Azelaic Acid revisited...Again

[hairhaircomeagain]

I am again thinking on Azelaic Acid. In my correspondences with Dr. Lee, he INSISTS that Azelaic Acid is indeed a very sting DHT inhibitant. He believes its as effective as Propecia if not more. He believes its more potent than spironolactone

https://www.xandrox.com/azelaic.htm

However, most of us firmly believe that A Acid is USELESS.

I am wondering then why someone as knowledgable as Dr. L thinks that A Acid is very helpful. He believes if we use Xandrox15 we do not even need finasteride.

Are we missing something? What do you think ?

 

[powersam]

hehe you're gonna get bryan all fired up again.

 

[Old Baldy]

I am again thinking on Azelaic Acid. In my correspondences with Dr. Lee, he INSISTS that Azelaic Acid is indeed a very sting DHT inhibitant. He believes its as effective as Propecia if not more. He believes its more potent than spironolactone

https://www.xandrox.com/azelaic.htm

However, most of us firmly believe that A Acid is USELESS.

I am wondering then why someone as knowledgable as Dr. L thinks that A Acid is very helpful. He believes if we use Xandrox15 we do not even need finasteride.

Are we missing something? What do you think ?

In all my reading about male pattern baldness this could be the BIGGEST mystery I've come across when learning about treatments.

I like Doctor Lee and don't think he's lying when he tells us AA reduces the effects of androgens.

He really does believe this and it's hard for me to argue with a reputable professional.

However, like Bryan has proven with studies, AA doesn't appear to inhibit androgens (i.e., it's effect in vivo).

I'm just plain MYSTIFIED!! :? :? :?

Maybe it acts like Retin-A and scavenges free radicals enough to give some real benefit?

 

[Bryan]

Whenever I hear the expression "in deep denial", I automatically think of two names:

1) Stephen Foote

2) Dr. Richard Lee

Bryan

 

[Old Baldy]

Whenever I hear the expression "in deep denial", I automatically think of two names:

1) Stephen Foote

2) Dr. Richard Lee

Bryan

:lol: :lol: :shock:

 

[IDOASIS]

I do believe AA works ,
at least for me.

A small research done in vitro.


BACKGROUND: Although topical azelaic acid has been previously used for the treatment of alopecia, no controlled trials of azelaic acid for this condition have been conducted to date. OBJECTIVE: The goal of this study was to determine the efficacy, tolerability, and safety of azelaic acid treatment in patients with patchy alopecia areata (AA) in comparison with anthralin (dithranol) treatment. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: This study included 31 subjects with patchy AA who did not receive any treatment for at least 1 month prior to the study. Demographic and clinical characteristics of these subjects were recorded at baseline. Subjects were randomized to apply either 20% azelaic acid (15 subjects) or 0.5% anthralin (16 subjects) for 12 consecutive weeks. In a subsequent 8-week follow-up period no cream was applied. Two independent investigators performed an efficacy evaluation with clinical examination using a terminal hair regrowth score (RGS) with a scale ranging from 0 (inadequate response) to 2 (complete response) at week 20. Partial response was accepted as score 1. RESULTS: Both groups were well matched for the relevant demographic and clinical indicators affecting treatment response at baseline. All subjects completed the trial. At week 20 the RGS was 1.27 +/- 0.9 in the azelaic acid group versus 1.37 +/- 0.8 in the anthralin group (p > 0.05). A complete response was observed in 53.3% of cases in the azelaic acid group (8 of 15) compared with 56.2% (9 of 16) in the anthralin group (p > 0.05). No serious adverse events were observed in either group during the study. CONCLUSION: The present pilot study showed that the use of azelaic acid gave similar results to anthralin with regard to hair regrowth, and that it can be an effective topical therapy for patchy AA. More extensive trials are necessary, however, to reach a definitive conclusion.

 

[Bryan]

That was in vivo, not in vitro.

 

[IDOASIS]

Off course, my mistake

 

[hairhaircomeagain]

Bryan thinks AA is completely worthless. But it maybe possible that AA did nothing for him but it may help others. We all know here that not everything works for everyone. So who else believes AA is a waste ?

 

[techprof]

I believe that AA is a waste.
If it had worked, I would have had a full head of hair.
Why not a single user apply just AA alone and post pictures of success?
I was under the opinion that AA worked. Xandrox gives an illusion of a thick hair after it dries.

 

[Old Baldy]

Bryan and Techprof: You know Doctor Lee says that, based on his clinical experience with many, many patients, Xandrox performs a little better than minoxidil. combined with finasteride. treatments?!?!?!?

Put another way: He concludes that his patients have done better with Xandrox than those using a combination of finasteride. and minoxidil.

This is BY FAR the greatest mystery I've come across when reading up on male pattern baldness treatments. :hairy:

Bryan and Techprof, I'm just a layman and when I read this type of statement from a decent doctor, WTF am I supposed to think for Godsakes?

It's got to be more than denial Bryan? I mean, he says they do better with minoxidil. and AA than with minoxidil. and finasteride.?! :? :? :?

(And you know as well as I do Bryan and Techprof, Doctor Lee is not a liar.)

Maybe this is just one area of treatments I'll NEVER understand.

 

[hairhaircomeagain]

Thats what I feel. I completely agree with techprof and Bryan that AA is a waste coz I think these guys know their sh*t. But then again in my email conversations with Dr. Lee ( this man knows his sh*t too and better than any other person I guess ) he stresses and continues to do so, that using Zandrox
will completely eliminate the need for finasteride.

Now how can I not believe a doctor who has researched so much and is believed to be an honest person by vast of the majority here.
OTOH, Bryan and techprof have used this stuff and it clearly not helped them.

Do you guys think it was completely useless or did it atleast help maintain.

techprof -- Hows recovery going ?

 

[Felk]

Bryan and Techprof: You know Doctor Lee says that, based on his clinical experience with many, many patients, Xandrox performs a little better than minoxidil. combined with finasteride. treatments?!?!?!?

Put another way: He concludes that his patients have done better with Xandrox than those using a combination of finasteride. and minoxidil.

This is BY FAR the greatest mystery I've come across when reading up on male pattern baldness treatments. :hairy:

Bryan and Techprof, I'm just a layman and when I read this type of statement from a decent doctor, WTF am I supposed to think for Godsakes?

It's got to be more than denial Bryan? I mean, he says they do better with minoxidil. and AA than with minoxidil. and finasteride.?! :? :? :?

(And you know as well as I do Bryan and Techprof, Doctor Lee is not a liar.)

Maybe this is just one area of treatments I'll NEVER understand.

Ok now i'm intrigued

How much more expensive is the xandrox? if it was only a little more, then i would consider using it if i started minoxidil, just it case.

 

[Goingat20]

600 Standard Xandrox 5%, 65 mL = 33.95

500 Standard Minoxidil 5%, 65 mL = 16.95

 

[techprof]

hairhair,
I am slowly feeling better after the hair transplant.

Oldbaldy, I hate to say this but can Dr. Lee justify 100% increase in cost from minoxidil to xandrox. Does it mean that aa grows same amount of hair as 5% minoxidil?

As Bryan suggested to someone else it is easy to test AA. One can mark a small circle in arms or chest with thick body hair and apply AA twice a day. (The user should not be on finasteride or dutasteride).

If AA really works against DHT the body hair should thin in few months. I am pretty sure it won't.

I believe this is what happened with Dr.Lee and AA. He devlops various minoxidil topicals in various vehicles. He realized that higher concn. minoxidil might work better. (this might be true).

To make a high concn. minoxidil he needs acidic environment. He looked up various acids. AA has some in-vitro study against dht. So he used AA for making 15% xandrox.

If 15% xandrox is better then it is probably because of higher concentration or higher alcohol content.

OTOH, AA might help minoxidil pentrate a little better somehow resulting in faster results (may not be better in the long run).

Just my cents.
He may not be deliberatly lying, but he is in denial.

There are many hair transplant doctors out there who still think nizoral is only for anti dandruff, so Dr. Lee refuses to learn more about AA or he probably thinks that if he backtracks from what he thought and advocated in the past, he is probably afraid that his reputation will be lost and he will lose his patients.

Just imagine yourself in his situation. You create a product which you believed works. Then you realize it doesn't work as suggested and intended. What do you do?

If I were him, I will be honest and accept my mistakes. But you can't expect everyone to accept their mistakes especially when your reputation and business is at stake.

 

[hairhaircomeagain]

Hi techprof,
Good luck with the recovery.
What you have written makes sense.
For this part

Just imagine yourself in his situation. You create a product which you believed works. Then you realize it doesn't work as suggested and intended. What do you do?

If I were him, I will be honest and accept my mistakes. But you can't expect everyone to accept their mistakes especially when your reputation and business is at stake.

I agree that if he realises that it was a mistake on his part he will not come out and accept it. But atleast he wont push it. I mean if I declare something and then come to know I was wrong, I will try not to push it. Dr. Lee pushes it coz I believe either he has still not come to find out that it simply does not work or HE IS RIGHT.

But I think what you said that its probably just the higher concentration of minoxidil in Xandrox thats working and not the AA sounds plausible.

 

[Old Baldy]

Techprof: What you say about how the mistake could have been made is possible. Can't argue with what you said.

However, if he knows he made a mistake and doesn't admit it, then he is a liar. I don't think he is a liar. (I mean, he wrote in his website that his new 12.5 percent lotion was unacceptable when he tried to make large commercial quantities. He admitted this problem and apologized to everyone.)

Like Hairhair said, you let it die a quiet death. If you don't, you're simply a liar IMHO.

 

[Bryan]

Now how can I not believe a doctor who has researched so much and is believed to be an honest person by vast of the majority here.

OTOH, Bryan and techprof have used this stuff and it clearly not helped them.

I want to emphasize here that I have NEVER EVER used Xandrox. I would never base my criticism of a product on just my personal experience with it, because I know full well that different people can have a range of results with it. My criticism of Dr. Lee's Xandrox (azelaic acid, to be more specific) is based on the science behind it, and the experimental evidence. It's also based on Dr. Lee's extremely defensive attitude that he displayed when he argued the issue with me and my buddy Dave001. Dave and I were both aghast at his evasive manner and unwillingness to acknowledge the evidence. That makes me question somewhat his overall honesty.

Bryan

 

[Old Baldy]

Bryan: I read the posted exchange you had with Doctor Lee a while back and it was "weird". No doubt about that. He definitely didn't answer your question directly. All he had to say was "yes, but in my clinical experience AA is a good treatment".

However, I just can't bring myself to think of him as dishonest in any way. Maybe I'm being naive. I just like the guy and think he is very reputable.

 

[techprof]

to Dr. Lee's credit his customer service is the best.
He sends his stuff to me in the east coast in 2 days for 3-4$ shipping. He doesn't charge for handling (the only hairloss doctor I know of).
Sometimes he charges less for shipping than what the shipment originally costs.