Bryan, Old Baldy: I think I found cheap GLA

CCS

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http://www.herbalaccents.com/carrieroils.htm

http://www.soaperschoice.com/cgi-soaper ... 7140_31341

Borage seed oil is about 22% GLA, though it needs to be separated from the glycerol. It also is about 40% linoleic acid. Flax seed oil is 60% apha-linolenic acid, 20% oleic, and 20% linoleic.

Everywhere I look, borage seed oil is sold for about $25 per ounce, though some capsule prices are half that. However, these bulk oils for soap making are sold for about $4 per ounce, and only $120 per gallon. I want to buy 1 L, but will take the gallon.

I'm going to call them and ask how to buy them and why they are so cheap. Do you guys think this is a scam or have any ideas why they are so cheap?


I'm going to separate 2/3 of the GLA and leave the rest as oil, incase the oil has benifits to the skin, as far as anti-aging. I'll also make borage seed soap for my whole body, and apply the fatty acids and oils to my face as well as my scalp. I read a lot of good stuff about GLA. I'll still use some flax seed oil.

Can you buy hydrochloric acid and sodium hydroxide pure? Do you think the glycerol will quickly react with the free fatty acid to form an oil again after I protonate the soap?
 

Apoc

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College: I think it's time you opened your own shop. Start mixing Zix, oils, etc. you'd make a lot of money.
 

CCS

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Yes, I could, but I don't know how payment would be arranged. If GLA is as good as I think it is, I could sell a strong treatment for 1/3 the price of revivogen and make a lot of money. But we don't yet know how effective GLA is, only that it reduceds hampster flank organ size where applied locally. Someone told me androgens might be partially responsible for the big pores on my nose. For now I'm applying Eucapil there.



For a long time I've advised people to dilute stuff with 70% isopropyl alcohol. While this is cheap, I now prefer the less toxic ethyl alcohol that can be bought at perfumer sites, just as long as it does not have methanol in it.
 

CCS

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J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2002 Nov;82(4-5):393-400. Related Articles, Links


5 alpha-reductase-catalyzed conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone is increased in prostatic adenocarcinoma cells: suppression by 15-lipoxygenase metabolites of gamma-linolenic and eicosapentaenoic acids.

Pham H, Ziboh VA.

Department of Dermatology, School of Medicine, University of California at Davis, TB-192, One Shields Avenue, 95616, USA.

Although the androgens, testosterone (T) and its highly active metabolite dihydrotestosterone (DHT) play a role in the development and progression of prostate cancer, the mechanism(s) are unclear. Furthermore, 5 alpha-reductase which catalyze the conversion of T to DHT, has been a target of manipulation in the treatment of prostatic cancer, hence synthetic 5 alpha-reductase activity inhibitors have shown therapeutic promise. To demonstrate that nutrients derived from dietary sources can exert similar therapeutic promise, this study was designed using benign hyperplastic cells (BHC) and malignant tumorigenic cells (MTC) derived from Lobund-Wistar (L-W) rat model of prostatic adenocarcinoma to test the effects of gamma-linolenic acid (GLA), eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and their 15-lipoxygenase metabolites on cellular 5 alpha-reductase activity. Our data revealed: (i) that incubation of MTC with [3H]-T resulted in marked conversion to [3H]-DHT when compared to similar incubation with BHC; (ii) that DHT-enhanced activity of 5 alpha-reductase was inhibited 80% by 15S-hydroxyeicosatrienoic acid, the 15-lipoxygenase metabolite of GLA, when compared to 55% by 15S-hydroxyeicosapentaenoic acid, the 15-lipoxygenase metabolite of EPA; and (iii) that their precursor fatty acids, respectively, exerted moderate inhibition. Taken together, the study underscores the biological importance of 15-lipoxygenase metabolites of polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) in androgen metabolism.

PMID: 12589947 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]





will the GLA get metabolised enough in the skin to form the 15-lipoxygenase metabolite?
 

sublime

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CCS - Do you know if the GLA can be transported into the scalp with a carrier? I take them internally as GLA is great for the body in some many different areas.
 

CCS

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applied to hampster flank skin in vivo in a 20% concentration with ethanol, GLA shrank it, implying that it blocks 5ar. In vitro, they found that a very low concentration is needed to block 5ar, about 1/1000 the concentration of azelaic acid needed to block 5ar.

The problem is you need free GLA, not GLA bonded to glycerol (oil). borage seed capsules may have other benefits, but applying the fatty acids to your skin should help hair loss much more.

At $130 per gallon I can make what I want and take some orally and make soap if I want, and it will last me a long time if I keep it dark and cool, and sealed away from air somehow. I'll mail a bunch of the final product to my bother.
 

Bryan

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bubka said:
i don' think that any type of lipids are absorbed through the skin

Sure they are. And lipids are more likely to be absorbed through the skin than water-soluble substances. Do a search on PubMed, and you can find studies showing that topically applied linoleic acid (just as one example) can actually supply a significant fraction of its required nutritional level.

Bryan
 

CCS

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Thanks for that info, Bryan. It gives me more confidence. Even if I inhibit all DHT production, I still need an anti-androgen to stop testosterone. spironolactone can easily do that. RU is only needed to compete with DHT, and is over kill for testosterone.

I read that potasium hydroxide is for liquid soap, and sodium hydroxide is for solid soap. So i'm sure I can buy both, even though they are extremely hazardous in the hands of anyone who does not know how to use them. I just need hydrochloric acid. I could easily get it from the chemical cabinet, but i would feel wrong taking that much. I'll just use it tonight on a small sample to see if I can make it work. i don't know if I will need EDTA since the water can extract the sodium. Unlike soap, I will add HCl to protonate the fatty acids, so the sodium will be free to wonder at pH 5. Then I shake it up, let settle, and remove the fatty acids. I'll use flax seed oil tonight, and guy a gallon of borage later.

When I dilute minoxidil to 3.5%, i'll add some fatty acids to slow the evaporation and make it less harsh, and of course inhibit DHT.
 

Goingat20

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sounds very interesting ccs, i think your going to have to send me a batch also :whistle:
 

CCS

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Sure. I'll send you the pure stuff for you to dilute or use straight how you want. Since you are in australia, it would be very inconvenient for you to pay for shipping, though I will ask UPS if there is a way you can pay on shipping on your end to avoid currency issues. I'll send some to people in the US who have been contributing a lot too, but they will have to pay me for the cost of the oil and yours. I think 6 oz per person should be good. I'll use a small bottle water bottle.
 

Goingat20

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Thanks mate - your a legend. Im willing to cover any costs involved
 

Bertie

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Delurking because I found this topic interesting --

Would someone mind posting instructions (for a non chemist) as to how one might produce a GLA topical (either a Revivogen like stand alone solution or something that can be mixed with Rogaine), starting from Borage Seed Oil? Thank you in advance.
 

CCS

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you need sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide, hydrochloric acid (it is sold somewhere, maybe for pools) and a glass pot to cook it in. You will need preferably a glass stirring stick.

You can buy the sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide on sites that sell oils for soaps. That is where you get the borage seed oil and flax seed oil cheap. Don't bother with other oils. Safflower is OK to, I guess, since it is high in linoleic acid, but that is not as strong as ALA, if I remember correctly, and flax is high in ALA. Borage has the GLA, though only 20%.

The NaOH is clear white semi sticky granulas, if pure. Sodium hydroxide is 2.12 grams per cm3. So if you use 4.5 cm3 in a small measuring container you invent, you can get the right mass.

The hard part is you have to find the hydrochloric acid. Pool supplies might have it, but you will have to google it. I'm sure it is only sold diluted, which would be a pain. HCL fumes and the fumes will burn you if the concentration is over about 3 M. It is 10 M it its concentrated form.

To react most or all of the oil, you need 1 M NaOH (sodium hydroxide. I don't know if lye is NaOH or just contains it.). For 250mL, that is about 10 grams. Do not touch it with your hand. Do not touch anything that has touched it. Wash or discard anything that has touched it. Use weighing paper when weighing it. Since you have not had chemistry classes, you will really need to use common sense. Bring the water to a boil. Turn on your fume hood or do this outside, though NaOH won't have nearly as much fumes as HCl. This is just a safety precaution since it is boiling. Add in the 250mL of oil soon after. Do not let the hot NaOH get on you. Stir it if the layers don't mix. Eventually it should all mix up. Simmer it for 30 minutes to make sure the complex is mostly reacted. Let it cool.

Add HCl to turn the soapy water and glycerol you now have into fatty acids, salt water, and glycerol. The glycerol might be on the bottom or it might be disssolved in the fatty acids. Hopefully it won't recombine. Also, if you use too much NaOH, the layers stay mixed, until you add enough HCl to cancel it. If you add too much HCl, most of the acid will stay in the water, not the fatty acids, so you should be able to remove the fatty acids and discard the water and a little fatty acid and the fatty acids you want should be at a good pH. They buffer at pH 5, which means that a little HCl or NaOH will not change the pH much, giving you plenty of safety.

OK. This is where you have to have some math skills. I don't know what concentration of HCl you will have. You need 9 grams of pure HCl to do this, but it does not come pure. In its most concentrated form, 10 M, it is about 365 grams per liter, and says 36.5% on the bottle. I highly doubt you can buy stuff that dangerous. You might get 3.65% HCl at the most. If you get 3.65% HCl, you need need 250mL to have 9g. You need to cobine these in a container that holds 750 mL, and is glass. It may heat up when you mix them. Maybe have the big container with the soap sitting in ice so the fatty acids and glycerol don't get the activation energy to react again. Pour it in that tall container and wait to see the separation of the water and the fatty acid layer, and maybe the glycerol on the bottom. Then take the fatty acids off the top. They should be at a pH of 5, which is the same as shampoo.

So you can scale this reaction up or down as you wish, if you can do ratios. Measuring the HCl just requires a glass measuring cup.

If you did not think of wearing gogles, you probably don't have the common sense to mess with this stuff. So don't hold me responsible.
 

CCS

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applying the stuff topically will probably make dutasteride 2-3x per week as effective as dutasteride 2.5mg/day.


I'm wondering if it would have any effects if taken internally, even if systemic. I'm wondering if there is a dose that would work and be cheaper than avodart. I don't want to be the guinea pig, but maybe some people who are affraid of pharmaceuticals will try the stuff. They are probably affraid of the HCl and NaOH, even though those just make H2O and NaCl, salt water, when combined equally, and HCl is in your stomach. It probably would not do much.
 

Felk

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Im interested in this GLA stuff now, after hearing about the sebum reduction on that guys forehead :p

How much GLA is in revivogen?
 

CCS

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They don't say anywhere on the site or the web. It contains GLA, ALA, linoleic acid, and oleic acid. Since oleic acid from corn oil is much cheaper than GLA from and it's companion acids in borage seed oil, I don't know which they have more of. But Bryan says he got an email from an official who said that 40% of the mass of the liquid in the vials is fatty acid.

Oleic acid shrinks hampster flank half as much as GLA, so it is not horrible. Revivon also has poly phenols, but I don't know if they are the water soluble ones in apples, which are the strongest, though the ones in grapes also outperformed minoxidil.
 

Bryan

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Felk said:
Im interested in this GLA stuff now, after hearing about the sebum reduction on that guys forehead :p

Here, you can read all about it in the actual patent! :) Here's the link:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... /5,605,929

Be sure and notice not only the experiment they did with GLA (BTW, I got the dose wrong before...they used 20 mg of GLA, applied twice a day, not the 40 mg that I reported earlier), but also the one with EGCG (the green tea polyphenol). Scroll about 80% of the way down the page to "Example 9", and you'll see the following text:


Effects of Fatty Acids and Catechins on Sebum Production in a Human Model

Topical antiandrogenic activity of several fatty acid and catechin was first evaluated in the hamster flank organ assay or the rat assay. To further confirm the effectiveness of antiandrogenic compounds and suitability for human use, tests were performed on a human male subject. The ideal compounds for human treatment are those that are topically and locally active but do not show systemic antiandrogenic activity, especially in the cases involving young males. In the following example, two classes of compounds were tested by measuring sebum secretion from the forehead of an adult male treated topically.

A. METHODS

1. Determination of Forehead Sebum Production

A 63-year old Asian male volunteer was used to test and analyze sebum production from the forehead region. The forehead was washed thoroughly by soap twice and cleaned by 70% isopropyl alcohol twice. Sebum production was measured 30 to 60 minutes later by a sebum meter (Courage/Khazaka Electronic GmbH, Germany). The sebum meter tape probe (7 mm.times.8 mm) covered 56 mm.sup.2 area in each measurement. Ten measurements were made within the 4 cm square area (16 cm.sup.2) located at the middle of the left or right side forehead between the eyebrow and the hair line.

The sebum meter detected the difference in the transparency of the tape before and after the tape was placed on the forehead for 30 seconds and expressed the difference in an arbitrary number (S-value) between 0 to 300 (or higher). S-values of sebum accumulated on the foreheads of men are usually 200 to 300. Skin surface on hands usually showed a very low number (5 to 20). The S-value for forehead immediately after washing was less than 5. For men, the S-value gradually increased to about 50 within 30 minutes after washing and reached 100 to 200 in 45 minutes to 55 minutes.

To determine the rate of sebum production, the left and the right forehead areas were measured alternatively and each time at the comparable areas on the two sides. Ten measurements on each side (i.e., 20 measurements for two sides) could take about 15-20 minutes and the sebum-values ranged between 30 to 200. The S-values were different considerably at different areas of the forehead and could be influenced by environmental, including weather, diet, and physiological conditions. However, the ratio of the total S-value (the sum of 10 measurements) for the left and the total S-value for the right forehead was constant. For the Asian male tested in this experiment, the L/R ratios measured over a six month's period was within 1.15 to 1.38 if the S-values were determined 30 to 50 minutes after the forehead was washed thoroughly. Therefore, compounds applied to the left forehead that reduced the L/R ratio to lower than 1.1 were considered as topically active agents for suppression of sebum production.

B. RESULTS

1. .gamma.-LA Inhibition of Human Forehead Sebum

In the experiment shown in FIG. 24, 0.2 ml of borage oil (containing 18% of .gamma.LA) in a gel capsule was applied to the left forehead twice daily for 23 days. During this period, L/R ratio reduced from 1.28.+-.0.03 down to 1.05.+-.0.01. After the borage oil treatment was stopped, the L/R ratio returned to 1.20.+-.0.14. The effect of borage oil on the sebum production on the left forehead was relatively small, possibly due to the fact that most .gamma.LA in the borage oil was in the form of triglyceride that did not inhibit 5.alpha.-reductase (see Table 2). Free acid released from the glyceride by nonenzymic or enzymic action was probably responsible for the effect.

After the borage oil application was stopped and the L/R ratio recovered to 1.33, 20 mg of pure .gamma.-LA was applied to the left forehead twice each day for 6 days. The L/R ratio decreased to 0.22 during this period. After the .gamma.-LA application was stopped, the L/R ratio recovered slowly to 1.20.+-.0.14 over the period of 16 days. The finding clearly showed that .gamma.-LA was superior than borage oil in quickly suppressing sebum production from forehead of a human male subject.

2. Catechin Inhibition of Human Forehead Sebum Production

Twenty mg of (-)epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) in 0.2 ml 70% ethanol was applied to the left forehead twice a day for 6 days (FIG. 25). The L/R ratio decrease from 1.20.+-.0.02 to 0.71.+-.0.04 during this period. After the EGCG treatment was stopped, the L/R ratio gradually recovered to 1.19.+-.0.02 within 16 days. Subsequent treatment of the left forehead with 20 mg (-)epicatechin in 0.2 ml 70% ethanol twice a day for 6 days reduced the L/R ratio to 1.02.+-.0.1. After the application was stopped, the L/R ratio gradually increased to the normal value of 1.21.+-.0.01 in 10 days. Clearly EGCG was more effective in reducing the sebum production from forehead than (-)epicatechin.
 

Old Baldy

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College: Bryan and the other guys know about GLA. I know nothing.

About all I do know is, if you want the pure stuff, it costs a FORTUNE!!
 

CCS

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Old Baldy. You don't need the pure stuff. You don't even need GLA. ALA, some long omega-3's, linoleic acid, and even oleic acid are good too. And oleic acid is a good AR blocker. You just need to remove the glycerol from the fatty acids and don't have to separate them.

I tried to freeze the product to crystalize out the water, but the whole thing just frooze at -10 F. It melten in the bottle in my hand when I took it out. Still looks cloudy. I wonder if The HCL needs more time to react, or a higher amount. I can put the product back in a flask and add more acid and try again today. There has to be an easy way to do it. Maybe it needs to be hotter.
 
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