can't believe this...after 7 yrs on Propecia...32 yrs old

Prop

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Wuffer said:
Thanks for the info Propecia, I haven't seen either of those but also haven't actively looked into this particular side effect.. I will check those out when I have some more time!

glad to be helpful, but i didn't find the best one that i read,
these r minor studies

unfortunately the problems r different and maybe also the solutions

for sure if u hadn't experienced any side u will be skeptical about our stories, expecially till the medical community is unaware of all potential fina damages
 

Prop

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Enden said:
When ED happens, out of the blue, for a healthy, sexually active 32 yr old male, this is a signal that something is not right. Which is why I am going to see endocrin/urologist docs to help me figure out what is going on.
Everything will most likely appear within "normal ranges"... It's a waste of time and money. You won't get any help. I say, go with your instinct.

better see Doctor first, it's not 100% sure that he is in our boat
 

Ende

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What's the content of Revivogen? I see claims that it's a reductase inhibitor which is more effective than both Propecia and Avodart when it comes to reducing DHT in the scalp. That surprises me, since it's a OTC product. All topical drugs can be absorbed systemically.
 

Ende

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They claim it's natural, so it's most likely saw palmetto. Some people have been seriously screwed by that supplement as well.
 

Wuffer

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The ingredients are here:

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/hair-loss-t ... dients.php

It does contain saw palmetto, as well as bunch of other ingredients that probably only have limited effects. The stuff is insanely expensive also, imo it's a waste of money.

Even though the saw could potentially be absorbed systemically, it's really a question of would it be enough to inhibit DHT to a significant degree to cause side effects. I don't know enough about how the stuff works to conclude that (isn't it regularly taken orally?) but I doubt it from a shampoo.
 

StoptheMadness

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Wuffer said:
Thanks for the info Propecia, I haven't seen either of those but also haven't actively looked into this particular side effect.. I will check those out when I have some more time!

Good luck with your ed problems man, be sure to let us know what happens in the end. Have you decided to come off finasteride for good now? Did you talk to your prescribing doctor about stopping treatment? If you want to get the full picture of what is going on, it would be best to still be on the medication. Since coming off it causes your hormones to change significantly, blood tests may yield inconclusive results. Keep in mind that it takes at least 2 weeks for your hormone levels to return to normal after quitting. In your case after having been on for 7 years, it may take longer.

In addition to coming off all my other hairloss meds (except for Rogaine which I will apply topically all over) I think I have to come off propecia given my ED symptoms.

My prescribing derma Doctor wasn't convinced at all that Propecia is the culprit. He claims to never has anyone come back to him with this side effect. He said that I could come off but that going back on wasn't out of the question. He ultimately doesn't know anymore than you or I.

I don't know if the devil on my shoulder would convince me to start propecia again if I feel my erections ever go back to normal.

I took my blood test yesterday, the same morning that I didn't take my 1 ml of propecia for the first time in seven years. So the blood test will reveal my levels with having 7 yrs of Propecia in my system.
 

StoptheMadness

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Enden said:
They claim it's natural, so it's most likely saw palmetto. Some people have been seriously screwed by that supplement as well.

I wonder if it's possible that saw palmetto in combination with my other meds could have caused the ED symptoms given that I was completely healthy before.
It's impossible to definitively say but as I said before it's just too weird that all other things being equal and no change to my regimen in 5 years, that the one day I applied revivogen for the first time I get ED the next day, saturday april 2 (and persisting problems as of today).

believe me the last thing on my mind was ED. I was actually looking forward to replacing xandrox with revivo (after 5 yrs with Xandrox).
 

Wuffer

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Enden is actually right; a blood test won't tell you much unless something is very obviously off. The 'normal' ranges are pretty wide for hormones, and even if someting seems high/low, its difficult to say that it would be the culprit. It could just be your hormonal makeup. If you experience side effects while on finasteride, a blood test won't ever be enough to conclusively tell you that finasteride is causing it.

It's still good to see the doctors though, just to rule out anything obvious.

It would be a good idea to come off finasteride for a month or so to see if the sides go away. You always have the option of trying it again in the future.

I'm not trying to scare you, but just keep in mind when you come off finasteride you will likely have some significant hair loss over the next year. Depending on the extent of your loss, you will likely experience 7 years of hair loss in a year or so. There probably isn't much you can do to stop this.. The best way to go would be to try one of the new topical antiandrogens like CB-03-01. However, the effectiveness of these is still in question.
 

StoptheMadness

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finfighter said:
Wuffer said:
I'm not trying to scare you, but just keep in mind when you come off finasteride you will likely have some significant hair loss over the next year. Depending on the extent of your loss, you will likely experience 7 years of hair loss in a year or so. There probably isn't much you can do to stop this.. The best way to go would be to try one of the new topical antiandrogens like CB-03-01. However, the effectiveness of these is still in question.



Tell Cosmo that, CB-03-01 has been proven to be twice as effective as Finasteride, according to Cosmo's clinical results.

And RU58841`has been used by board members for years, enden has stopped his hair loss with is, it has been shown to block the same amount of DHT as Finasteride (70%) but it is better because it also blocks T.

These drugs are a much smarter and safer approach then Finasteride. Finasteride is an incredibly stupid approach to solving Androgenetic Alopecia. It is completely unecessary to internally alter your hormopne levels when you can simply block the receptors instead., and avoid all of the pointless side effects.

It is simply asinine to believe that blocking vital enzymes like 5AR2, and suppressing the most potent male androgen by 70% will not cause undesirable effects. Do you need DHT past puberty? HELL YEAH! Some anabolic steroids are sythetic DHT, look at the results men get from those, why in the hell would you want to do the opposite and take DHT out of your body?

It's really pretty simple, research scientists have made new molecules (CB-03-01) which have a higher affinity for androgn receptors than DHT or T, so you can use these molecules to stop your hair loss, instead of internally suppressing your hormone levels with Finasteride, which is a backwards and stupid approach, which was born out of convenience from Merk, and bought out of desperation from men who have few options!

FinFighter, I do not mean to be antagonistic as you seem to be genuine in your approach adding to help in "the cause." However can you play devils advocate for a moment and say what are the reason(s) not to use CB-03-01?

I'm wondering aloud here if I could bring some of this CB clinical information to my endocrinologist next month - for the ED I'm experiencing (I actually scheduled myself visits with 2 different endo's, 1 day apart)?? I have no idea if they would scoff at this or if they could give any type of guidance as it relates to how CB affects your body (compared to finasteride). I'm bringing this up because I want to trust the professionals so badly.
 

Ende

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finfighter said:
It's really pretty simple, research scientists have made new molecules (CB-03-01) which have a higher affinity for androgn receptors than DHT or T, so you can use these molecules to stop your hair loss, instead of internally suppressing your hormone levels with Finasteride, which is a backwards and stupid approach, which was born out of convenience from Merk, and bought out of desperation from men who have few options!
lol, it's true, and it's sad. I often think how different my life would be now, if Prostrakan didn't stop development of RU58841. It would have reached the market before I began any hair loss treatments.
 

Mens Rea

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Enden said:
finfighter said:
It's really pretty simple, research scientists have made new molecules (CB-03-01) which have a higher affinity for androgn receptors than DHT or T, so you can use these molecules to stop your hair loss, instead of internally suppressing your hormone levels with Finasteride, which is a backwards and stupid approach, which was born out of convenience from Merk, and bought out of desperation from men who have few options!
lol, it's true, and it's sad. I often think how different my life would be now, if Prostrakan didn't stop development of RU58841. It would have reached the market before I began any hair loss treatments.


We don't know why they did but it's somewhat worrying IMO. Giving up such a potentially huge cash-cow isn't something any company gives up lightly.
 

Ende

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They didn't get a partner. They calculated that the income would be $100 - $200 million a year - if I remember correctly, which is at least 50% less than Merck gets from Propecia, and even that's obviously chump change compared to what they expected. It's all about money. Nothing else. Why bother to make a drug that apparently gives the same result as Propecia, and is just as inconvenient to use as Rogaine? Sadly, they were wrong. It's more effective, it doesn't have any side effects at the correct dose. People can live with applying a liniment every night. I guess the income would be at least $500 million a year, when the income from Propecia is around $400 million a year.
 

StoptheMadness

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It's been 11 days since I've been off propecia......My ED symptons have improved (unassisted erections, 100% full). And even a little "thicker"/whiter semen

What messes with my head now is that I also saw a urologist today in the Chicagoland area (I scheduled this visit 11 days ago when my ED symptons began).

I checked out clean (normal levels of T, but he couldn't comment on ratios). He told me that I am and will be getting back to normal which was very reassuring......I told him I was to see an endocrinologist in 3 weeks so he gave me a note to give to the endo that in addition to whatever tests the endo will give, for me to also take 1) sex hormone binding globulin test 2) urinalysis

Follow up visit with the urologist in 6 weeks. He did no think that finasteride was responsible for my ED. Curiously, I asked if I could start propecia again and he said that would be fine......
 

StoptheMadness

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finfighter said:
StoptheMadness said:
It's been 11 days since I've been off propecia......My ED symptons have improved (unassisted erections, 100% full). And even a little "thicker"/whiter semen

What messes with my head now is that I also saw a urologist today in the Chicagoland area (I scheduled this visit 11 days ago when my ED symptons began).

I checked out clean (normal levels of T, but he couldn't comment on ratios). He told me that I am and will be getting back to normal which was very reassuring......I told him I was to see an endocrinologist in 3 weeks so he gave me a note to give to the endo that in addition to whatever tests the endo will give, for me to also take 1) sex hormone binding globulin test 2) urinalysis

Follow up visit with the urologist in 6 weeks. He did no think that finasteride was responsible for my ED. Curiously, I asked if I could start propecia again and he said that would be fine......


What were your DHT levels?
great. the lab only tested testosterone and free testerone. I imagine the Endo will test me for DHT.

I am just looking at my labs right now and the lab report flagged Free T at 8.3. However my urologist said that my T is in normal range so I'm totally confused because my free T was "flagged" and he didn't mention DHT?
 

StoptheMadness

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UPDATE: blood test results: normal Testosterone but high SHB

The following blood test was taken one month after stopping finasteride:
SHBG 70.65 73.21 (14.5-48.4)
total Telogen Effluvium 738.00 (208.00-800.00)
free Telogen Effluvium 34.98 (15.5-102.0)
urinalysis normal
prolactin 7.9


Endo's note's:
There is a small literature about T elevation seen during treatment with 5-alpha reductase inhibitors. At present, the T is normal. It is true that high estrogen levels can cause elevation of SHBG. As you mentioned (emphasis added, h/t Enden), estrogens may be produced from androgen precursors. However, the literature does not lead me to a firm conclusion about the ability of 5-alpha reductase treatment to results in these last two effects.

There may be a relatively long timeframe for changes to be seen in the levels of circulation globulins, after revision of any influence that had been formerly exerting an effect upon its levels. I might expect another month to be necessary before complete normalization occurs, if indeed a medication had resulted in the elevation seen. Persistent elevation would be reason to measure estrone and estradiol and, if these hormones are elevated without explanation in the untreated condition, then there should be a search for a source.
 

Mens Rea

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Re: UPDATE: blood test results: normal Testosterone but high SHB

StoptheMadness said:
The following blood test was taken one month after stopping finasteride:
SHBG 70.65 73.21 (14.5-48.4)
total Telogen Effluvium 738.00 (208.00-800.00)
free Telogen Effluvium 34.98 (15.5-102.0)
urinalysis normal
prolactin 7.9


Endo's note's:
There is a small literature about T elevation seen during treatment with 5-alpha reductase inhibitors. At present, the T is normal. It is true that high estrogen levels can cause elevation of SHBG. As you mentioned (emphasis added, h/t Enden), estrogens may be produced from androgen precursors. However, the literature does not lead me to a firm conclusion about the ability of 5-alpha reductase treatment to results in these last two effects.

There may be a relatively long timeframe for changes to be seen in the levels of circulation globulins, after revision of any influence that had been formerly exerting an effect upon its levels. I might expect another month to be necessary before complete normalization occurs, if indeed a medication had resulted in the elevation seen. Persistent elevation would be reason to measure estrone and estradiol and, if these hormones are elevated without explanation in the untreated condition, then there should be a search for a source.

Interesting that your endo took time to write that. That's refreshing.

He shouldn't "need" a reason to look at estrogen though.

Your SHBG is definately heavily elevated. Hopefully this will go down over the next few weeks. Nettle Root Extract would help you here.

You say you have 100% erections again. It would appear you should return to normal very soon if you haven't already.

Just keep it clean for a few weeks and see how you feel.
 

StoptheMadness

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Re: UPDATE: blood test results: normal Testosterone but high SHB

finfighter said:
Are you still having ED symptoms at all?
zero ED symptoms since coming off finasteride 1 month ago

conversely,
my erections *seem* harder than they have ever been (counterintuitively speaking I don't know what this portends for the future). The erection is almost at a hard 90 degree angle when in full tumescence.

Weirdly I don't "shoot" out the ejaculate as I did many times when I was on Propecia. It merely drips out but the consistency is "stickier"/globular and has more color to it than the transparent ejaculate of when I was on Propecia.
 

StoptheMadness

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Re: UPDATE: blood test results: normal Testosterone but high SHB

Both my endo and urologist, while not recommending Propecia in general, said they see no reason why I couldn't go back on it??!! they don't fully understand. they are naturally only going be the literature they they only know. They have no idea about the new studies from Traish, Irwig, etc.

Mens Rea said:
He shouldn't "need" a reason to look at estrogen though.
Do you mean that sarcastically? :)

She said since I am not having ED symptoms now there wouldn't be a great enough reason to test for Estrogen


Mens Rea said:
Your SHBG is definately heavily elevated. Hopefully this will go down over the next few weeks. Nettle Root Extract would help you here.
way high. but obviously my endo didn't think it worrisome enough to intervene. I am scheduled to see her on june 21st. I imagine I'll take another SHBG test to see if it goes down. I won't take anything to counteract the elevated level though in order to see if it goes down naturally.

Mens Rea said:
You say you have 100% erections again. It would appear you should return to normal very soon if you haven't already.
It's normal yes, but the only noticeable difference's I have noticed are explained in the previous post.

Mens Rea said:
Just keep it clean for a few weeks and see how you feel.
By what do you mean to "keep it clean"? :)
 

Mens Rea

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Re: UPDATE: blood test results: normal Testosterone but high SHB

StoptheMadness said:
Both my endo and urologist, while not recommending Propecia in general, said they see no reason why I couldn't go back on it??!! they don't fully understand. they are naturally only going be the literature they they only know. They have no idea about the new studies from Traish, Irwig, etc.

Mens Rea said:
He shouldn't "need" a reason to look at estrogen though.
Do you mean that sarcastically? :)

She said since I am not having ED symptoms now there wouldn't be a great enough reason to test for Estrogen


[quote="Mens Rea":12igkmm6]Your SHBG is definately heavily elevated. Hopefully this will go down over the next few weeks. Nettle Root Extract would help you here.
way high. but obviously my endo didn't think it worrisome enough to intervene. I am scheduled to see her on june 21st. I imagine I'll take another SHBG test to see if it goes down. I won't take anything to counteract the elevated level though in order to see if it goes down naturally.

Mens Rea said:
You say you have 100% erections again. It would appear you should return to normal very soon if you haven't already.
It's normal yes, but the only noticeable difference's I have noticed are explained in the previous post.

Mens Rea said:
Just keep it clean for a few weeks and see how you feel.
By what do you mean to "keep it clean"? :)[/quote:12igkmm6]


No i wasn't being sarcastic. It's not a big thing to ask, your endo acted like it was a special measure to measure estrogen. It's a basic thing to do that should done alongside testosterone every single time. If things change it would have been very useful knowing what your estrogen level was when you felt good. No point wondering when it's too late.

As for SHBG, i've seen some wide ranges...as high as 10-90. 70 is no doubt high but there is no alarm due to symptoms. You feel "okay" for the most part so there's no reason to interfer here.

As for keeping it clean. I mean, refrain from much alcohol, excessive masturbation and live a healthy lifestyle for a while to ensure your body settles.
 

droit

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StoptheMadness,

It seems like you have the most attentive endocrinologist I’ve ever heard of on these forums. Please, please follow up with these doctors and post any diagnostics or information that may be helpful to this forum.
 
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