Coal Tar...............alpha five reductase inhibitor
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michael barry
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ccs,
coal tar (or something in it) did not inhibit alpha five reductase directly. It inhibited a necessary cofactor enzyme that makes a hydrogen atom available so that alpha five reductase can tack it onto testosterone thus created di-hydrotestosterone. It indirectly intereferes with alpha five reductase in this way. I thought it might be "additive" to someone who takes finasteride (like me);.
coal tar (or something in it) did not inhibit alpha five reductase directly. It inhibited a necessary cofactor enzyme that makes a hydrogen atom available so that alpha five reductase can tack it onto testosterone thus created di-hydrotestosterone. It indirectly intereferes with alpha five reductase in this way. I thought it might be "additive" to someone who takes finasteride (like me);.
michael barry
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That is a consideration CCS. However, people have been using T-gel a few days a week for many years and I dont see tons of them with scalp cancer or anything else.
I try to keep in mind, in alot of cancer studies, some poor animal or another is either fed a substance or just drenched in it for uber amounts of time and amounts relative to its body weight or very sick animals are used.........................The FDA says its safe----but whatever floats your boat man. THis one thing might be additive, but its certainly not the most important weapon in the arsenal
I try to keep in mind, in alot of cancer studies, some poor animal or another is either fed a substance or just drenched in it for uber amounts of time and amounts relative to its body weight or very sick animals are used.........................The FDA says its safe----but whatever floats your boat man. THis one thing might be additive, but its certainly not the most important weapon in the arsenal
hmm... maybe I'll add it. I don't like those zink p_ or phenytoin stuff because while they stimulate hair, I think they are androgenic. I don't use grapeseed extract because it is an aromatase inhibitor. And I don't use EGCG on your advice because of the angiosynthesis inhibition. I like multi-pronged aproaches, but I want to get the cleanest ones that just do good and little bad, since I have so many to choose from. Stinking twice a week surely won't affect my dating life.
Strat54 said:
Thanks Strat54!
Look at my avatar. Why does the placebo group drop only slightly the first year, then take off downhill. Do you think the tar shampoo stank to bad for them to bother with it the second year? And coincidentally, the propecia group declines after 2 years, when they are no longer using the coal tar. Remember this is a cross section of ages, not just a group of 25 year old twins who all got worse faster. Why the steeper drop off later? I bet the coal tar explains it.
michael barry
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CCS,
The chart in this study, http://www.hairlosstalk.com/download/propecia.pdf, also looks peculiar in regards to the placebo group, and the placebo group that was suddenly given finasteride later.........................
By the way...........I made a post in the finasteride forum about black tea again. I didnt know it beforehand, but finasteride is studied in mice for side effects with large dosages. Mice, rats, monkeys, and men all have two isoforms of alpha five reductase. If scientists study finasteride with mice and rats, then they must think the effect is going to be about the same as that of humans with the drug.
Serum DHT was reduced 72% with mice drinking black tea for a few weeks whenever they were merely thirsty and the increases in testosterone in serum was 34%. Hell man, if anything, it would seem drinking black tea instead of cola '*should* inhibit alpha five something like finas to me. That has to be more than type one suppression also, because type one would not make up that big a fraction of serum DHT in the mice.
I suggested that someone simply get their dht levels measured, and go back after drinking black tea with meals in a couple of weeks and have DHT remeasured. That alone would settle it. Know anyone who can do this?
The chart in this study, http://www.hairlosstalk.com/download/propecia.pdf, also looks peculiar in regards to the placebo group, and the placebo group that was suddenly given finasteride later.........................
By the way...........I made a post in the finasteride forum about black tea again. I didnt know it beforehand, but finasteride is studied in mice for side effects with large dosages. Mice, rats, monkeys, and men all have two isoforms of alpha five reductase. If scientists study finasteride with mice and rats, then they must think the effect is going to be about the same as that of humans with the drug.
Serum DHT was reduced 72% with mice drinking black tea for a few weeks whenever they were merely thirsty and the increases in testosterone in serum was 34%. Hell man, if anything, it would seem drinking black tea instead of cola '*should* inhibit alpha five something like finas to me. That has to be more than type one suppression also, because type one would not make up that big a fraction of serum DHT in the mice.
I suggested that someone simply get their dht levels measured, and go back after drinking black tea with meals in a couple of weeks and have DHT remeasured. That alone would settle it. Know anyone who can do this?
michael barry
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CCS,
Thats kind of what Im getting at................finas inhibits about 65-70 percent serum DHT in most accounts Ive read, and black tea inhibited 72. Since type one and type two are apparently somewhat different, it would appear type 2 inhibition is precisely what is happening.
It would only take one man willing to get a check on this to find out. I wish I could self administer a DHT test at home, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Black tea always tasted pretty damn good to me, especially with lime.
DId you note the coal tar placebo effect on the chart in the study I linked? Its much like the one you noticed.
Thats kind of what Im getting at................finas inhibits about 65-70 percent serum DHT in most accounts Ive read, and black tea inhibited 72. Since type one and type two are apparently somewhat different, it would appear type 2 inhibition is precisely what is happening.
It would only take one man willing to get a check on this to find out. I wish I could self administer a DHT test at home, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Black tea always tasted pretty damn good to me, especially with lime.
DId you note the coal tar placebo effect on the chart in the study I linked? Its much like the one you noticed.
I just washed my hair with regrowth shampoo this morning, and it resurrected the smell of the coal tar from last night. And leave the bathroom door open and have a fan going when you wash with that stuff. It is not bad at first, but after 2 minutes the fumes start to build up.
Regimen I suggest:
*Coal Tar shampoo at night on the day before you wash your sheets when you don't have a woman over, twice per week.
*Wash with Nizoral the next morning, and also on a 3rd day of the week too.
*Use Piroctone Olamine shampoo the other 4 days.
Put a LITTLE bit of licorice and some lavendar in the PO, and a few drops of peppermint and lavendar in the Coal Tar shampoo.
Topicals:
Night:
*Minoxidil with Retin-A and lavendar, and *Licorice Topical
Morning:
Those who can afford it can use rogaine foam, but I won't.
*Use Apple Poly/White curcumin/peppermint topical
*and Old AC spray/Tricomin EOD
and of course, internal finasteride. I rotate 1.25mg Proscar with 0.1mg Dutas.
Regimen I suggest:
*Coal Tar shampoo at night on the day before you wash your sheets when you don't have a woman over, twice per week.
*Wash with Nizoral the next morning, and also on a 3rd day of the week too.
*Use Piroctone Olamine shampoo the other 4 days.
Put a LITTLE bit of licorice and some lavendar in the PO, and a few drops of peppermint and lavendar in the Coal Tar shampoo.
Topicals:
Night:
*Minoxidil with Retin-A and lavendar, and *Licorice Topical
Morning:
Those who can afford it can use rogaine foam, but I won't.
*Use Apple Poly/White curcumin/peppermint topical
*and Old AC spray/Tricomin EOD
and of course, internal finasteride. I rotate 1.25mg Proscar with 0.1mg Dutas.
hair today gone tomorrow
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collegechemistrystudent said:
you dont think mixing some lavender and licorice in the PO shampoo or in the coal tar shampoo would effect those medicated shampoos? I have a gut feeling it would.
Do T/Gel 1% Coal Tar 2x per week, Nizoral 3x per week, and Ginger Bodyshop 2x per week. If you use NANO, which I do not recommend because it is not proven, use it as your second shampoo of the day, 3x per week.
Try to spread stuff out:
M Nizoral
T Piroctone
W Coal Tar
Th Nizoral
F Piroctone
S Nizoral
S Coal Tar
----------------------------------------------
Yeah, it is not a good idea to mess with proven shampoos. But since the piroctone one is an anti-oxidiant and has ginger extract in it, I think the a small amount of licorice or apple poly, like 0.25% each, would be OK. Since essential oils burn the scalp, they may react with the shampoos, so probably best not to put those in there. But I do think a little lavendar in the Coal tar would be safe. I doubt the lavendar is as reactive. But it may be best to put those in the topical and leave the shampoos alone.
Try to spread stuff out:
M Nizoral
T Piroctone
W Coal Tar
Th Nizoral
F Piroctone
S Nizoral
S Coal Tar
----------------------------------------------
Yeah, it is not a good idea to mess with proven shampoos. But since the piroctone one is an anti-oxidiant and has ginger extract in it, I think the a small amount of licorice or apple poly, like 0.25% each, would be OK. Since essential oils burn the scalp, they may react with the shampoos, so probably best not to put those in there. But I do think a little lavendar in the Coal tar would be safe. I doubt the lavendar is as reactive. But it may be best to put those in the topical and leave the shampoos alone.
mulder
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Curcumin is also an angiogenesis inhibitor...why are you still including that. I think the key is to add something that stimulates VEGF topically in addiiton to GTE and curcumin rather than removing them from a regimen. There's just too many positive health effects to leave them out internally at least.
hair today gone tomorrow
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collegechemistrystudent said:
internally curcumin doesn't reach adequate levels in the blood stream. so there is not point in taking it internally.
Did I read that original patent correctly in that the coal tar was 4.4% ?
I took a quick look at the local drugstore and saw that Denorex had quite a few coal tar shampoos. I'm pretty sure that one was over 10%. I'll have to return when I get a chance just to confirm.
They also had a 3% salycylic acid shampoo.
I took a quick look at the local drugstore and saw that Denorex had quite a few coal tar shampoos. I'm pretty sure that one was over 10%. I'll have to return when I get a chance just to confirm.
They also had a 3% salycylic acid shampoo.