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Guest
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I sense tension.
It is only fair that I screw both of your gf's to even the score.
It is only fair that I screw both of your gf's to even the score.
the penetration enhancer is octyl salicylate. The liquid is fully oil mixable. In a study of topical finasteride, they used 0.025% finasteride, 25% propylene glycol, 50% ethanol, and 25% water. 0.75% of the finasteride was absorbed. When they added I think 10% octyl salicylate to the mix, finasteride absorption increased to 7.5% of the applied amount. Finasteride and spironolactone are both steroids, and look similar. They both have similar solubilities too. So I think the octyl salicylate should have the same absorption effects as the finasteride. You could just add some octyle salicylate to lipoxidil's spironolactone for better results. 3mL should do. Too much and it won't dissolve.
If you put spironolactone in a liquid by itself, it will probably be stable a month or maybe more. You could make smaller batches and refridgerate them, but I think a cold topical might close your pores and reduce absorption. spironolactone is most stable at pH 4.3. At that pH, it should last longer even at room temperature. I don't know how long, but just that it lasts longer. spironolactone reacts with minoxidil. Caffine also reacts with minoxidil. Keto and pirotone olamine both are most stable around pH 6. So if you mix spironolactone with them, it is hard to make both last long. Copper peptides are also most stable at pH 6. Most shampoos are pH 5.5 or 6, but you can't mix spironolactone with the peptides and expect both to last long.
I don't know how to make shampoos penetrate better, though I guess nizoral penetrates very well. I add a little propylene glycol to my babyshampo.
The common sense preservation methods I'm sure you could think of are to make less at time and store it in the fridge. The way to adjust the pH is to add something acidic to the shampoo in the right amount. I don't recommend adding it to nizoral, since lower pH could damage the keto. But I can take some babyshampoo to the lab and see how much synthetic lemon juice is required to lower 8oz to pH 4.3, then tell you. Vitamin C actually buffers right there, and would be therapudic. The problem is even with BHT added, a solution of Vitamin C is very unstable, and actually breaks down to for free radicals in 1 week tops. Sounds far fetched since I've seen sun blocks that have vitamin C, but Old Baldy has read this many places. So I'm just playing it safe and not using it.
I still want to maybe grind some vitamin C up every few days, mix it in water, drink most of it, and put 1mL on my head. I'd be careful to make it dilute though.
If you put spironolactone in a liquid by itself, it will probably be stable a month or maybe more. You could make smaller batches and refridgerate them, but I think a cold topical might close your pores and reduce absorption. spironolactone is most stable at pH 4.3. At that pH, it should last longer even at room temperature. I don't know how long, but just that it lasts longer. spironolactone reacts with minoxidil. Caffine also reacts with minoxidil. Keto and pirotone olamine both are most stable around pH 6. So if you mix spironolactone with them, it is hard to make both last long. Copper peptides are also most stable at pH 6. Most shampoos are pH 5.5 or 6, but you can't mix spironolactone with the peptides and expect both to last long.
I don't know how to make shampoos penetrate better, though I guess nizoral penetrates very well. I add a little propylene glycol to my babyshampo.
The common sense preservation methods I'm sure you could think of are to make less at time and store it in the fridge. The way to adjust the pH is to add something acidic to the shampoo in the right amount. I don't recommend adding it to nizoral, since lower pH could damage the keto. But I can take some babyshampoo to the lab and see how much synthetic lemon juice is required to lower 8oz to pH 4.3, then tell you. Vitamin C actually buffers right there, and would be therapudic. The problem is even with BHT added, a solution of Vitamin C is very unstable, and actually breaks down to for free radicals in 1 week tops. Sounds far fetched since I've seen sun blocks that have vitamin C, but Old Baldy has read this many places. So I'm just playing it safe and not using it.
I still want to maybe grind some vitamin C up every few days, mix it in water, drink most of it, and put 1mL on my head. I'd be careful to make it dilute though.
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Where can I purchase octyl salicylate from?
http://www.lemelange.com/oil_liquid_cream_wax_g_-_p.htm
there it is. Technical grade. Also have some oleic acid if you want it. They have polysorbate 80 and propylene glycol here to. Lot's of good stuff. I got the 16oz bottle, but i think that was way too much. 100mL is pretty decent. You can't dissolve a lot of octyl salicylate in your mixes, at least not without a little polysorbate 80. Pre-wash your scalp with a little oleic acid and polysorbate 80 from puritanspride.com before shampooing, and you should absorb even more when you apply the spironolactone afterwards.
get retin-a from Dr Lee.
there it is. Technical grade. Also have some oleic acid if you want it. They have polysorbate 80 and propylene glycol here to. Lot's of good stuff. I got the 16oz bottle, but i think that was way too much. 100mL is pretty decent. You can't dissolve a lot of octyl salicylate in your mixes, at least not without a little polysorbate 80. Pre-wash your scalp with a little oleic acid and polysorbate 80 from puritanspride.com before shampooing, and you should absorb even more when you apply the spironolactone afterwards.
get retin-a from Dr Lee.
Felk
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 4
Jebus mate, i'm serious, don't listen to CCS he is a lying madman.
As for what I know about the effects of antiandrogens in shampoos - next to nothing. Nizoral works, probably due to it's AA function, that's it.
Why mess around trying to create a new treatment when you yourself say you've got no idea about making this kinda stuff? Stick to the proven treatments, stick to what there's evidence for.
As for what I know about the effects of antiandrogens in shampoos - next to nothing. Nizoral works, probably due to it's AA function, that's it.
Why mess around trying to create a new treatment when you yourself say you've got no idea about making this kinda stuff? Stick to the proven treatments, stick to what there's evidence for.
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Guest
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Cause I cant use internals.. they give me SEVERE acne
Felk
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 4
Then use minoxidil and nizoral. If you want to add something else, use a copper peptide. Or you can try out spironolactone or revivogen or one of those topicals which are targeted against DHT. Maybe even look up the RU antiandrogen, which, if obtained and mixed properly, should be at least as effective as propecia (there are studies and old threads around).
As for shampoos, nizoral is probably going to be a lot better than mucking around with some new creation of yours.
As for shampoos, nizoral is probably going to be a lot better than mucking around with some new creation of yours.
Felk said:
wouldn't that involve guess work on how to mix it up, Felk? Or are you suggesting we use the same vehicle that was used on the monkees in the study Bryan post, just like I'm suggesting he use the same vehicle that gave max penetration in other studies Bryan posted. What do you think is so bad about about adding a known penetration enhanser like octyl salicylate to Lipoxidil's spironolactone? I'm just suggesting 5%, to increase penetration 10x.
And you are extremely irresponsible for suggesting he rely on nizoral and minoxidil. He definitely needs spironolactone and revivogen, whichever he can handle. They are not extras.
BTW, lipoxidil's spironolactone has Retin-A, another penetration enhancer, anti-oxidant, and androgen receptor down regulator. Much better than Lee's spironolactone.
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Guest
Guest
GO CCS
Note Felk the title of this sub-board...EXPERIMENTAL treatments, if you want to advise only on proven, commercial products there are other sections of the board that cater to that.
I need some advice CCS and also you too Felk.
I am 22 years old, thinning hairline at 18 onwards, gradually. Two older brothers are 34 and 35, both similar pattern to me and at similar age started to bald. They are Norwood 4-5's father is 66 has been norwood 7 for a while. I started losing my crown about a year ago. My hairline was going fast. dutasteride. SEEMS to have halted it...another 6 months shall tell.
Currently using Dutasteride 0.5mg with great success. Totally regrown my crown and fuzzy all over male pattern baldness area. I have just ordered Nizoral 2%...will use it one day, then T-Gel with Piroctone Olamine the the next day.
BEFORE DUTASTERIDE
AFTER 6 MONTHS DUTASTERIDE
HAIRLINE
So obviously I respond well to Dutasteride. My hairline has retreated too much to expect meds to bring it back, therefore a hair transplant is the only solution for it, which I plan to get in around 6 months (assuming by that time I will have concluded dutasteride. as a long term solution).
Now...I am not 100% confidant though. I believe all medications have time-limitations. I believe I have probably slowed down my balding a lot, but have not stopped it. I don't want to stick with that. I want a plan whereby I'll be confidant enough to say that I can maintain for about 20 years (by that time I probably won't need to there should be a killer cure by then, probably nuclear war :s)
So I need a worthy recomendation. I still have around half the DHT in my scalp still tryna rape my hair follicles. My dream solution would be 2.5mg dutasteride and RU58841, and maybe a supplemental concoction of other stuff. But I can't afford all that, so I need something that is reasonably priced, no doubt in it's effectiveness as a DHT inhibitor/receptor blocker IN VIVO <important!
I've researched tons, and I'm thinking about using minoxidil, although initially I was utterly against it, because for the effort of twice daily applications and STILL not tackling the underlying cause of male pattern baldness. But then I started to think, who cares about underlying cause, it will grow me hair and the effect of male pattern baldness will be delayed for years. Plus at $120 a years supply, who can argue with that, just the stupid twice daily applications that will annoy me, but then I can switch to once daily after a year to maintain results right?
So any advice will be appreciated. Don't say eucapil or revivogen or any other crap like that. Something long term and that will seriously hit hard the other 50% of DHT still floatin' around.
Thank you!
Note Felk the title of this sub-board...EXPERIMENTAL treatments, if you want to advise only on proven, commercial products there are other sections of the board that cater to that.
I need some advice CCS and also you too Felk.
I am 22 years old, thinning hairline at 18 onwards, gradually. Two older brothers are 34 and 35, both similar pattern to me and at similar age started to bald. They are Norwood 4-5's father is 66 has been norwood 7 for a while. I started losing my crown about a year ago. My hairline was going fast. dutasteride. SEEMS to have halted it...another 6 months shall tell.
Currently using Dutasteride 0.5mg with great success. Totally regrown my crown and fuzzy all over male pattern baldness area. I have just ordered Nizoral 2%...will use it one day, then T-Gel with Piroctone Olamine the the next day.
BEFORE DUTASTERIDE
AFTER 6 MONTHS DUTASTERIDE
HAIRLINE
So obviously I respond well to Dutasteride. My hairline has retreated too much to expect meds to bring it back, therefore a hair transplant is the only solution for it, which I plan to get in around 6 months (assuming by that time I will have concluded dutasteride. as a long term solution).
Now...I am not 100% confidant though. I believe all medications have time-limitations. I believe I have probably slowed down my balding a lot, but have not stopped it. I don't want to stick with that. I want a plan whereby I'll be confidant enough to say that I can maintain for about 20 years (by that time I probably won't need to there should be a killer cure by then, probably nuclear war :s)
So I need a worthy recomendation. I still have around half the DHT in my scalp still tryna rape my hair follicles. My dream solution would be 2.5mg dutasteride and RU58841, and maybe a supplemental concoction of other stuff. But I can't afford all that, so I need something that is reasonably priced, no doubt in it's effectiveness as a DHT inhibitor/receptor blocker IN VIVO <important!
I've researched tons, and I'm thinking about using minoxidil, although initially I was utterly against it, because for the effort of twice daily applications and STILL not tackling the underlying cause of male pattern baldness. But then I started to think, who cares about underlying cause, it will grow me hair and the effect of male pattern baldness will be delayed for years. Plus at $120 a years supply, who can argue with that, just the stupid twice daily applications that will annoy me, but then I can switch to once daily after a year to maintain results right?
So any advice will be appreciated. Don't say eucapil or revivogen or any other crap like that. Something long term and that will seriously hit hard the other 50% of DHT still floatin' around.
Thank you!
Felk
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 4
hammy07 said:
You take the side of a mad, pathological liar, hijack another person's thread then you expect advice?
Well instead of just ignoring this thread I'll give it to you. Read these boards more. Read CCS's posts a lot more, and the posts about him.
I was there at the beginning when he first came, and watched with disbelief as his crude formulating mind proceeded to dominate this forum with strange ideas. A month of two of forum trolling, and his post count was up to a level that, (when combined with the spouting of numbers and chemicals foreign to newbies) gave off the impression that he knew what he was talking about. He was telling people to combine drugs and dissolve 5AR2 inhibitors into their topicals. He took samples from many posters and performed a bunch of weird tests of them which proved nothing, and admitted he could have screwed up.
Ask anyone here knowledgeable about hair loss what they think of CCS and his advice, and then get back to me.
Read any of his posts in the off topic forum about women and note the suggestions from other posters that he obtains psychiatric help. I remember one thread in particular where we all agreed he seemed at least a little autistic.
Go to the thread "first time sexual stuff" and see how everyone eventually has had enough of his lies and loses it with him (note beaner earlier in this thread, a clear example). Note how he is described as a "troll" and a "pathological liar" by the moderators, and a ban is suggested. Note how the thread is now locked.
Now do you still feel like chanting "GO CCS"?
hairwegoagain
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 6
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Guest
Guest
I don't know him well.
But he does know a thing or two. I'm a bit autistic too, and I have ADHD....makes us GENIUSES. Ilike shiny lights....I really do...:woot:
But seriously, I just bought a years supply of minoxidil 5% and a handful of tubes of retin A 0.025%.
Special offer, $120 for a years kirkland minoxidil. ;-)
I'm going to use this NOW rather than 6 months later. I'm quite satisfied withthe top of the head although it has experienced thinning but not enough to say I am thinning, if you know what I mean. Using minoxidil + retin A could possibly restore it to native thickness and keep it above baseline for years and years and years.
If I'm above baseline in 5 years using Dutasteride 0.5mg everyday, 5% minoxidil with retin A and Nizoral 2% 3 times a week, then I'll be a very happy chappy.
Wow I'm on the big 3! Or should it be called the big 3+ deluxe regimen (because of retin A and dutasteride).
If this fails I will make a clone of myself, grow him till he reaches puberty, then humanely cease his existance. Take the back of his head and I'll have about 15 thousand genetically identical grafts. Which I shall employ a good surgeon to transplant!
Hey that's a good idea...stupid bio-ethics.
But he does know a thing or two. I'm a bit autistic too, and I have ADHD....makes us GENIUSES. Ilike shiny lights....I really do...:woot:
But seriously, I just bought a years supply of minoxidil 5% and a handful of tubes of retin A 0.025%.
Special offer, $120 for a years kirkland minoxidil. ;-)
I'm going to use this NOW rather than 6 months later. I'm quite satisfied withthe top of the head although it has experienced thinning but not enough to say I am thinning, if you know what I mean. Using minoxidil + retin A could possibly restore it to native thickness and keep it above baseline for years and years and years.
If I'm above baseline in 5 years using Dutasteride 0.5mg everyday, 5% minoxidil with retin A and Nizoral 2% 3 times a week, then I'll be a very happy chappy.
Wow I'm on the big 3! Or should it be called the big 3+ deluxe regimen (because of retin A and dutasteride).
If this fails I will make a clone of myself, grow him till he reaches puberty, then humanely cease his existance. Take the back of his head and I'll have about 15 thousand genetically identical grafts. Which I shall employ a good surgeon to transplant!
Hey that's a good idea...stupid bio-ethics.
G
Guest
Guest
I didn't mean to hijack a thread sorry. I just felt like posting when the idea came to me and I impulsively clicked reply.
Continue with main topic I will open a newer one later on.
Continue with main topic I will open a newer one later on.
purecontrol
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 10
Re:
I would love to see what the hormone chemistry is of people that get these negative side effects vers those that don't.
This can not be caused by high DHT as that is what you are lowering so it must be the estrogen, but where it would get ineresting is to see what your levels of different estrogens were?
Women with estrogen dominace problems IE higher than normal estradiol levels experience, severe acne, fat gain, tiredness, sore breasts, mood swings, sleeplesnes, ect ect In order to fix their problems women are using Progesterone, DIM, and Pomegranate to name a few.
Perhaps you could consider using these and checking your specific estrogen levels along with DHT level. I would recomend saliva testing as it measure free hormones ie active ones.
Jebus said:
I would love to see what the hormone chemistry is of people that get these negative side effects vers those that don't.
This can not be caused by high DHT as that is what you are lowering so it must be the estrogen, but where it would get ineresting is to see what your levels of different estrogens were?
Women with estrogen dominace problems IE higher than normal estradiol levels experience, severe acne, fat gain, tiredness, sore breasts, mood swings, sleeplesnes, ect ect In order to fix their problems women are using Progesterone, DIM, and Pomegranate to name a few.
Perhaps you could consider using these and checking your specific estrogen levels along with DHT level. I would recomend saliva testing as it measure free hormones ie active ones.