BRyaN: more q's about ARs

[chewbaca]

Hi there Bryan.....could u make out what's in this article?

S4 ANDROGEN RESPONSIVE GENES AS THEY AFFECT HAIR GROWTH

Marty E. Sawaya, MD, PhD, ARATEC (Alopecia Research & Associated Technologies) Clinics & University of Miami School Medicine, Florida, USA.

Androgens have profound affects on scalp hair follicles causing growth inhibitory activity hence, miniaturization of hair follicles in the case of men with Androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia). In human scalp hair follicles, androgens are thought to be growth inhibitory, whereas on beard and body hair, androgens upregulate hair growth. The biochemical activity and immunohistochemical expression of 5a-reductase isoenzymes type I and II has been assessed in scalp of men with Androgenetic Alopecia, as well as the cytochrome P-450 aromatase enzyme, androgen receptor (AR), estrogen receptor (ER) alpha and beta. Studies in 10 men with Androgenetic Alopecia where scalp biopsies are obtained before and after 6 months treatment with finasteride (a specific type II 5a-reductase inhibitor) reveal interesting results with regard to the effects of suppressing DHT and how it affects these androgen associated factors. Differences in expression were found for some of the enzymes as well as transcription proteins, AR, ER-alpha and beta. All scalp biopsies from patients obtained 6 months after finasteride treatment revealed intense upregulation of AR expression in comparison to pre-treatment biopsies of the same patient, whereas ERs were not affected, indicating that AR is very sensitive to the affects of 5a-R type II suppression of DHT. Results suggest that as the hair growth returns in these previously miniaturized follicles, DHT suppression also alters the expression of specific Caspase genes inhibiting programmed cell death, apoptosis. Therefore, we can learn alot about the multiple effects of DHT by looking at its suppression in human scalp hair follicle to gain a better understanding of the many androgen responsive genes involved in hair growth regulation.

 

[Bryan]

So Bryan, it means that the genetic theory doesnt work anymore if u try to inhibit male pattern baldness?

I don't understand what you mean.

so this means the watever gene theraphy out there isnt going to work cause in the end AR upregulation occurs?

No, that's not what it means. Antiandrogenic treatments work DESPITE the upregulation of androgen receptors.

if that's the case why does hair transplant still work?....The cells could again modify themselves and reject the new hair right?

hair transplant works because the transplanted cells aren't sensitive to androgens.

Bryan

 

[jimmystanley]

so this is what i'm getting: if you have cells that are prone to AR upregulation then using an alpha 5 inhibitor like propecia is not really going to help much. however, since DHT has shown to be the worst androgen for male pattern baldness it may be good to lower it at a relative level. Now we know that for most guys alpha blockers should not be used on their own since the body seems to up androgens and also up androgen receptors, so you should definitely start using a topical anti androgen like fluridil or RU 58841. This makes sense to me now.

my new treatment against stupid male pattern baldness is as follows:

.25mgs of finasteride (lower DHT)
1ml of fluridil (inhibit androgen receptors)
laser comb 2x per week (scalp health and hair cosmetics)
thickening shampoo with cu peptides and emu oil/tea tree oil


this should murder male pattern baldness for jimmy....YOU'RE GOING DOWN male pattern baldness[/i]

 

[socks]

my new treatment against stupid male pattern baldness is as follows:

.25mgs of finasteride (lower DHT)
1ml of fluridil (inhibit androgen receptors)
laser comb 2x per week (scalp health and hair cosmetics)
thickening shampoo with cu peptides and emu oil/tea tree oil

**YAWN**

2.5mg of finasteride every 3rd day, Nizoral every 3rd day, occasional Folligen... After 16 months my hairdresser of 10yrs (who doesnt know I'm on treatments) told me my hair has gotten much thicker and had to use thinning scissors on my hair for the first time in 3yrs....

That is how you do it boys :wink:


Proven treatments and lots of patients = success

 

[chewbaca]

BTW BRYAn is the upregulation only during finasteride usage?

once u stop taking finasteride, will it return back to normal regulation?

 

[Bryan]

so this is what i'm getting: if you have cells that are prone to AR upregulation then using an alpha 5 inhibitor like propecia is not really going to help much.

Where on earth did you get THAT idea?? Propecia has been proven to be effective in numerous studies.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

BTW BRYAn is the upregulation only during finasteride usage?

once u stop taking finasteride, will it return back to normal regulation?

Yes. Beyond any reasonable doubt, it will return to normal.

 

[jimmystanley]

so this is what i'm getting: if you have cells that are prone to AR upregulation then using an alpha 5 inhibitor like propecia is not really going to help much.

Where on earth did you get THAT idea?? Propecia has been proven to be effective in numerous studies.

Bryan

i'm sure it is effective for a lot of people...i have seen all of the studies... but if you are one who is getting AR upregulation and are have receptors that attatch to testosterone and the other type of DHT that is not inhibited by finasteride then i just get the feeling that you will have about the same amount of androgens to androgen recepotr ratio as you would pre finasteride.

 

[chewbaca]

so this is what i'm getting: if you have cells that are prone to AR upregulation then using an alpha 5 inhibitor like propecia is not really going to help much.

Where on earth did you get THAT idea?? Propecia has been proven to be effective in numerous studies.

Bryan

i'm sure it is effective for a lot of people...i have seen all of the studies... but if you are one who is getting AR upregulation and are have receptors that attatch to testosterone and the other type of DHT that is not inhibited by finasteride then i just get the feeling that you will have about the same amount of androgens to androgen recepotr ratio as you would pre finasteride.

ok listen up pal, I am extemely underweight and small size in fram for my age 24.......i have male pattern baldness....So what type of adrogen is binding to my receptors...issit testes?....cant be isnt it, cause testes will make a man more manly with muscles, ect...and i have lots of facial hair...SO i guess its DHT rite?

 

[jimmystanley]

well, you obviously have testosterone if you have male pattern baldness caused by DHT.... i don't really know. i'm just saying that i have heard of other androgens binding to the AR receptors

 

[Bryan]

i'm sure it is effective for a lot of people...i have seen all of the studies... but if you are one who is getting AR upregulation and are have receptors that attatch to testosterone and the other type of DHT that is not inhibited by finasteride then i just get the feeling that you will have about the same amount of androgens to androgen recepotr ratio as you would pre finasteride.

Success or failure with finasteride isn't determined by whether or not you get AR upregulation, because it's a virtual certainty that EVERYBODY gets AR upregulation with finasteride. I think everyone should stop obsessing over what is just a natural cellular reaction.

Bryan

 

[chewbaca]

ok bryan, i got a question for u,......I am underweight and extremely thin, small bones and 1.7 m tall..... but why do i have male pattern baldness?......issit it because too much DHT is being converted from testes that I am lacking testes to produce growth effects?

I havent seen any person who looks like a anorexic and still balding....it beats me why

 

[Bryan]

I think the evidence shows that people with male pattern baldness have higher levels of androgenic activity ON AVERAGE (there are the inevitable exceptions, of course), but in my opinion, the problem has more to do with a SENSITIVITY to androgens. That is, the scalp follicles have more of a growth-inhibiting response to androgens in balding people than they do in non-balding people.

Bryan

 

[chewbaca]

I think the evidence shows that people with male pattern baldness have higher levels of androgenic activity ON AVERAGE (there are the inevitable exceptions, of course), but in my opinion, the problem has more to do with a SENSITIVITY to androgens. That is, the scalp follicles have more of a growth-inhibiting response to androgens than they do in non-balding people.

Bryan

and also some non balding people have a difieciency in alpha reductase right?

 

[Bryan]

Yes. The "pseudohermaphrodites" in the Dominican Republic are deficient in the 5a-reductase type 2 enzyme, and don't go bald.

 

[chewbaca]

Yes. The "pseudohermaphrodites" in the Dominican Republic are deficient in the 5a-reductase type 2 enzyme, and don't go bald.

ok bryan u said SENSITIVITY TO ANDROGENS.....But does this mean one can produce very musch less dht but still get hairloss rite?

so if this is Telogen Effluvium case i think i may be suffering from normal DHT level but high sensticvity....So i fi tokk proepcia , i am in fact bringing down my DHT levels to below normal rite?......FOr my kind of case, it is possible that i wont go total bald?

 

[Old Baldy]

Androgen receptors are eventually degraded and replaced with newly synthesized ones.

When an antiandrogen binds to an androgen receptor, the complex is no longer able to bind with DNA in the cell's nucleus to stimulate androgen-sensitive genes. If it WERE still able to do that, why would antiandrogens even be called "antiandrogens" at all?? :wink:

Ok, ok: I'm glossing over a couple of important details here, but the gist of what I just said is correct.

Bryan

Jimmy read, (then re-read) this statement closely and you'll see that UR doesn't really matter. (Well as far as I was thinking about UR.) finasteride. stops the AR's from influencing the production of androgen sensitive genes. I thought the androgen sensitive genes existed in the first place. I was wrong.

It does make sense that if you're going to call something an anti-androgen, then it should be able to stop the effect of androgens.

 

[jimmystanley]

guys can have super high DHT levels but never go bald since they do not have follicle cells that have those wacky androgen receptors. sorry Chewey

 

[stax]

So then if Fluridil worked really well and you were a good responder then there would be no need to take finasteride right?

 

[jimmystanley]

Androgen receptors are eventually degraded and replaced with newly synthesized ones.

When an antiandrogen binds to an androgen receptor, the complex is no longer able to bind with DNA in the cell's nucleus to stimulate androgen-sensitive genes. If it WERE still able to do that, why would antiandrogens even be called "antiandrogens" at all?? :wink:

Ok, ok: I'm glossing over a couple of important details here, but the gist of what I just said is correct.

Bryan

Jimmy read, (then re-read) this statement closely and you'll see that UR doesn't really matter. (Well as far as I was thinking about UR.) finasteride. stops the AR's from influencing the production of androgen sensitive genes. I thought the androgen sensitive genes existed in the first place. I was wrong.

It does make sense that if you're going to call something an anti-androgen, then it should be able to stop the effect of androgens.

i'm not sure what u are trying to tell me. i understand this...but it looks like you are saying that finasteride stop UR because it's an anti androgen...which is wrong.