Circulation - Blood flow - water retention

[The Gardener]

Knock knock... anybody home here?

Please. Blood flow is not a factor with male pattern baldness. First off, the head and scalp is already awash in blood. Anybody who has ever shaven and cut himself will attest to that.

Second, this theory that male pattern baldness causes water retention which somehow (please prove this!?) causes a decrease in blood flow which in turn causes male pattern baldness is bunk. If this were the case, consider Minoxidil. Minoxidil INCREASES water retention, thus some occasional complaints of facial puffiness. If water retention were a factor in male pattern baldness, then how could Minoxidil be the best proven anti-male pattern baldness regrowth agent around?

I am sorry, but one glance into the vascular map of the human torso in Grey's Anatomy will disprove all theories that some sort of 'blood flow' deficiency might possibly be a factor in male pattern baldness. There is triple the blood flowing through the scalp than there is on any other skin surface of the body.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but male pattern baldness is caused by hormones and genetics. Face it. You can massage, hand upside down, etc, to your heart's content but your *** is still going bald until you address the science that has been proven.

 

[thin=depressed]

Knock knock... anybody home here?

Please. Blood flow is not a factor with male pattern baldness. First off, the head and scalp is already awash in blood. Anybody who has ever shaven and cut himself will attest to that.

Second, this theory that male pattern baldness causes water retention which somehow (please prove this!?) causes a decrease in blood flow which in turn causes male pattern baldness is bunk. If this were the case, consider Minoxidil. Minoxidil INCREASES water retention, thus some occasional complaints of facial puffiness. If water retention were a factor in male pattern baldness, then how could Minoxidil be the best proven anti-male pattern baldness regrowth agent around?

I am sorry, but one glance into the vascular map of the human torso in Grey's Anatomy will disprove all theories that some sort of 'blood flow' deficiency might possibly be a factor in male pattern baldness. There is triple the blood flowing through the scalp than there is on any other skin surface of the body.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but male pattern baldness is caused by hormones and genetics. Face it. You can massage, hand upside down, etc, to your heart's content but your *** is still going bald until you address the science that has been proven.

multiple factors that go beyond you limited scope............

 

[S Foote.]

Knock knock... anybody home here?

Please. Blood flow is not a factor with male pattern baldness. First off, the head and scalp is already awash in blood. Anybody who has ever shaven and cut himself will attest to that.

Second, this theory that male pattern baldness causes water retention which somehow (please prove this!?) causes a decrease in blood flow which in turn causes male pattern baldness is bunk. If this were the case, consider Minoxidil. Minoxidil INCREASES water retention, thus some occasional complaints of facial puffiness. If water retention were a factor in male pattern baldness, then how could Minoxidil be the best proven anti-male pattern baldness regrowth agent around?

I am sorry, but one glance into the vascular map of the human torso in Grey's Anatomy will disprove all theories that some sort of 'blood flow' deficiency might possibly be a factor in male pattern baldness. There is triple the blood flowing through the scalp than there is on any other skin surface of the body.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but male pattern baldness is caused by hormones and genetics. Face it. You can massage, hand upside down, etc, to your heart's content but your *** is still going bald until you address the science that has been proven.

I think the term `blood flow', is misleading here.

My arguments are based on tissue fluid levels in the balding scalp!

There is no dispute that the scalp has more than enough blood `feed', this is part of my argument! I don't think that any lack of blood supply is directly implicated in male pattern baldness!

What i do think is that there is too `much' blood supply to the balding scalp, and not enough drainage!

I suggest that DHT is effecting the lymphatic system to reduce lymph drainage from the scalp. In individuals with a high fluid `feed' to the scalp, this is reducing fluid drainage causing fluid retention.

I suggest this is why the arterial ligiture procedure described here improves the situation! http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/artery_ligature.htm This reduces the blood `feed' to the male pattern baldness area!

S Foote.

 

[Old Baldy]

I don't know Gardener. It would seem all of us suffering from male pattern baldness could improve our scalp health. The fact that blood shows when we cut our scalp doesn't really mean much as far as scalp health is concerned IMHO.

You're putting the massage and circulation type of therapies into the snakeoil category and I know what you mean.

But it is a fact that our skin gets thinner and more constrictive as we get older. And the older we get the balder alot of us get. Scalp health can help treat the "old age" type of balding we all eventually come down with.

Who's to say that that "old age" balding only occurs when we are "old"?

 

[Bryan]

But "The Gardener" didn't say anything about scalp health per se! All his remarks were confined to the specific (and false) issue of blood flow, and blood flow ONLY!

Bryan

 

[thin=depressed]

Indeed blood flow is misleading. Its water hydration level on a fine scale that is of concern here. Fact: spironolactone is a diuretic and its naive of any spironolactone user to think that has absolutely no effect on its effectiveness in thier hair loss.

 

[thin=depressed]

Spironolactone/Aldactone:
Dermatologists prescribe a high blood pressure medication called spironolactone (brand name Aldactone) to treat androgenetic alopecia. Spironolactone is actually a drug used to treat high blood pressure and is a diuretic that retains potassium while excreting sodium and water. This medication counteracts a hormone called aldosterone, which is responsible for regulating the body's salt and potassium. As an anti-androgen, it blocks DHT from binding to it's receptor in the hair follicle. It will also slow down production of androgens within the adrenal gland.

 

[Bryan]

Looks like Stephen Foote has gained a disciple...

Bryan

 

[Old Baldy]

But "The Gardener" didn't say anything about scalp health per se! All his remarks were confined to the specific (and false) issue of blood flow, and blood flow ONLY!

Bryan

Good point. Sorry Gardener, misread your post!

Now is poor blood flow and improper fluid flow an aggravating condition for us male pattern baldness sufferers? Maybe, I keep waffling on that one. I need to understand male pattern baldness better. (I have to reread things over and over and over again.)

I think, so far from what I've "learned" Thin, that if you block the effects of DHT, the "other" aggravating conditions fall by the wayside? (Except for scalp health and the ability to grow healthy hair, whether or not affected by DHT.)

We've all seen people with full heads of hair that look like sh**. You know, straw like hair that has no body of "life".

 

[The Gardener]

Let me begin by saying that none of my contributions here are intended to discredit or demean anybody. I, personally, certainly do not know the details of the physics of male pattern baldness, but I post here in the ongoing exchange of ideas, often emotionally yet respectfully, so we can exchange and joust and pursue the truth.

To the topic at hand. First off, blood flow is NOT a consideration for a cause of male pattern baldness. Certainly, as we all get older circulation becomes a problem. However, this being a constant of ageing, if circulation were a factor in male pattern baldness, why would it ONLY effect the temples and bald spot areas and not the sides of the head? If the ageing - circulation - male pattern baldness theory were true, then certainly ALL of the head would be affected by male pattern baldness evenly, and not just the areas of the scalp that are traditionally proven to be hormonally affected.

As for water retention, I have not looked into this much, personally. Thin/depressed mentions that spironolactone is a diuretic, and that perhaps its efficacy might highlight water retention as a factor in male pattern baldness. However, if water retention were an issue, one must consider that Minoxidil has a side effect of increased water retention. minoxidil is the best proven regrowth agent on the market. If it increases water retention, and still manages to be a statistically proven agent to not only maintain, but REGROW hair, then does that not raise some questions about this theory?

As for the use of scalp massage to improve scalp health... I have no opinions pro nor con on that. Obviously scalp health helps delay male pattern baldness. If massage helps with this, then I definitely would not discount it. I admit, I massage my own scalp from time to time. Not because I think it will help my male pattern baldness, but moreso because it is relaxing, it feels good, and afterwards my scalp feels like it needed it.

 

[Old Baldy]

Yes Gardener, after rereading your posts, I agree with you. I just misread what you were saying.

I also know that when I keep talking about scalp health it sounds rather nebulous.

Old age balding occurs all over the head and when I put those wacko concoctions I make on my head ( herbals, oils, etc.) I apply it everywhere. Top, back and sides of the head. I even spread some of the lather from Nizoral and Nano shampoos, etc., into the sides of the head.

My father never had male pattern baldness but now, in his eighties, has old age thinning. He was a clinical psychologist by profession so he has some medical training. He said that his type of thinning is due to the inability of the scalp to support as much hair as he had when he was young. He thinks the herbals and all other wacko concoctions I'm tossing all over my head will probably help. He made it clear to me that the skin is a rather tough barrier but it does metabolize, to some extent, solutions put on it.

He also made it clear to me that I shouldn't think of my concoctions as some type of cureall. They aren't he said pretty strongly, but they should help.

Will my father use my topicals? He** no, he's a WWII veteran for Godsakes! He looks at that as "sissy" stuff! :lol: :lol: :lol:

He just shakes his head and says jokingly to my mother, "where did we go wrong (with me) mother"! :shock: :shock:

The really stupid question is why did I wait 51 years to ask my father about male pattern baldness?! :hairy: (He knew all about finasteride. He said, "yes, gets rid of the type II enzyme"!! WTF!!)

 

[S Foote.]

Let me begin by saying that none of my contributions here are intended to discredit or demean anybody. I, personally, certainly do not know the details of the physics of male pattern baldness, but I post here in the ongoing exchange of ideas, often emotionally yet respectfully, so we can exchange and joust and pursue the truth.

To the topic at hand. First off, blood flow is NOT a consideration for a cause of male pattern baldness. Certainly, as we all get older circulation becomes a problem. However, this being a constant of ageing, if circulation were a factor in male pattern baldness, why would it ONLY effect the temples and bald spot areas and not the sides of the head? If the ageing - circulation - male pattern baldness theory were true, then certainly ALL of the head would be affected by male pattern baldness evenly, and not just the areas of the scalp that are traditionally proven to be hormonally affected.

As for water retention, I have not looked into this much, personally. Thin/depressed mentions that spironolactone is a diuretic, and that perhaps its efficacy might highlight water retention as a factor in male pattern baldness. However, if water retention were an issue, one must consider that Minoxidil has a side effect of increased water retention. minoxidil is the best proven regrowth agent on the market. If it increases water retention, and still manages to be a statistically proven agent to not only maintain, but REGROW hair, then does that not raise some questions about this theory?

As for the use of scalp massage to improve scalp health... I have no opinions pro nor con on that. Obviously scalp health helps delay male pattern baldness. If massage helps with this, then I definitely would not discount it. I admit, I massage my own scalp from time to time. Not because I think it will help my male pattern baldness, but moreso because it is relaxing, it feels good, and afterwards my scalp feels like it needed it.

The thing people should understand here, is just how complex the bodies fluid balance can be level by level. I am suggesting, and the posted study supports, that Minoxidil creates a `shift' in the fluid volume towards the deeper tissues, `away' from the hair follicles.

You can have `swelling' due to fluid retension in a tissue, but the excess fluid is not necessarily at the level of the hair follicle!

There is actually clinical data about this in scalp tissue. In a rare condition called lipedematous scalp. In this condition, there is a fluid retention in the subcutaneous level, (the lower level of the scalp). The upper dermal layers remain normal, and there is no hair loss.
http://www.amjdermatopathology.com/pt/r ... 31!9001!-1
http://www.ehrs.org/conferenceabstracts ... ukhari.htm

In the cited cases of lipedematous alopecia, (where there is hair loss), there is evidence that the edema extends to the level of the hair follicle. In these cases the hair loss is associated with other skin problems including itching, soreness and tenderness. Does this sound familiar!
http://archderm.ama-assn.org/cgi/conten ... 38/11/1517
http://www.biology-online.org/dictionar ... s_alopecia

I suggest in my theory that DHT reduces lymphatic drainage from the male pattern baldness area, creating fluid retention and hair loss. The lymphatic layout of the head, and the weakness of the male pattern baldness area is clear in this diagram.
http://137.222.110.150/calnet/DeepNeck/ ... m#section6

There are also reported cases of alopecia in families with a genetic problem that creates restricted lymphatic developement.
http://www.lymphedemapeople.com/thesite ... hedema.htm

Why the scalp edema forms in lipedematous alopecia is unknown. But this condition clearly shows that scalp edema can `CAUSE' hair loss!

If you want to check if you have scalp edema, you can do the pitting edema test. This is a regular test done in medical practice.

You push a fingertip hard into the tissue for around 15 seconds. When you remove it, if there is excess fluid in the tissue, a `pit' will be formed where the finger has tempararely pushed the fluid to the sides. The deeper the pit and the longer it takes to `level off', the more fluid in the tissue.

You can do this as a comparison test. Start between the eyebrows and work upwards 1/2 an inch at a time.

This is an interesting test for someone with male pattern baldness!

S Foote.

 

[thin=depressed]

Looks like Stephen Foote has gained a disciple...

Bryan

I think the six recent studies I posted have more bearing. Snide remarks don't impress me or cross me. Read some clinical studies sometime, you might learn something. Whatever you say from hear I'll highly doubt. O.k so diurectic spironolactone has nothing to do with its effectiveness. Now are you happy.

 

[The Gardener]

Interesting, S Foote. The scalp is indeed a very complicated mechianism.

 

[Guest]

Interesting, S Foote. The scalp is indeed a very complicated mechianism.

mechianism, you have Muthaue Maughaney syndrome like me.....

 

[Bryan]

Looks like Stephen Foote has gained a disciple...

Bryan

I think the six recent studies I posted have more bearing.

What six studies are you referring to? BTW, speaking of studies, I recently asked you to cite the study which allegedly showed a benefit to hair from azelaic acid, but you made no reply. Why not?

Snide remarks don't impress me or cross me. Read some clinical studies sometime, you might learn something.

Hey, I'll make a deal with you: I'll give you a dollar for every clinical study you've read that pertains (directly or indirectly) to hairloss, and YOU give ME a dollar for every one that _I_ have read. Do we have a deal?? :wink:

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

The thing people should understand here, is just how complex the bodies fluid balance can be level by level. I am suggesting, and the posted study supports, that Minoxidil creates a `shift' in the fluid volume towards the deeper tissues, `away' from the hair follicles.

What "posted study" is it that suggests that?

You can have `swelling' due to fluid retension in a tissue, but the excess fluid is not necessarily at the level of the hair follicle!

You're an engineer, does that sound credible even to YOU?? There's pressure a few millimeters away in the scalp, but somehow it doesn't extend to the hair follicles?? Stephen, come on, man...

Bryan

 

[20sometingtoo]

My opinion:

Can increased blowflow (circulation) help diffuse thinners? I'd say yes.

Can increased blowflow (circulation) help typical male pattern baldness sufferers? I'd say maybe.

I think one of the main reasons for diffuse thinning is poor circulation. This would also corrospond with anyone who suffers from decreased efficacy in regards to memory. Do you have cold feet? Do you have cold hands? You probably have poor circulation and I recommend taking something like GNC's ArginMax. It says its for sexual disfunction, but really just serves to increase circulation.

I sincerely believe that poor circulation is directly related to MANY ailments. Probably including male pattern baldness.

Now, standing on your head for a few hours a week doesnt really increase circulation, it just pushes more blood to your head temporarily. If this were true, then everyones feet would be bright red and vascular. I think increasing blood flow is an internal issue. It needs to be done systemically.

 

[The Gardener]

The human head is literally awash in blood. Saying that the scalp has poor blood circulation is tantamount to saying the Amazon has a water flow problem. Giving yourself a simple shaving knick is an easy way to illustrate this, even a small wound can often bleed for an hour.

Other than stroke, which is a one-time traumatic event, I have not read anything linking poor memory to poor blood flow. Poor memory is a function of intracellular chemical processes in the nerve synapses, not the vascular system.

"Poor blood flow" is a simplified way of saying low blood pressure. If anything, the typical westerner has just the OPPOSITE problem, i.e. HIGH blood pressure.

 

[Bryan]

My opinion:

I sincerely believe that poor circulation is directly related to MANY ailments. Probably including male pattern baldness.

Here's a scan of a study from the 1970's in which a doctor actually claimed to IMPROVE balding by tying-off arteries to the scalp! :freaked2:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/artery_ligature.htm

It's hard to fit that in with the general idea that male pattern baldness is caused by poor blood-flow, isn't it?

Bryan