Breezula update 2022 June apparently they are doing trials very soon

[badnewsbearer]

is it not crazy that there have been two large trials on hundreds of people showing no sexual sides and yet here on this forum it seems to be a totally normal occurrence?

the pattern is quite similar as with pyrilutamide, none of these sides in the studies but all over the internet during experiments. even if you could argue that a 100 person trial is too small to identify all side effects, the fact that the incidence is so high on these forums means that someone is definitely making sh*t up. its either Kintor or the people who sell this stuff online like Anagenic. I find it hard to believe that the studies are tampered with as CD is already approved for children with acne and pyrilutamide is applying for phase 2 in the US where such a fluke would most definitely be apparent. also they would ruin their finances by going forward with a product they know causes these issues.

its makes no sense for sides to be so rare that they dont show up in the study and then int he forum its super common. if one guy had them that'd be okay but the fact that about 50% seem to have them shows that either you all got fake stuff, the studies have actively been tampered with( because such a strong disagreement cannot be just a poor set up, you have to make an effort to not detect them)

its even more strange because nobody on the internet has ever reported on results with CB. so its odd that it would have a powerful enough effect on brain when it cant except any meaningful effect on the skin where it is directly applied especially because it metabolizes quite fast, not in the liver but the serum in fact so as soon as it hits the blood stream, making the amount in the brain and genital skin even less.

also especially because you all seem to be using a lower dose than the studies.


fact is that the majority on reddit does not report results on either of the medication. additionally, people who got sides on finasteride seem to mostly tolerate CB. but hair loss talk is where the 1/1000 seem to be all at

 

[Min0]

is it not crazy that there have been two large trials on hundreds of people showing no sexual sides and yet here on this forum it seems to be a totally normal occurrence?

the pattern is quite similar as with pyrilutamide, none of these sides in the studies but all over the internet during experiments. even if you could argue that a 100 person trial is too small to identify all side effects, the fact that the incidence is so high on these forums means that someone is definitely making sh*t up. its either Kintor or the people who sell this stuff online like Anagenic. I find it hard to believe that the studies are tampered with as CD is already approved for children with acne and pyrilutamide is applying for phase 2 in the US where such a fluke would most definitely be apparent. also they would ruin their finances by going forward with a product they know causes these issues.

its makes no sense for sides to be so rare that they dont show up in the study and then int he forum its super common. if one guy had them that'd be okay but the fact that about 50% seem to have them shows that either you all got fake stuff, the studies have actively been tampered with( because such a strong disagreement cannot be just a poor set up, you have to make an effort to not detect them)

its even more strange because nobody on the internet has ever reported on results with CB. so its odd that it would have a powerful enough effect on brain when it cant except any meaningful effect on the skin where it is directly applied especially because it metabolizes quite fast, not in the liver but the serum in fact so as soon as it hits the blood stream, making the amount in the brain and genital skin even less.

also especially because you all seem to be using a lower dose than the studies.


fact is that the majority on reddit does not report results on either of the medication. additionally, people who got sides on finasteride seem to mostly tolerate CB. but hair loss talk is where the 1/1000 seem to be all at

I think when it comes to subjective sides that are hard to mesure, it may be ignored by the trial participants.

 

[Min0]

I dont understand this sentence. Firs to say that CB killed your libido, and then you say that you are horny since you use CB.

Anyway, something super strange is happening to me. I don't have hairloss since I stopped CB. Usually when I suffer side effects with a drug and I stop, my shedding start after 3-4 days and I recover my libido after 7-14 days. Now I have stopped since 31th of December 2022, and I didn't even get a hair on my hand in the shower. I don't know what the hell is going on. Also 0 libido.

Any updates ?

 

[Modill]

Hi @Min0
I haven't used CB for 19 days, and my chest pressure disappeared on the 14th day.

I have more or less libido, some days better than others, but I don't recover, but the incredible thing is that not a single hair falls out in the shower, I don't understand anything

- Either CB or some CB metabolite is still in my body, which I don't think it is.
- Or I'm missing some hormone that doesn't show up in the analysis.
- Or the anti-DHT shampoo I use is super potent.

This has never really happened to me before.

The tests I have done are fine, the only thing that is very very low is the alkaline phosphatase, which I have read is what can cause heart problems. Tomorrow I have an appointment with the doctor to have my tests checked.

 

[Min0]

Hi @Min0
I haven't used CB for 19 days, and my chest pressure disappeared on the 14th day.

I have more or less libido, some days better than others, but I don't recover, but the incredible thing is that not a single hair falls out in the shower, I don't understand anything

- Either CB or some CB metabolite is still in my body, which I don't think it is.
- Or I'm missing some hormone that doesn't show up in the analysis.
- Or the anti-DHT shampoo I use is super potent.

This has never really happened to me before.

The tests I have done are fine, the only thing that is very very low is the alkaline phosphatase, which I have read is what can cause heart problems. Tomorrow I have an appointment with the doctor to have my tests checked.

So your hormonal tests came out normal ?

 

[badnewsbearer]

Hi @Min0
I haven't used CB for 19 days, and my chest pressure disappeared on the 14th day.

I have more or less libido, some days better than others, but I don't recover, but the incredible thing is that not a single hair falls out in the shower, I don't understand anything

- Either CB or some CB metabolite is still in my body, which I don't think it is.
- Or I'm missing some hormone that doesn't show up in the analysis.
- Or the anti-DHT shampoo I use is super potent.

This has never really happened to me before.

The tests I have done are fine, the only thing that is very very low is the alkaline phosphatase, which I have read is what can cause heart problems. Tomorrow I have an appointment with the doctor to have my tests checked.

or you fundamentally do not understand how the hair cycle actually works. I vote for this one. if you would then there would be a few explanations for this. I also dont shed for many months after stopping finasteride. its because on finasteride the hair was able to get into the anagen phase due to excretion of anagen promoting by the DHT protected dermal papilla cells. but hairs that just entered anagen do not go into catagen immediately just because of a rise of catagen promoting signals, that can take time. not saying that is definitely the answer but I am observing the same thing in my scalp and that is the most likely explanation. it does not mean that there is any drug in your body, highly unlikely in fact(in my case e.g dht is back 100% for many weeks now) and this is not a permanent effect because the newly established anagen phase will be shortened since androgen signaling is back.

also shedding is not necessarily a good indicator for progression of hair loss. most of the miniaturization happens in between the transition of hair cycles and that can happen even if you shed like a person without Androgenetic Alopecia

so I think on the anti androgen your hairs where promoted into anagen phase somewhat synchronically and that will hold a while but since the signaling is back, catagen will be introduced a lot quicker than if you were still on the drug and so the shedding will start again sooner (or later as in your case)

 

[Modill]

or you fundamentally do not understand how the hair cycle actually works. I vote for this one. if you would then there would be a few explanations for this. I also dont shed for many months after stopping finasteride. its because on finasteride the hair was able to get into the anagen phase due to excretion of anagen promoting by the DHT protected dermal papilla cells. but hairs that just entered anagen do not go into catagen immediately just because of a rise of catagen promoting signals, that can take time. not saying that is definitely the answer but I am observing the same thing in my scalp and that is the most likely explanation. it does not mean that there is any drug in your body, highly unlikely in fact(in my case e.g dht is back 100% for many weeks now) and this is not a permanent effect because the newly established anagen phase will be shortened since androgen signaling is back.

also shedding is not necessarily a good indicator for progression of hair loss. most of the miniaturization happens in between the transition of hair cycles and that can happen even if you shed like a person without Androgenetic Alopecia

so I think on the anti androgen your hairs where promoted into anagen phase somewhat synchronically and that will hold a while but since the signaling is back, catagen will be introduced a lot quicker than if you were still on the drug and so the shedding will start again sooner (or later as in your case)

Thank you for the explanation. I know the hair cycle, and as you said, it is true when I stopped finasteride, I need 1-2 months to see hairs in the shower again.

But when I stopped Pyri, my hairloss started again in 3 days, and quite faster than before. Since CB and Pyri has similar way of action, I was waiting for the same.

but maybe you are right and hairloss will start in 1-2 months as when I stopped finasteride.

our maybe my shampoo is the best on earth XD

 

[Modill]

So your hormonal tests came out normal ?

Yes,
Cortisol a bit low. I should have 18, but I have 6.
DHT 0,4. A bit low but enough to feel líbido.
Alkaline phosphatase, súper low. The doctor told me that there is no problem (doctors always say that, even if you are dying)
My líbido is recovering after almost 3 weeks.
@Min0 how are you? Still on Pyri?

 

[Min0]

Yes,
Cortisol a bit low. I should have 18, but I have 6.
DHT 0,4. A bit low but enough to feel líbido.
Alkaline phosphatase, súper low. The doctor told me that there is no problem (doctors always say that, even if you are dying)
My líbido is recovering after almost 3 weeks.
@Min0 how are you? Still on Pyri?

no i'm not touching that ever again. same as CB, it kills my libido instantly.
last time after 10 days or so off these drugs, i got back my usual libido. then applied pyri one more time, and that was enough to shut down my libido for another week or so. yesterday i started feeling my libido back but it's not at 100% yet.
i think the more i use these drugs the stronger its effect on my libido.

the last thing i'll try is fluridil, if that also gives me sides then it's f*****g over for me.
drugs that target the androgenic pathway to stop hairloss are just dangerous and can't be side-effect free

i'm not starting fluridil untill i recever completely from pyri and CB. perhaps i'll get a hormonal test before.

 

[Modill]

What CB dose did you use? I will start 2,5% once a day, but I already know it will will my libido as well. Anagenica told that they recommend 1%.

 

[Min0]

What CB dose did you use? I will start 2,5% once a day, but I already know it will will my libido as well. Anagenica told that they recommend 1%.

i used 2,5% but the theory on this drug is kinda flawed, it fucks with HPA axis which means even more nasty sides are possible

 

[badnewsbearer]

how is the theory flawed? because if we actually read the studies then HPA axis suppression was very rarely observed and mostly in the children. in the hair loss study out of the 300 people nobody stopped therapy because of systemic issues. so obviously it is very rare. additionally out of the 300 people, 200 used a dose 3 time more than you two, 100 of them using even 6 times a higher dose. not a single report of sexual dysfunction. and you have the nerve to call CB a "dangerous drug". people have done group buys for half a decade and its always been said that there is no sides. only recently have the reports of insane anti androgen sensitivity gone up. but lets consider this. with your 2.5% dose applied to the scalp, you will have less serum CB than the average participant of the phase 3 acne study. that study included young kids going through puberty. and it was fine for them but an adult has "total libido destruction" on 1/3rd of the dose and even there out of hundreds nobody had that? im not saying its impossible to get this but to come here and claim all kinds of things about the drug and what side effects it has because obviously its the drug and not your utterly out of the ordinary sensitive body. also consider that you are both using a different vehicle, in fact alcohol at high amounts will almost ensure that most of it will go systemic. they did not use the minoxidil vehicle thats for sure. also consider that your CB is just laced. nobody ever had results with CB so I highly doubt that if it barely works when applied locally, that it will except strong anti androgenic effects at a completely different part of the body. HPA axis could happen but its probably very unlikely at 1/3rd of the usual treatment dose

I think this should be renamed in side effect talk at this point

 

[Modill]

how is the theory flawed? because if we actually read the studies then HPA axis suppression was very rarely observed and mostly in the children. in the hair loss study out of the 300 people nobody stopped therapy because of systemic issues. so obviously it is very rare. additionally out of the 300 people, 200 used a dose 3 time more than you two, 100 of them using even 6 times a higher dose. not a single report of sexual dysfunction. and you have the nerve to call CB a "dangerous drug". people have done group buys for half a decade and its always been said that there is no sides. only recently have the reports of insane anti androgen sensitivity gone up. but lets consider this. with your 2.5% dose applied to the scalp, you will have less serum CB than the average participant of the phase 3 acne study. that study included young kids going through puberty. and it was fine for them but an adult has "total libido destruction" on 1/3rd of the dose and even there out of hundreds nobody had that? im not saying its impossible to get this but to come here and claim all kinds of things about the drug and what side effects it has because obviously its the drug and not your utterly out of the ordinary sensitive body. also consider that you are both using a different vehicle, in fact alcohol at high amounts will almost ensure that most of it will go systemic. they did not use the minoxidil vehicle thats for sure. also consider that your CB is just laced. nobody ever had results with CB so I highly doubt that if it barely works when applied locally, that it will except strong anti androgenic effects at a completely different part of the body. HPA axis could happen but its probably very unlikely at 1/3rd of the usual treatment dose

I think this should be renamed in side effect talk at this point

@badnewsbearer with all the information you have, by now I think you should know that pharmaceutical studies do not match reality.

@Min0 sadly, i think finasteride is safer than all these antiandrogens. For me, the only hope is Mane Biotech, SCUBE3, or that Bayer project whose long-term side effects we don't know.

 

[Min0]

how is the theory flawed? because if we actually read the studies then HPA axis suppression was very rarely observed and mostly in the children. in the hair loss study out of the 300 people nobody stopped therapy because of systemic issues. so obviously it is very rare. additionally out of the 300 people, 200 used a dose 3 time more than you two, 100 of them using even 6 times a higher dose. not a single report of sexual dysfunction. and you have the nerve to call CB a "dangerous drug". people have done group buys for half a decade and its always been said that there is no sides. only recently have the reports of insane anti androgen sensitivity gone up. but lets consider this. with your 2.5% dose applied to the scalp, you will have less serum CB than the average participant of the phase 3 acne study. that study included young kids going through puberty. and it was fine for them but an adult has "total libido destruction" on 1/3rd of the dose and even there out of hundreds nobody had that? im not saying its impossible to get this but to come here and claim all kinds of things about the drug and what side effects it has because obviously its the drug and not your utterly out of the ordinary sensitive body. also consider that you are both using a different vehicle, in fact alcohol at high amounts will almost ensure that most of it will go systemic. they did not use the minoxidil vehicle thats for sure. also consider that your CB is just laced. nobody ever had results with CB so I highly doubt that if it barely works when applied locally, that it will except strong anti androgenic effects at a completely different part of the body. HPA axis could happen but its probably very unlikely at 1/3rd of the usual treatment dose

I think this should be renamed in side effect talk at this point

CB worked for me, my scalp itch was gone, and hair was getting better. untill i noticed that i forgot that i had a dick.
i don't believe what company studies say anymore. i only believe my body.

finasteride almost killed me. pyri and CB shut down my libido completely when i was on them. that's just a fact.
sh*t i even have p**rn browsing history to prove it. i was a p**rn addict, then suddetly i was only interested in playing chess on the internet and forgot completely that a female's body is supposed to arouse me. limp dick all the time, i remember that for a month i haven't had a single boner.

then when i was off the drug i came back to my spicy internet browsing habits. so yeah f*** your studies.

 

[badnewsbearer]

CB worked for me, my scalp itch was gone, and hair was getting better. untill i noticed that i forgot that i had a dick.
i don't believe what company studies say anymore. i only believe my body.

finasteride almost killed me. pyri and CB shut down my libido completely when i was on them. that's just a fact.
sh*t i even have p**rn browsing history to prove it. i was a p**rn addict, then suddetly i was only interested in playing chess on the internet and forgot completely that a female's body is supposed to arouse me. limp dick all the time, i remember that for a month i haven't had a single boner.

then when i was off the drug i came back to my spicy internet browsing habits. so yeah f*** your studies.

yes, f*** studies lol. the research section literally

 

[badnewsbearer]

@badnewsbearer with all the information you have, by now I think you should know that pharmaceutical studies do not match reality.

@Min0 sadly, i think finasteride is safer than all these antiandrogens. For me, the only hope is Mane Biotech, SCUBE3, or that Bayer project whose long-term side effects we don't know.

I think with the information I have right now is that you are a complete lunatic. the fact that you unironically post on the research study where CB has been tested on kids and teenagers for 12 months and they found not a single sexual side effect, not one among 1500(!!) people shows that something massively does not match up. but if the basis of this forum is "f*** studies" then what is there left to debate? btw all the other drugs you listed as your hope will probably not work long term as they dont address androgens and the underlying signaling pathways at all. if one cannot tolerate any anti androgen it is basically time to shave the head and accept being extremely unattractive and thats the end of the story.

 

[Min0]

yes, f*** studies lol. the research section literally

According to studies made by the companies that are selling the drug. Finasteride and pyri and cb are completely safe. But the fact is there is no way in hell they are not lying because many people had side effects.

So yeah maybe I’m just too sensitive to anti androgens in all forms. If fluridil gives me side effects then it’s pretty much over for me yes.

 

[badnewsbearer]

According to studies made by the companies that are selling the drug. Finasteride and pyri and cb are completely safe. But the fact is there is no way in hell they are not lying because many people had side effects.

So yeah maybe I’m just too sensitive to anti androgens in all forms. If fluridil gives me side effects then it’s pretty much over for me yes.

this is a long post but I understand the issue and having something of a similar problem(cant tolerate finasteride not even low dose topical but haven't tried research chemicals) I think maybe we need to focus on the delivery more than on the drug at this point. I think the most limiting factor is the people gets sides and seeing how most new drugs (which can be extremely effective) focus on the androgen pathway, degraders, iRNAs, antagonists etc. we must find a way to tolerate them without sides. since hair loss is confined purely to androgenic action in the dermal papilla cells, a tiny compartment at the bottom of the follicle, targeting the drug right there could lead to high efficacy with low toxicity.

consider that maybe you use a vehicle that is complete sh*t for follicular delivery and local action like ethanol/pg is. it is not penetration pathway discriminatory, uses all 3 of them( penetration pathways: https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1359029412000234-fx1.jpg ) , penetrates everywhere on the skin and deep too. I can tell you that for CB-03-01 they did not use that vehicle, companies generally do skin permeation studies to pick the best vehicle which rarely is ethanol pg. you can read in the CB paper what vehicle they ended up using and they considered local action as a factor. they used Franz diffusion cells to gauge how much penetrates the skin and goes systemic.

a vehicle can significantly impact skin permeation and retention.
I dont think you should give up and we should strive for a solution. however I think this can only work by using a good vehicle. it can increase the drug content in the follicular cast and make it harder for the drug to get absorbed through the rest of the skin. if you use ethanol a good portion of the drug goes systemic directly thought the skin and since fluridal has a higher affinity for the androgen receptor than flutamide(yes it does. and the idea that it cant go systemic because it degrades in blood is BS because it does not degrade immediately but only after 6-7 hours which is enough time to bind an androgen receptor)
so I dont know how this is going to work. btw I am in the same position, I am looking into the vehicle route and have read enough papers to believe that the delivery mechanism can be vastly improved.

and furthermore, seeing as the importance of androgens on erectile dysfunction and libido is described in the literature, it works in ranges. and hormones fluctuated quite a lot on a daily basis. you cannot prevent a drug from going systemic completely. e.g the dermal papilla is highly vascularized and some drug will enter the circulation. however it would be quite insane if an arbitrary small amount can cause these full sides. like, that would make the body completely incapable of coping with external influences. e.g bad nutrition affects your androgen household more than a tiny dose of CB or pyrilutamide. its just a matter of restricting e.g the anti androgen at the penis as much as possible.

of course e.g in the case of finasteride, a 70% reduction in DHt has a vast impact on the system. however, I would be quite surprised if the body couldn't handle e.g a 10-20% decrease. and that should be the goal. its not a question of "does it go systemic or not", these drugs are not cyanide. and since most of them are lipophilic and quite small in molecular size, they WILL go systemic to some extent. the question is "how much goes systemic and what is the half life/modulatory half life of the drug in the system" and you want to limit that. for example finasteride half life is 7 hours but 5AR only gets resynthesized by half every 3 days. so if you dose again just because there is no finasteride left, you'll suppress DHT further. the idea is to only dose when the serum dht has stabilized again, however if we can achieve accumulation of the drug in the follicle then this is enough for efficacy.

so again, seeing as the most new drugs target the androgen part of hair loss, if we cant get the delivery right, we will miss out on ALL of those new treatments if we cant tolerate them. these treatments combined are the cure for hair loss for those who can tolerate it. and iRNA, AR degrader, 5AR inhibitor AND an AR antagonist? there will be nothing left in terms of androgenic action. the real issue is for us that we cant tolerate most of the drugs even in isolation.

the problem of AA is only a local one. going from oral to topical finasteride is a step and relieved side effects for many, however, when the topical still inhibits 35% of DHT then nothing is won for those who are very sensitive. e.g topical 0.025% topical finasteride in minoxidil dissolved inhibited 41% of my serum DHT after 3 weeks. too much for me.

we need 10-20% max for finasteride and the same reduction for the other drugs. furthermore it could allow slow release on site which would make dosing 2-3 times per week possible, even with an anti androgen like CB with a fast disassociation rate.


here for example I provide a paper on insight into topical delivery of finasteride using modern technology to limit systemic absorption and increase the drug amount where it belongs to. just a small overview

https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4923/14/2/286 for finasteride. this is new research, there are like 8 papers just from last years. for us, who are super sensitive to this stuff, using a vehicle with high follicular targeting would allow trimming down the dose and frequency which should lead to serum levels being almost undetectable.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1208/s12249-018-1087-z as an example for anti androgens, flutamide having a similar structure to fluridil. as you can see in the stained image, most of the drug either did not penetrate the stratum corneum(external layer of the skin) or resides in the follicular cast. this could limit systemic absorption compared to ethanol(which is a strong penetration enhancer everywhere) manyfold. one could get away with less frequent dosing and smaller doses. nobody is sensitive to any amount of anti androgen, I firmly believe you are just getting too much into your system with this vehicle. if you look at figure 7 in the above paper, we want something that looks like this. most of the drug in the follicle shaft and not much drug in other compartments of the skin. some will go systemic bc the follicular casts are vascularized but only 10% of the scalp are covered in follicle so the overall area of absorption is smaller.

Drug Targeting to the Hair Follicles: A Cyclodextrin-Based Drug Delivery - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

the research is getting started, most of the interesting papers are from 2018-2022.

i have talked to someone in the industry and some of these are not hard to make given the right equipment. my suggestion would be to find a lab that instead of brewing up CB or pyrilutamie with who knows what's insides, find a reputable lab that can make these carriers. since its just a reformulation of an existing drug(e.g in case of fluridil or finasteride) there is no regulatory hurdle and its not an unapproved possibly unsafe steroid.

some startups are already doing trials on this (2 I can think off, one in Korea and one in Israel) however that won't be here before 2025.


btw in theory, anti androgens(receptor antagonists) should be less harmful for example for erectile dysfunction as finasteride. androgens can work through the nuclear receptor or through other means e.g there is not just one receptor, there is multiple androgen receptor "splice variants" and some of them sit in the membrane. for erections the primary effect of androgens is mediated through the membrane receptors, however an antagonist like pyrilutamide cannot block these because its a molecular different structure. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Membrane_androgen_receptor

so it is entirely possible that one anti androgen has side effects while another has not, not just based on the affinity and amount you use but also the molecule itself, what the underlying androgenic actions are etc.

im just thinking, if CB and pyrilutamide are potent enough to limit your libido even though you apply it locally and libido is mostly in the brain, then it could be powerful and potent if it is targeted right into the hair follicle shaft and thus systemic impact is minimized. I think the research section should focus more on the improved delivery of existing drugs(that DO work well) instead of doing research on bs like twist inhibitors etc. things which never will work and carry potentially high risks. basically more of the drug where it belongs to and less where it doesnt. its not that easy but I think it could work

 

[Min0]

At this time my worry is to get back my max libido back because I’m not there yet.
I just noticed that my beard isn’t growing as fast as it used to after a shave, usually if I don’t shave for a week I get I thick beard . Now it’s not as thick.
So I’m wondering if the hormonal profile can permanently enter a new degraded steady state (less t more estrogen for example for a long time without drug intervention )

or by definition given enough time the levels will get back to the natural state ?

I’m thinking about going to the doctor to get a hormonal test prescription , I’m thinking my FSH, LH , Estrogen, T levels are completely fucked

 

[badnewsbearer]

with a receptor antagonist id find it impossible that the levels don't go back to normal. there is lots of data on cancer studies and androgen deprivation therapy where people take large quantities of extremely potent anti androgens over many years and their T comes back. with a tiny dose topically applied I find that incredibly impossible. the only way this could even work is through the HPA axis and you can easily check that by checking LH and FSH as you said. however I can tell you as someone who also had long term sides from finasteride usage, the gonad hormones where never the problem and I got them tested excessively. my hormones always came back to the exact same