BBC news story about propecia?

Mens Rea

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joseph49853 said:
Of all the hairloss forums I frequent, Hairlosstalk is by far the most aggressive in its push for finasteride and dutasteride, just one reason why I rarely visit any longer. Although, this forum is just a mere slice of a world population brainwashed over the past 80-100 years into believing the dogma of patentable medicine's divinity. As an ex-finateride sufferer, taking almost 1.5 years to make a recovery, I just wonder if Merck can contain the complete truth long enough to outlive their patent.

yes

some spastic talked me into going back on the drug over there he told me not to look at propeciahelp as its fake etc. stupid me for listeningn to that sh*t.

anyway, have you documented your recovery on propeciahelp? could you maybe post or PM me your path, how you recovered, any assistance, etc? Would greatly apprecaite it mate.
 

Ende

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Colin297 said:
I know what you meant Enden but Dr Crisler and a those others listed are as almost as equally involved. Dr Crisler probably more so.

The symptoms are becoming accepted amongst these doctors but they still have varying approaches and theories.
Would you care to explain then, just a short note for each of them, to get an idea of their view.
 

HT55

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So how does a short story about one guy show the sides are more than 2% ?

Maybe they should write a story about me, I have been taking Propecia since 1997 with amazing results and ZERO SIDES , at age 42 I can bench press close to double my bodyweight and can have sex 3-4 times a day EASY .


Find any common drug for high blood pressure or basically anything and search around the internet and you will find people complaing about side effects from that drug.

The thing people forget is everyone acts differently to any given drug but the people who don't get sides don't start threads saying they are fine.

I believe the Propecia sides are real in some people and I'm not reccomending ANYONE TAKE PROPECIA but to make a decision based on that article is foolish.
 

Wuffer

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I agree with what is being said, this article means nothing.. Honestly, I wouldn't even consider this an article. Like they said, the guy is just claiming his problems were caused by finasteride, but it could have been anything. There have been absolutely no documented medical cases of this being caused by finasteride, and this from millions of people taking the drug! It just isn't going to happen to you. Hell, people have more serious reactions and can even die from Advil or Tylenol!

If anyone has ever been on an SSRI (antidepressant) for an extended period of time, you will understand how horrible side effects can be. Many SSRI's have expected sexual side effects in over 50% of people, as well as a ton of other horrible sides that are far worse than the depression itself.

I beleive in the FDA and their trials. The FDA is there to perform proper testing on new medications; have any of you actually read how hard it is to actually have something FDA approved? You should talk to your doctors and listen to the FDA; the statistics listed on the Propecia website are not a result of corporate marketing schemes; they are a direct result of extensive trials.

Seriously; talk to your doctor, take the drug and forget about it. If you don't see results in a year, stop taking it. That's it.. It's when you start stressing out and looking at your hair every hour and having constant anxiety over the whole situation that your mind starts playing games on you. Anxiety itself causes horrible sexual side effects (to say the least). Take this from someone who has been through life crippling anxiety for 5 years.
 

Ende

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I agree that people shouldn't let this article scare them, but DO NOT underestimate the drug. Some people develop secondary hypogonadism, and this side effect wasn't discovered during the trial.
 

joseph49853

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Everyone admits to having the same initial sides. Yet somehow, in only 2% they remain persistent. Alternatively, maybe the other supposed 98% become used to the new normal. Like when unemployment hits record highs, you and your friends forget what it feels like to have jobs.

The old medical shell game is to turn these studies upside down and dazzle them with the benefits, the rest leave to fineprint. Soon not having a job seems like the best possible option.

I was shocked at discovering by comparison the amount of erectile dysfunction I experienced after discontinuing finasteride. Also surprising the amount of members here who self-medicate and use Hairlosstalk to reinforce their decisions.

This forum is a Roman Colosseum where gladiators go to be jeered and die. Yet another story about finasteride and dutasteride to keep away from the regulars.


FDA Panel Rejects Prostate Drugs for CA Prevention
By Emily P. Walker, Washington Correspondent, MedPage Today
Published: December 01, 2010


SILVER SPRING, Md. -- An FDA advisory panel has voted overwhelmingly that GlaxoSmithKline's dutasteride (Avodart) and Merck's finasteride (Proscar) should not be used to prevent prostate cancer because the drugs are linked to a higher incidence of high-grade tumors.

Although the 5-alpha reductase inhibitors were shown to prevent low-risk cancers better than placebo, clinical trials painted a disturbing link between both drugs and an increased incidence of higher-risk prostate cancers.

The FDA's Oncologic Drugs Advisory Committee voted 17-0, with one member abstaining, that the risks outweigh the benefits of finasteride; and 14-2, with two members abstaining, that the risks of dutasteride outweigh the benefits.

The FDA is not required to follow the advice of its advisory committees, but it often does.

If approved to prevent cancer, the drugs could potentially be given to hundreds of thousands of otherwise healthy men with elevated PSAs who are concerned about dying from prostate cancer.

That means "we [would] use this to treat men -- not patients -- men who don't have a disease," said Richard Padzur, MD, director of oncology drugs at the FDA.

Dutasteride and finasteride are currently approved to treat benign prostatic hypertrophy, or an enlarged prostate. GlaxoSmithKline is seeking to expand dutasteride's indication to include reducing the risk of prostate cancer in men who have had a prior negative biopsy, and who have an elevated PSA.

Merck isn't seeking an expanded indication, but the company would like the label of finasteride to detail positive results of the Prostate Cancer Prevention Trial (PCPT), which demonstrated the drug's chemopreventive potential.

How to handle low-grade prostate cancer is controversial in the urology community, in part because it is unknown if the low-grade tumors would ever develop into high-grade tumors, and also because the method used to originally detect prostate cancer -- the PSA test -- is inexact.

The panel agreed that a reduction in the less-risky tumors -- which may never even turn into serious cancers -- is not a big enough benefit if the drugs may actually lead to life-threatening cancers. In addition, the standards need to be much higher for a chemopreventive agent.

Both GlaxoSmithKline and Merck argued at the meeting that their trials didn't show the drugs lead to serious prostate cancers and offered other explanations for the higher number of high-grade cancers in the treatment arms.

If the drugs were intended to treat terminal cancer patients, some risks might be tolerated, said Patrick Walsh, MD, a urologist who has studied 5-alpha reductase inhibitors for 40 years.

"If you're going to give normally healthy people a drug, there need to be no side effects," said Walsh, who was brought in by the FDA as a guest speaker.

The panel spent much of Wednesday discussing the Reduction by Dutasteride of Prostate Cancer Events (REDUCE) trial, which randomized 8,200 high-risk men ages 50 to 75 from 250 sites in 42 countries to receive either dutasteride or placebo.

The men took dutasteride daily for four years and had prostate biopsies at two years and at the end of the study. REDUCE found that men assigned to dutasteride had a 23% lower risk of being diagnosed with biopsy-detectable prostate cancer when compared with men on placebo (P<0.0001).

The panel agreed with an earlier FDA assessment that the reduction in cancer risk was driven by a reduction in low-risk cancers.

"This study met an un-need," said panelist Patrick Loehrer, MD, an oncologist who is the director of the Melvin and Bren Simon Cancer Center at Indiana University. "It decreased the risk of low-grade cancers."

The panel also examined data from Merck's Prostate Cancer Prevention Trial (PCPT) which randomized nearly 19,000 healthy men over 55 to receive finasteride or placebo.

At the end of the PCPT, 9,060 men had prostate needle biopsy data available for analysis, and prostate cancer was detected in 803 (18.4%) men receiving finasteride and 1,147 (24.4%) men receiving placebo.

Taken together, data from both trials showed the 5 alpha-reductase inhibitors both provided a statistically significant reduction in the cumulative incidence of prostate cancer after four years (REDUCE) and seven years (PCPT) of treatment with dutasteride and finasteride, respectively.

Both trials also found an unexpected increase in the incidence of high-risk prostate cancers among men receiving the 5-alpha reductase inhibitors.

In the REDUCE trial, 29 high-grade tumors were found among patients being treated with dutasteride compared with 19 in the placebo group. In the PCPT, there was a 26% decrease in all prostate cancers but an absolute increase of 1.3% in the incidence of high-grade tumors.

According to an FDA statistician, if 200 men are treated with the drugs, it is expected that there will be one additional tumor with a Gleason score of eight to 10.

And the benefit didn't appear great when boiled down to a statistical snippet: 60 men would need to be treated with one of the 5 alpha-reductase inhibitors in order for one man to avoid developing a clinically relevant prostate cancer, the statistician said.

In a prepared statement, GlaxoSmithKline expressed disappointment with the panel's decision on dutasteride and said it would work with the FDA to answer any questions as the FDA completes its review of the drug.

Meanwhile, a new study published in Journal of the American Medical Association yesterday supports the school of thought in the urology community that active surveillance -- not treatment -- leads to a better quality of life in men with low-risk prostate cancer.
 

Mens Rea

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Enden said:
Colin297 said:
I know what you meant Enden but Dr Crisler and a those others listed are as almost as equally involved. Dr Crisler probably more so.

The symptoms are becoming accepted amongst these doctors but they still have varying approaches and theories.
Would you care to explain then, just a short note for each of them, to get an idea of their view.

Well here is some quotes from Dr Crisler:

The video pretty much tells the story: many of these gents come in with all the symptoms of hypogonadism, but their levels are just fine. It's an awful situation. If you personally have not suffered this horrible problem, I am very happy for you. But you may very well in the future: many of the guys who come to me used Propecia--at 1mg QD--for extended periods of time before the bottom fell out.

I honestly do not know the exact mechanism which causes this problem, but will sleep much better if we can ever figure it out. I probably have treated a couple hundred guys for this (with varying but generally good success), and it is still largely a mystery to me. If anyone has made any progress, please email me with what you have found out.

In the meantime, I have several different protocols I try, one after the other, in hopes one will take hold. In case it helps anyone, first I use one of the HPTA-restart protocols I have developed (like the steroid users employ). If none of them work, we are left with TRT--for life. Of note, and this is a HUGE point, it often takes testosterone levels well above normal range to get these guys feeling right again. Again, I do not know why.

Of note, using estrogen lowering drugs/supplements to increase testosterone is a huge mistake. They are very bad for Lipid Profile, bone mineral density, brain function, endothelial function, etc. That is what happens when you lower estrogen too far.

I hope this information may help someone here. All the best to you.


Kim (my Exec. Sec.) told me yesterday 4 guys made appointments to become patients, and we sent out 7 more new patient information emails--all because of this very thread.

It would seem there are many more gentlemen suffering finasteride side effects here than first appear.

For the rest of you, PLEASE take note. If you have not started a drug of that class, don't. The risks are just too great.


"It's important to realize and appreciate the 5-AR enzyme affects hormonal conversions well beyond T->DHT. That means many other hormones are affected by finasteride as well. Metabolization of all manner of the body's components, and even nutrients, are then altered. I suspect interplay between these various hormones is at the real root of the cause of these individuals ill and permanent (unless effectively treated) side effects.

While evaluating these patients, the THF/5-a-THF ratio is the best indicator of actual intracellular 5-AR activity. In many of the finasteride victims I have found there is a disjoint between DHT/T ratio in the serum (and therefore urine, which is how I assess hormonal milieu) and intracellular 5-AR activity. This is unexpected. Compartmentalization seems to be an issue, as is blood/brain barrier. "



That's only some of it here has a wealth of stuff. Crisler is on our side!

I know you'll point to him saying he isn't sure of the exact cause etc etc but since those quotes seems to have refined his approach. Must be with practice given he has hundreds of PFS patients!! Dr Shippen makes certain omissions of his own, too as he will also tell you - his results are all over the place and he doesn't know why.
 

Mens Rea

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Wuffer said:
I agree with what is being said, this article means nothing.. Honestly, I wouldn't even consider this an article. Like they said, the guy is just claiming his problems were caused by finasteride, but it could have been anything. There have been absolutely no documented medical cases of this being caused by finasteride, and this from millions of people taking the drug! It just isn't going to happen to you. Hell, people have more serious reactions and can even die from Advil or Tylenol!

This really irritates me in the extreme. "Just because he is claiming it was the finasteride". Seriously man. In the people who get the bad sides they all talk about their system "crashing" and their experiences are all similar and pretty unique to "Post Finasteride Syndrome". Don't waste your time with this one many endos are long past this issue so please dont rewind us back 20 years just due to personal ignorance as its a disservice to everyone.

If anyone has ever been on an SSRI (antidepressant) for an extended period of time, you will understand how horrible side effects can be. Many SSRI's have expected sexual side effects in over 50% of people, as well as a ton of other horrible sides that are far worse than the depression itself.

I beleive in the FDA and their trials. The FDA is there to perform proper testing on new medications; have any of you actually read how hard it is to actually have something FDA approved? You should talk to your doctors and listen to the FDA; the statistics listed on the Propecia website are not a result of corporate marketing schemes; they are a direct result of extensive trials.

It's difficult to attain FDA approval, absolutely. But, so what? Do you follow medicine? There are various drugs that has given many users serious side effects (inc death) which passed all these tests and were quickly taken off the shelf. A lesser known drug like propecia won't get as much attention but the situation is real. Even if people died it would be hard to pin it on propecia. The burden of proof always seems to be on the victim for some reason.

And don't make me laugh at the "extensive" trials. The limitations to their study is notorious (but I bet you don't know anything about the study, do you?)

Merck are in a mad panic over what's going on, make no mistake about it.

Seriously; talk to your doctor, take the drug and forget about it. If you don't see results in a year, stop taking it. That's it.. It's when you start stressing out and looking at your hair every hour and having constant anxiety over the whole situation that your mind starts playing games on you. Anxiety itself causes horrible sexual side effects (to say the least). Take this from someone who has been through life crippling anxiety for 5 years.

Most doctor's know VERY little about propecia. Even most endos are limited, very limited in this domain.

So that is generic, almost useless throw-away advice.


I'm happy for you mate, but most of us will naturally underestimate the situation if they're not part of it. You are , and i know i did.
 

Ende

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Dr. Crisler is obviously reluctant to use aromatase inhibitors, which are essential for shifting ratios. About high TRT doses; a lot of conversion is happening at supraphysiological levels, which might shift ratios. I think it's weird that he doesn't mind this approach, as this affects your body a lot more than an AI.

Hormone levels are all over the place because we have imbalanced endocrine systems, and the natural hormone levels varies a lot to begin with. However, the worst case scenarios seems to be identical; low, but normal testosterone level.
 

Mens Rea

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Enden said:
Dr. Crisler is obviously reluctant to use aromatase inhibitors, which are essential for shifting ratios. About high TRT doses; a lot of conversion is happening at supraphysiological levels, which might shift ratios. I think it's weird that he doesn't mind this approach, as this affects your body a lot more than an AI.

Hormone levels are all over the place because we have imbalanced endocrine systems, and the natural hormone levels varies a lot to begin with. H

As i said he's refined his approach. He mentioned lipid profiles for instance; aromasin doesn't affect these. Nor is there any rebound as you know. I know for a fact Crisler is actively prescribing aromasin.

However, the worst case scenarios seems to be identical; low, but normal testosterone level.


Agree. These cases all follow to PFS process :


The following outlines the common pattern experienced by those who suffer from this syndrome:


1. brief resolution of side effects within 10-20 days after quitting Finasteride (as 5AR2 enzyme activity/DHT supposedly "returns" to baseline), followed by

2. a complete endocrine system crash whereby Testosterone, LH and FSH hormones plummet to hypogonadal levels within weeks/months of discontinuation, along with numerous other imbalances such as elevated estradiaol, TSH, Prolactin, SHBG; below range 3a-diol-G levels; below range Vitamin D levels, followed by

3. simultaneous & rapid emergence of a commonly shared hypogonadal symptomatic profile, followed by

4. ongoing, irreversible, persistent side effects with little to variable symptomatic improvement -- even years after quitting

5. attempts to restore androgen levels/androgenic response in a number of ex-Finasteride users (via drugs such as clomiphene citrate, human chorionic gonadotropin, Testosterone replacement therapy, estrogen/prolactin/TSH management protocols etc) often meet with little to variable longterm success

6. in some men, supraphysiological dosages of androgen such as Testosterone (androgel, cypionates) and DHT (andactrim gel, proviron oral DHT, masteron propionate) typically only provide a variable or brief improvement/response -- often followed by a return to baseline or worsening of hypogonadal symptoms once again within hours, days or weeks.

The Post-Finasteride Syndrome is thus a clinical condition of permanent sexual, mental and physical side effects which do not resolve after quitting the drug, most often accompanied by an acquired form of secondary hypogonadism and post-drug loss of androgenic action, which remains variably resistant to hormonal treatments aimed at restoring Testosterone/DHT's effects in the male body to pre-drug virility levels.
 

Ende

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According to my own research and latest conclusion, suppressing the estrogen level with a potent AI for at least 3 months, would probably solve the ratio problem. It would create an androgenic enviroment, and give the endogenous DHT level a chance to raise. I believe that the most important role for DHT in a grown man, is to maintain the testosterone/estrogen ratio. Many patients are dealing with DHT deficiency, and that's why they all fail with treatments which stimulates the testosterone production and TRT.
 

Mens Rea

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Enden said:
According to my own research and latest conclusion, suppressing the estrogen level with a potent AI for at least 3 months, would probably solve the ratio problem. It would create an androgenic enviroment, and give the endogenous DHT level a chance to raise. I believe that the most important role for DHT in a grown man, is to maintain the testosterone/estrogen ratio. Many patients are dealing with DHT deficiency, and that's why they all fail with treatments which stimulates the testosterone production and TRT.

I agree for sure.

However its not that simple for hypogondal patients as their systems have shut down. This is why Crisler uses HPA restarting protocols (which usually will include AI's' if estrogen is a problem!).

The problem faced is that the lack of DHT makes the aromatase cyclical production EXTREMELY high. Short of injecting exogenous DHT or testosterone the only way to rapidly increase DHT convertible testosterone is HcG. THe time between between aromatase cyclical production periods will get shorter and shorter which im told can make thigns very difficult. An AI alone will often prove futile you need stimuli to compliment it, probably in the form of a SERM (Clomid/Nolv or both) to stimulate LH and FSH and/or hCg or even TRT to give the body a chance to reset. The AI alone will often distress the situation for these guys as they need instantaneous additional test (and DHT) to help assist a recovery .

Another challenge is that low DHT/high e2 signals inflammatory cytokines. Using an AI in some cases will cause a rapid drop in immunity which can drive those cytokines wa up which can damage testicular tissue and such like, permanently. I don't know alot about this though.
 

mpbsux20

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I think a few years from now[once the Merck patent is over],a lot more truth about finasteride will be revealed to the general public.
 

Ende

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Colin297 said:
The problem faced is that the lack of DHT makes the aromatase cyclical production EXTREMELY high. Short of injecting exogenous DHT or testosterone the only way to rapidly increase DHT convertible testosterone is HcG. THe time between between aromatase cyclical production periods will get shorter and shorter which im told can make thigns very difficult. An AI alone will often prove futile you need stimuli to compliment it, probably in the form of a SERM (Clomid/Nolv or both) to stimulate LH and FSH and/or hCg or even TRT to give the body a chance to reset. The AI alone will often distress the situation for these guys as they need instantaneous additional test (and DHT) to help assist a recovery .
In case of secondary hypogonadism induced by estrogen, an AI would, as you already know well, lower the estrogen level by blocking conversion from testosterone to estrogen, and thereby increase the testosterone- and DHT level. Eventually, your testosterone- and DHT level will be where it should be, with estrogen under control, once again. The body will recover by feedback mechanism, when using an AI. Check out the experiments done with Arimidex, on men.
 

Mens Rea

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Enden said:
Colin297 said:
The problem faced is that the lack of DHT makes the aromatase cyclical production EXTREMELY high. Short of injecting exogenous DHT or testosterone the only way to rapidly increase DHT convertible testosterone is HcG. THe time between between aromatase cyclical production periods will get shorter and shorter which im told can make thigns very difficult. An AI alone will often prove futile you need stimuli to compliment it, probably in the form of a SERM (Clomid/Nolv or both) to stimulate LH and FSH and/or hCg or even TRT to give the body a chance to reset. The AI alone will often distress the situation for these guys as they need instantaneous additional test (and DHT) to help assist a recovery .

In case of secondary hypogonadism induced by estrogen, an AI would, as you already know well, lower the estrogen level by blocking conversion from testosterone to estrogen, and thereby increase the testosterone- and DHT level. Eventually, your testosterone- and DHT level will be where it should be, with estrogen under control, once again. The body will recover by feedback mechanism, when using an AI. Check out the experiments done with Arimidex, on men.


It's usually not that simple with hypogondal men - they need more stimuli.

We both know AI's, logically, will increase testosterone via inhibiting estrogen. In practice the water is more muddied for these guys. You have to remember often their LH levels etc are real low (HPTA shutdown!) so a simple inhibition on estrogen isn't going to give the necessary "kick start" stimulation that their testosterone production requires and therefore DHT levels will not really be enhanced by an appreciable level either. This is why AI's are not used for testosterone enhancers. That's not their job. So what can happen with these guys is that they are inhibiting their estrogen but their testosterone production is still strained often creating even more HPTA confusion.

HPA restarts are different. AI's on a normal sytem is a different bet although usage of SERM's alongside can help reset for anyone with PFS.
 

HT55

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mpbsux20 said:
I think a few years from now[once the Merck patent is over],a lot more truth about finasteride will be revealed to the general public.



The Merck patent on Proscar ( Finasteride) expired 4 1/2 years ago, Propecia's expires in the next few years but I doubt you will hear anything just because the patent expired.
 

Ende

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Colin297 said:
Enden said:
In case of secondary hypogonadism induced by estrogen, an AI would, as you already know well, lower the estrogen level by blocking conversion from testosterone to estrogen, and thereby increase the testosterone- and DHT level. Eventually, your testosterone- and DHT level will be where it should be, with estrogen under control, once again. The body will recover by feedback mechanism, when using an AI. Check out the experiments done with Arimidex, on men.
It's usually not that simple with hypogondal men - they need more stimuli.

We both know AI's, logically, will increase testosterone via inhibiting estrogen. In practice the water is more muddied for these guys. You have to remember often their LH levels etc are real low (HPTA shutdown!) so a simple inhibition on estrogen isn't going to give the necessary "kick start" stimulation that their testosterone production requires and therefore DHT levels will not really be enhanced by an appreciable level either. This is why AI's are not used for testosterone enhancers. That's not their job. So what can happen with these guys is that they are inhibiting their estrogen but their testosterone production is still strained often creating even more HPTA confusion.

HPA restarts are different. AI's on a normal sytem is a different bet although usage of SERM's alongside can help reset for anyone with PFS.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15001605
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18616708
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19820017

This is the effect on hypogonadal men above 60 years old...

SERM's blocks the estrogen receptors on the HPTA (manipulating the feedback mechanism), and thereby increases the testosterone production. In our case, it would raise testosterone and estrogen - which suppresses DHT further. Experiments shows that an AI is enough to restore the endocrine system in case of estrogen suppression, and that the HPTA is in natural control all the time.
 
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