Can ANYONE give me hope?! (positive update 6.2.07) page .7

[blandflabbis]

What sort of hope is that? That his hair will NOT come back?

Barnabas what's your update. 2 months on and I'm still shedding. Well, when I say shedding, 5 mins ago I put my hand through the front of my hairline 4 times and came away with 8 hairs with no effort... yikes.

That was all I was trying to say, just that there isn't necessarily a correlation between how many hairs are falling out and whether you're going bald - many of those hairs which are falling out (as I don't believe propecia causes any extra hairs to fall out) would fall out anyway and as such could very well grow back because they're simply falling out as part of your hair cycle. When hairs fall out now I just ignore it because I know it has no direct effect on my long term scalp coverage, checking your hair line/bald patches is a much better way to assess whether your treatment is working or not.

 

[barnabas]

And why is that? If hair is falling out everywhere in a shed wouldn't it stand that your hairline would recede, since hairs are coming out of it? :#

 

[blandflabbis]

It takes a very long time (years) to go bald, the impact of small fluctuations in how many hairs are falling out over a period of weeks wouldn't drastically alter your hair line. In a completely normal hair cycle when hairs fall out it doesn't cause any noticeable difference to the appearance of the person's hair line/scalp coverage. That's because firstly, you need to lose about 15% of your hair before it becomes noticeable and secondly because the hairs which fall out are covered by new hairs which began growing a relatively long time in the past - the growing phase of hair can last up to 6 years. Therefore if you're experiencing a greater degree of shedding as part of your normal hair cycle it shouldn't affect the appearance of your hair line/scalp coverage much at all because the process takes several years.

For instance imagine if you kept water running into your sink at a constant rate, but to keep it from overflowing you continually removed some of the water using a cup. Say that in order for you to keep the water at a steady level you have to take out 3 cup-fulls of water every minute. Imagine that every hour you did this followed a set pattern - after half an hour or so you only removed 2 cups of water during one minute, then half an hour later you removed 4 cups of water during one minute. Throughout the whole experiment the difference in the level of the water would be barely perceptible but if you kept checking the amount of water that was coming out and noticed that 4 cups had come out instead of 3 in one particular minute you could probably convince yourself that the level of water was receding. In reality the only real cause for the water to recede would be if there were some problem with the water that was running into the sink.

This is how a hair cycle works, all things being equal (as in someone who isn't going bald - or in the example, if the water keeps running into the sink at a constant rate) the level of scalp coverage will appear virtually the same despite minor fluctuations in the amount of shedding.

 

[barnabas]

Well, what I read said that if you experience a telogen effluvium and are susceptible to male pattern baldness the areas that would be affected by male pattern baldness eventually are most heavily impacted during the Telogen Effluvium. I can't remember where I read that, though. I thought we were talking about sheds, not normal hair fall.

 

[JDW]

That was all I was trying to say, just that there isn't necessarily a correlation between how many hairs are falling out and whether you're going bald - many of those hairs which are falling out (as I don't believe propecia causes any extra hairs to fall out) would fall out anyway and as such could very well grow back because they're simply falling out as part of your hair cycle. When hairs fall out now I just ignore it because I know it has no direct effect on my long term scalp coverage, checking your hair line/bald patches is a much better way to assess whether your treatment is working or not.

but that's what we're saying. It's not just hairs falling out it is a DRAMATICS change in hair thickness all over and my hairline has receeded n inch and come in about the same on both sides. IT's a noticeable cosmetic difference that has happened in a month or two. f*** this, it's not coming back man and you just have to look at the polls on here to see that I' m fucked because of this 2 month shed which happened aftert 3 months on the bloody drug.

 

[blandflabbis]

Well, what I read said that if you experience a telogen effluvium and are susceptible to male pattern baldness the areas that would be affected by male pattern baldness eventually are most heavily impacted during the Telogen Effluvium. I can't remember where I read that, though. I thought we were talking about sheds, not normal hair fall.

I was saying that sheds in this context are often just fluctuations in the natural shedding of hair during your hair cycle. The argument is that Propecia can cause a Telogen effluvium, personally I don't subscribe to that in most cases (it's possible there could be an adverse reaction to the drug which would cause it, but the same can be said about many other medications).

but that's what we're saying. It's not just hairs falling out it is a DRAMATICS change in hair thickness all over and my hairline has receeded n inch and come in about the same on both sides. IT's a noticeable cosmetic difference that has happened in a month or two. f*** this, it's not coming back man and you just have to look at the polls on here to see that I' m fucked because of this 2 month shed which happened aftert 3 months on the bloody drug.

It's possible that you can take an adverse reaction to Propecia and it could cause Telogen Effluvium, I can only speak about what I've read generally - that there's little evidence that Propecia causes increased shedding. If you are experiencing vast amounts of hair falling out and a noticeable cosmetic difference then you should see a professional because there will be some specific cause for it as hereditary baldness doesn't work that way (though it often appears to from a psychological perspective).

 

[barnabas]

That was all I was trying to say, just that there isn't necessarily a correlation between how many hairs are falling out and whether you're going bald - many of those hairs which are falling out (as I don't believe propecia causes any extra hairs to fall out) would fall out anyway and as such could very well grow back because they're simply falling out as part of your hair cycle. When hairs fall out now I just ignore it because I know it has no direct effect on my long term scalp coverage, checking your hair line/bald patches is a much better way to assess whether your treatment is working or not.

but that's what we're saying. It's not just hairs falling out it is a DRAMATICS change in hair thickness all over and my hairline has receeded n inch and come in about the same on both sides. IT's a noticeable cosmetic difference that has happened in a month or two. f*** this, it's not coming back man and you just have to look at the polls on here to see that I' m fucked because of this 2 month shed which happened aftert 3 months on the bloody drug.

The same thing happened to a bunch of other posters...most of them just disappeared never to be heard from again, but that finnish guy who responded to you a week or two ago is one of them who DID recover completely, and the guy who runs the site (Hairlosstalk) is another. I remember reading a post of his where he said "I wasn't just shedding on month 4, I was completely freaking out and ready to sue Merck!" I dunno if HE receded or whatever though, I guess he'd have to clarify.

 

[JDW]

How's yours going man?

I've been off the tablets for 3 days and have stopped shedding from the front completely.

 

[JDW]

Just wish I had stopped taking them earlier and then my hair wouldn't be in this god awful state now!

 

[blandflabbis]

I don't mean to hammer this point, but if Propecia was causing excessive shedding it wouldn't stop immediately when you went off the tablets. Telogen Effluvium happens several months after the initial cause, if you were suffering from it and it's suddenly stopped then it means that whatever was causing it stopped around 1-6 months ago (not 3 days ago).

All hair has a growth phase, termed anagen, and a resting phase, telogen. On the scalp, anagen lasts approximately 3 years, while telogen lasts roughly 3 months, although there can be wide variation in these times between individuals. During telogen, the resting hair remains in the follicle until it is pushed out by growth of a new anagen hair.

In most people, 5-15% of the hair on the scalp is in telogen at any given time. Telogen effluvium is triggered when a physiologic stress or hormonal change causes a large number of hairs to enter telogen at one time. Shedding does not occur until the new anagen hairs begin to grow. The emerging hairs help to force the resting hairs out of the follicle. Recent evidence suggests that the mechanism of shedding of a telogen hair is an active process that may occur independent of the emerging anagen hair. The interval between the inciting event in telogen effluvium and the onset of shedding corresponds to the length of the telogen phase, between 1 and 6 months (average 3 months)

I don't know why you're experiencing this sort of shedding, but if Propecia were causing it then you'd experience it for at least another month whether you continue to take it or not. Reading anything into what happened in the last 3 days since you've been off the tablets would be a mistake in my opinion.

 

[barnabas]

How's yours going man?

I've been off the tablets for 3 days and have stopped shedding from the front completely.

I dunno, I'm still on the propecia, shed seems to have pretty much stopped entirely, hair still looks like crap but there's no way it could improve for another couple months so I'm not going to worry too much till then.

 

[JDW]

Okay I'm back on them now except I'm splitting proscar into 1/5ths in the hope that it will cause a little less damage. (!)

Please regrow or I'm fooked.

 

[JDW]

just to update, today I was forced to shave my head due to the extent of the shed...

If someone else tells me to "ride it out" I'll go mental. Photos tomorrow and we'll assess just how vicious a propecia shed can be...

None of this "you don't shed on finasteride sh*t either."

 

[JDW]

Okay I'm back on them now except I'm splitting proscar into 1/5ths in the hope that it will cause a little less damage. (!)

Please regrow or I'm fooked.

WOOHOO
Back on the pills and shedding again...

load of sh*t what people have been saying about it having no immediate impact.

 

[barnabas]

After avoiding looking at my hair for a couple weeks, I've discovered my right temple seems to be regrowing in an area about the same (or maybe even lower) than it was when I started the stuff. Left is still worse than baseline, but right seems to be back to baseline or better. It's more diffuse than before but thanks to the sheer amount of regrowth I'm sure it will thicken up. I'm pleasantly surprised.

 

[blandflabbis]

Okay I'm back on them now except I'm splitting proscar into 1/5ths in the hope that it will cause a little less damage. (!)

Please regrow or I'm fooked.

WOOHOO
Back on the pills and shedding again...

load of $#iT what people have been saying about it having no immediate impact.

Medically speaking it can't have an immediate impact. If you've experienced that then the situation is one of the following -

1) It's a coincidence that you noticed less hair falling out when you went off the tablets and an increase when you went back on it.

2) Everything we know about how hair grows is wrong or doesn't apply to you.

3) You're reading trends into things that aren't happening.

These are the only three things that can be happening because there is no doubt that medical opinion on how hair grows - a growing phase for several years, a resting phase of several months and then shedding before regrowth - isn't consistent with your experience. If what you're saying happened then hairs would have to immediately fall out without a resting phase.

Even when shedding is caused by a stressful event or a particular medication it takes months to fall out because the hair has to go through a resting phase. What happens when such an event/response to medication occurs isn't that the hair all immediately falls out, it's that it all moves into a resting phase - where it sits for months and then sheds.

 

[JDW]

Oh the comedy of it all!!!

so what I've managed to establish so far is that:

I've lost around 40% of my hair and lost 3cm now at front and sides, have no hairline etc etc. According to Dr.Lee this is PROBABLY a result of a Telogen effluvia reaction to the proscar so according to Dr, Lee my options are:

1) continue on the Proscar (not recommended by him as he says that whilst hte contributing agent is still there the Telogen Effluvium will continue)

2) discontinue the Proscar to stop the Telogen Effluvium. However, only non male pattern baldness hairs are guaranteed to return.

Either way I'm absolutely f*****g screwed and look like a f*****g idiot now after looking ok 4 months ago.

Let this be a warning to anyone considering starting finasteride.

 

[Guest]

yeah like dr lee can really diagnose that without seeing you in person.

 

[JDW]

Well what are the other alternatives of what has happened?
Notice the word "PROBABLY" in capital letters...He didn't diagnose anything but suggested what could likely be the cause of it.
Such a violent reaction to the drug is just not common and would seem to indicate a Telogen Effluvium reaction. This is certainly no normal shed as it's gone on for 3 months already and no shed that I have seen talked about on here has had such severe recession/thinning and any that have come near the magnitude of mine have not ended in a recovery, not even to baseline.

I'm having to accept that finasteride has ruined my hair and it ain't coming back.

 

[Guest]

well if it's not common and it's not the drug's fault, then why warn people against starting finasteride?

you've only been on the drug for 6-7 months. that is not enough time to assess its effectiveness.