avodart and estrogen role in male pattern baldness.

[phish]

well I was siting here thinking why .5mg of dutasteride had less hair count then 2.5mg of dutasteride in hair studies. Since .5mg of dutasteride blocks 98.5 of type 2 dht, and 2.5 maybe slightly higher near 100 percent, this obviously cant be the only difference in hair counts. Most will then argue the type 1 has to be the cause, but wasn't it shown in early propecia studies that type 1 blocker didn't improve hair at all? So if its not type 1 or type 2 dht that is causing 2.5mg to have a better hair count then .5mg could it be the estrogen? Its known that the more dht blocked the more estrogen in the body, could at 2.5mg create such an estrogen environment that the extra benefit isn't from the blocked dht but the extra estrogen binding to the hair receptors? Im curious to see what peoples theories are in terms of type 1 dhts role or lack of role and estogens role. I personally think that at 2.5mg with serum levels shot down by 96-98 percent the body becomes more sensitive to estrogen along with the hair follicles so instead of dht binding to the androgen receptors estrogen does and hence the slighty better hair grown seen at 2.5 compared to .5mg of dutasteride. When we remove dht from our body we are in essence havening similar hair profiles to woman and estrogen protecting the hair and helping it grow.

 

[Bryan]

well I was siting here thinking why .5mg of dutasteride had less hair count then 2.5mg of dutasteride in hair studies. Since .5mg of dutasteride blocks 98.5 of type 2 dht, and 2.5 maybe slightly higher near 100 percent, this obviously cant be the only difference in hair counts. Most will then argue the type 1 has to be the cause, but wasn't it shown in early propecia studies that type 1 blocker didn't improve hair at all?

The key words in your question are the very last two: at all. The abstract of that study that tested MK386 in stumptailed macaques stated that by the end of the trial, hairweights in the animals getting the drug and not getting the drug were similar, and maybe it's important that the "similarity" in hairweights didn't achieve statistical significance.

So the point I'm making here is that the type 1 inhibition in that macaque trial surely must have helped at least some, but the only thing we really don't know is HOW MUCH it helped. Was it an almost imperceptible amount of help, or was it possibly a little more significant than that?

My own guess is that the main reason for dutasteride's somewhat better performance at 2.5 mg/day is indeed the extra suppression of 5a-reductase type 1, but I suppose the extra estrogenic response could be a modest factor, too.

 

[Guest]

so bryan, can you elaborate a bit on ccs's claim that you showed him studies that show propecia once a day to be as good as dutasteride 0.5 mg a day? if that's really true, i'll probably go back to finasteride, since it's cheaper and more established.

thanks

 

[phish]

so bryan, can you elaborate a bit on ccs's claim that you showed him studies that show propecia once a day to be as good as dutasteride 0.5 mg a day? if that's really true, i'll probably go back to finasteride, since it's cheaper and more established.

thanks

jay i refuse to believe propecia is even close to as effective as dutasteride .5mg. im a bodybuilder and if you visit bodybuilding forums all over the net guys running test cycles along wit dutasteride report that they did not lose any hair during cycle while the cycle before they lost on propecia. This is not just one or two cases this is every forum i visit and do a search on how people respond to dutasteride or propecia with a steroid. I do think dutasteride gives more hair growth in the average user and a lot longer hair maintenance in the long run which is important to me. There is alot a ton of long timer propecia users in bodybuilding forums who maintained on propecia then switched to dutasteride when it came out and gained even after being on 4 years of finasteride. dutasteride I believe is the young mans cure to baldness till something else comes out in 5-10 years. you often see dutasteride getting knocked all the time on this site because of users loseing ground who switched from propecia and were losing ground on propecia. those users simple dont respond to dht blockers and dht in most cases is not the reason their losing their hair. The problem with dutasteride for some people is the side affects which can easily be fixed if you learned your bodys hormones. Simple raise your test by lifting will help most with side affects such as low libido, and check your estrogen levels and take low doses of nolvadex or arimidex. bodybuilders know more about their hormone levels then the average hair loss sufferer thats why they dont get any side affects from taking huge amounts of steroids plus dutasteride plus a estrogen blocker.

 

[Guest]

yeah that was my exact reasoning phish, thanks. i definitely see a lot of unwarranted knocking of dutasteride going on.

 

[phish]

well I was siting here thinking why .5mg of dutasteride had less hair count then 2.5mg of dutasteride in hair studies. Since .5mg of dutasteride blocks 98.5 of type 2 dht, and 2.5 maybe slightly higher near 100 percent, this obviously cant be the only difference in hair counts. Most will then argue the type 1 has to be the cause, but wasn't it shown in early propecia studies that type 1 blocker didn't improve hair at all?

The key words in your question are the very last two: at all. The abstract of that study that tested MK386 in stumptailed macaques stated that by the end of the trial, hairweights in the animals getting the drug and not getting the drug were similar, and maybe it's important that the "similarity" in hairweights didn't achieve statistical significance.

So the point I'm making here is that the type 1 inhibition in that macaque trial surely must have helped at least some, but the only thing we really don't know is HOW MUCH it helped. Was it an almost imperceptible amount of help, or was it possibly a little more significant than that?

My own guess is that the main reason for dutasteride's somewhat better performance at 2.5 mg/day is indeed the extra suppression of 5a-reductase type 1, but I suppose the extra estrogenic response could be a modest factor, too.

Yea my hunch is the same, I do feel the extra estrogen cant hurt as some people think it would plus blocking type1 dht cant hurt. Now another question for the puzzle where does testerone in the hair follicle fit into the equation, If i had to guess the male pattern baldness war is 90 percent type 2 dht and 10 percent testerone in the hair follicle. estrogen is there to help the damage of testerone and is probably why most females dont lose their hair like men in their 20s and 30s that and their testerone is a lot lower.

 

[Guest]

Yea my hunch is the same, I do feel the extra estrogen cant hurt as some people think it would plus blocking type1 dht cant hurt. Now another question for the puzzle where does testerone in the hair follicle fit into the equation, If i had to guess the male pattern baldness war is 90 percent type 2 dht and 10 percent testerone in the hair follicle. estrogen is there to help the damage of testerone and is probably why most females dont lose their hair like men in their 20s and 30s that and their testerone is a lot lower.

If I had to guess, and these are just half-assed, I'd estimate more like 90% DHT from type 2, 5% DHT from type 1, and 5% other androgens(like testosterone). And I do agree with you that estrogen probably helps. So if you take 0.5 mg of dutasteride every day, you're fighting about 91% of the total war haha. Plus throw in extra estrogen and it's pretty good I think.

 

[blueshard]

Do you guys think that those who do not seem to halt their hair loss on dutasteride just have aggressive loss and need more inhibition by increasing dose of dutasteride?

 

[Guest]

I don't think anyone has a real explanation for it blueshard. We know it happens but aren't sure why. Offered explanations range from type 1 not being suppressed enough to the possible role that other androgens play in androgenetic alopecia.

 

[Timi]

Estrogen E2 is bad for the Hairs

i had never so bad Hairs as under dutasteride
all Hairs arround the Head was very thin
i am back to finasteride and the Hair get slowly better

My Face My Body is swollen from dutasteride to mutsch Estrogen

dutasteride is sh*t



Timi

 

[IBM]

estrogen is bad for hair? Explain please.

 

[blueshard]

I am just trying to figure out what someone with aggressive hair loss can do to increase their chances of stopping their hair loss.

I know it this is all speculation and has been discussed ad nauseam. But what is someone with aggressive hair loss to do? Just throw in the towel?

When I try to logically think of this and by reading on these forums it seems that we may just need more DHT inhibition and we may be sensitive to other androgens (like Jayman and Bryan have said. So maybe we need increased doses of dutasteride and someway to limit the other androgens is what we need to do.

Right now I am on 1.5 mg of dutasteride a day... this should be enough inhibition of dht, I may even increase it to 2.5 eventually. Crazy?.... I guess, but if it helps, then the quality of life is drastically improved and that is what this is all about.

I have to limit the impact of other androgens. Orally and topically there is the addition of spironolactone. I do not want to ever take oral spironolactone, but it has crossed my mind at some point.

Also, maybe those who have aggressive male pattern baldness should avoid sugar and starchy carbs as they may lead to increased inflammation at the follicle level. I am sure people will say "please provide a link that supports this assumption" I say "shut the ffffuck up" because there is so much lacking in male pattern baldness research that we HAVE to look at antedotal evidence and make judgement calls on what is causing this phenomena.

Some guys can come on here hop on treatment and then see results. I have never been one of these extremely lucky people and I am not sure that they understand how lucky they are. There needs to be guidelines for people who have aggressive male pattern baldness. Just popping a pill is not enough for a lot of people on here.

I also do not believe that throwing a buttload of topicals and making a huge regimen is going to solve everything. We have to look logically at why some people respond and why some don't. There must be something that aggressive male pattern baldness'ers can do to make their results similar to those with less aggressive male pattern baldness. It almost seems to me that there is male pattern baldness and then there is aggressive male pattern baldness.

 

[phish]

i personally think those that do not respond at all under dutasteride for a year or so their hairloss isnt from dht, but other androgens. that or their hairloss is so powerfull that they will lose under the 1.5 percent of type 2 dht still left wich i doubt. if you truly are below baseline using genuine avodart for a full year and nizoral 2-3 times a week I dont think anything will stop it your last hope could be proxiphen from dr proctor.

 

[Timi]

dutasteride and Estrogen

i see that so

one Pregnant Women becomes very good Hairs with the higher Estrogen
other Pregnant Women becomes thin Hairs from the higher Estrogen

and i think the same is by Men with dutasteride
one Men become good Hair with dutasteride and higher Estrogen
the other bad Hairs

Timi

 

[Nick4441]

Having tried finasteride and now dutasteride and not seeing benefits from DHT suppression there must be something else at work.

I had a fairly high sex drive before starting these drugs but this last year my sex drive is extremely high which I guess suggests high testosterone level.

Any thoughts or solution for suppressing the teatosterone a bit so that the DHT inhibition may be better?

On finasteride my tiredness sides were bad so I had to take a very low dose wheras on dutasteride I can take full dose with no side. On 0.5mg twice per week currently..the only reason I reduced it as hair loss seemed to be made worse, even on this dose its quite rapid worse in front where receding is bad but thinner all over.

 

[squeegee]

Testosterone increased 4.4% for Finasteride, 6.4% for 0.05mg Dutasteride, 16% for 0.1mg Dutasteride, and 27% for 0.5mg and 2.5mg Dutasteride. Although the rise in Testosterone may seem high, the Testosterone levels were almost always within normal range according to Roger S. Rittmaster, MD.

Scalp DHT measurements were also assessed for both DHT and Testosterone. Scalp DHT was decreased 27% for 0.05mg Dutasteride, similarly for Finasteride (38%) and Dutasteride 0.1mg (37%), 54% for 0.5mg, and 82% for 2.5mg Dutasteride. Rittmaster concluded that these results show that most of the DHT in the scalp comes from type 1 5-alpha reductase.

Scalp Testosterone rose 24% for Finasteride, 46% for 0.05mg Dutasteride, 44% for 0.1mg Dutasteride, 104% for 0.5mg Dutasteride, and 154% for 2.5mg Dutasteride.


Can it be the Testosterone itself in the scalp the problem with Dutasteride??

 

[Timi]

Yes
104% for 0.5mg
more Testo in the scalp more free DHT
dutasteride Inhibition is 54% in the scalp but what it makes good with the strong Inhibition makes the higher Testo Level bad
and works not better than finasteride Or even mutsch worser

and the Dangerous from dutasteride is higher Estrogen-Testo and other Enzyms

I cursed the day beginnig with dutasteride
I wished I could turn back the time befor dutasteride my Hair was good




Timi

 

[Guest]

There is no proof that the scalp testosterone increasing by 104% is bad for hair. Bryan has said this over and over again. The idea that your hair would be better off had you never taken dutasteride because of the scalp testosterone increase, Timi, just seems totally bogus.

 

[Timi]

Bryan says bla bla bla

I say dutasteride is sh*t

I see my Hair and it is worse over the full Head
and i am not allone many Men have see that dutasteride makes the Hairs ill and thin

Timi

 

[Timi]

Forget it



Timi