason topical finasteride doesnt seem to work.
An 0.05% formulation of topical finasteride lowered the serum dihydrotestosterone concentration by up to 40% but did not regrow hair.
I think it may be because finasteride doesnt stay at the dermal papilla for long.

 

[LookingGood!]

Beside what Doctor and Bryan have said , 5ar2 is the dominant type in the dermal papilla ,but nobody said it is absolutely the only type.

I've been arguing for years that the DHT produced "locally" inside hair follicles is considerably more important than DHT that ends up in the bloodstream, but I've always been careful to make clear that I don't think serum DHT has no effect at all on hair follicles. I think that at least part of the reason for dutasteride's greater effectiveness at larger doses is obviously due to its greater inhibition of the type 1 enzyme, even if only by way of further reducing serum DHT a little.

Bryan

I remember ,I have read it few years ago.
It makes a lot of sense.


http://www.hairsite7.com/m606dutas30/_d ... 00002b.htm

But for some reason topical finasteride doesnt seem to work.
An 0.05% formulation of topical finasteride lowered the serum dihydrotestosterone concentration by up to 40% but did not regrow hair.
I think it may be because finasteride doesnt stay at the dermal papilla for long.

Well then there's where your topicals fit in ala minoxidil with AA for some or just 5% or 5% spironolactone. Question does topical spironolactone reach and effectively penetrate the dermal papilla?

 

[IDOASIS]

Topical spironolactone has a different mechanism .
Unlike topical finasteride ,spironolactone blocks the hormonal receptor sites on the hair follicles.

 

[LookingGood!]

Topical spironolactone has a different mechanism .
Unlike topical finasteride ,spironolactone blocks the hormonal receptor sites on the hair follicles.

ok what is it????

 

[LookingGood!]

So after 100 replies the question was never answered.

Are higher concentrations of minoxidil more effective in treating male pattern baldness?

We had alot of splintered conversations and great contributions from some of the noted posters but the question was never answered. Can anyone contribute?

 

[joseph49853]

So after 100 replies the question was never answered.

Are higher concentrations of minoxidil more effective in treating male pattern baldness?

We had alot of splintered conversations and great contributions from some of the noted posters but the question was never answered. Can anyone contribute?

Without any true studies, it's anyone's guess. In my opinion, there's a point of diminishing returns, and increased sides, for just about every medication, supplement, nutrient, vitamin, mineral etc. The hardest part is finding that correct balance for yourself, the sweet spot, if you will.

And don't expect science to always be much of help. There's simply isn't enough money in it for them. Although, if the pharmaceuticals had their way, you'd be taking huge death-defying mega-doses of every drug in their current lineup.