Concoction input needed/welcomed/requested

[Jacob]

I was going to post this at alt.baldspot but there seems to be just a little more :lol: serious discussions on topicals here these days.

I'm considering having another custom topical made, but would like some feedback on some of the things I'm considering using and/or what any of you think you would add.

Here's what I plan to use so far:

Spin Traps
Luteolin
Sangre de Grado(Blood of the Dragon or Dragon's Blood)

Some I'm considering:

Biotin

Apple peel extract(maybe not since Sangre de Grado will be used)

Cu peptides or what Dr. Y mentioned: "Copper chelated in phospholipids"

Rosemary oil



I was asking him about the luteolin- can it or would it need to be nanosomed..and I guess his response would apply to some of the other ingreds as well- they can use" Nanosomes or dispersicles (our trademark for our nanoemulsion particles) or dispersosomes (our double emulsion technology) " I have read that luteolin is supposed to absorb quite well "on it's own".

The list of things one can use can be seen here(although you can request things as well): http://www.the-formulator.com/order/05select.php

One other thing to take into consideration...I most likely will also be using Equisomin again: http://www.elsomresearch.com/shopping/p ... ynergy.htm and also their NanoScalp http://www.elsomresearch.com/shopping/p ... ng-men.htm

They can sometimes add another ingredient or two to an existing product- which would cut down the costs a bit(instead of ordering a complete third topical)

 

[Jacob]

Aw man..don't make me have to post it over there. Maybe this place just looked so busy because I haven't kept up :lol:

 

[chris55]

Hey Jacob,

I usually just read these sites but i thought i would respond to this.

I like your list of ingredients. I didnt even know elsom could put in blood of the dragon, although i saw you have asked about it before. The first three are good choices. I would go with the rosemary oil (for some reason im a big fan of that stuff), and the new copper cheated in phospholipids. You may already know this but Dr. Y recently said they use zinc oxide now. That could be something to think about. Im working on a custom topical with Dr. Y also and when I gave him a list of ingredients, he suggested i add their new technology "copper cheated in phospholipids along with zinc oxide".....I would still put in apple extract just because you can never have enough pros and if you dont already have biotin in your other topicals, i would add that too. I cant really suggest anything else (things like caffeine i think you have in your other topicals), but I like how you are keeping your formula simple.

Here is what i plan to use

Apple Peel Extract
Grape Seed Extract
Rooibos
Biotin
Spin Traps
Caffeine
Copper cheated with phospholipids
Zinc Oxide

*I only plan on using this along the hairline/receded areas

I still cant decide whether i want to take out a few things and add rosemary oil or luteolin. I guess its still a work in progress. The only topicals im using right now are nanoscalp everyday and equisomin occassionally.

btw....have you ever asked about requesting "pure" procyanidins

 

[Old Baldy]

Jacob: The title of your thread is intimidating! :wink:

I'm certainly no concoction expert so all I can say is your ingredients seem good from all I've read.

What does Dr. Y say about mulberry root extract, nano, phenytoin, sophora root extract, curcumin, green tea and perilla extracts? Maybe a little arginine?

What does Dr. Y say about penetration enhancement? Is it all centered on liposomes/nanosomes? What about some common penetration enhancers like oleic acid, octyl salicylate, salicylic acid, eucalyptus essential oil, or regular oils, in moderation like the marula oil you suggested?

I know you favor a more natural approach so what about saw palmetto and bayberry extract and/or beta-sitosterol?

Please direct me to copper chelated with phospholipids info. Thanks.

I'm sorry that I have more questions than recommendations.

Also, I put rosemary essential oil into all my concoctions. Good anti-oxidant from all I've read. Idebenone is supposedly an anti-oxidant that acts like spin traps.

I can't help much because I use dutasteride./finasteride., spironolactone., Rulide and phenytoin in my topicals and I know you don't like those chemicals. Well, you don't want to use them, maybe "not like" is too strong a description.

 

[Jacob]

Chris,

Yeah...they finally gave in to the Blood of the Dragon. I don't see it on their list yet though..just like a # of things they can use.

There shouldn't be a problem combining the copper and zinc? Maybe it was another combo I'm thinking of that some had said wouldn't work together. But then again..whatever the combo was..others were saying there shouldn't be a problem.

I think there may be biotin in FNS..not sure though. I just like the idea of the nanosomal biotin. Bryan used to talk about a "study" on topical biotin. And I probably will go with the apple peel as well. Rooibos is in the ZormaZor I still use(and have quite a bit of). GSE is in the Equisomin. etc.


On the pure procyanidins..yeah I've asked them about that. They're just too expensive. If you ever find a good/fairly cheap source for them..please let them know 8)

 

[Jacob]

Old Baldy...the title of the thread was kind of an inside joke. But I guess it would have worked better at Regrowth :lol: I've changed it...maybe that'll calm some ppl's nerves.

What does Dr. Y say about mulberry root extract, nano, phenytoin, sophora root extract, curcumin, green tea and perilla extracts? Maybe a little arginine?

He does use green tea..I think it's in Equisomin. The others I don't know- maybe he's responded to some of those before. He'll respond to any questions you have though...via email or at his forum.

What does Dr. Y say about penetration enhancement? Is it all centered on liposomes/nanosomes? What about some common penetration enhancers like oleic acid, octyl salicylate, salicylic acid, eucalyptus essential oil, or regular oils, in moderation like the marula oil you suggested?

There's a page on their tech- it's not just nanosomes. I've read it a number of times and yet I still couldn't just tell you what it is. So here's the link: http://www.elsomresearch.com/learning/default.htm

I know you favor a more natural approach so what about saw palmetto and bayberry extract and/or beta-sitosterol?

If you mean topically..I wouldn't have a problem with them. They're not on the top of my list though..I guess bayberry looks the most interesting to me. I'm quite certain some of the ingreds in the topicals I use contain sterols.

Please direct me to copper chelated with phospholipids info.

I saw it at his forum....and was told via email by Dr. Y..and Chris mentioned it above. Didn't see the zinc oxide part though...or I'm just not remembering it.

I guess if I had one suggestion it would be to look into .... well, it's patented so I can't say in this paragraph. :wink:

TB4? Tell me :!: :lol:

On the chems....if something was working miracles for a lot of ppl...I may actually use it. As long as enough info(including safety) was out there.

 

[docj077]

I do not know if all this can go together, but if I had the money to put something together, I'd do the following:

Grape Seed Oil Base
Amacha
Grape Seed
Apple Peel
Green Tea
Turmeric

Plus whatever is recommended for absorption, etc.


I do not know what goes together or even those can go together, but those are pretty much all the TGF-beta or TNF-alpha inhibitors that I'm aware of on those lists.

 

[Old Baldy]

Jacob: Doctor's suggestions are good also IMHO. Turmeric is the one I forgot. Duh! (I do throw some turmeric in my herbal concoction.)

Amacha can be hard to find but hydrangea root powder is a good replacement and readily available.

The patented stuff is a chemical. No big deal. I firmly believe you wouldn't get excited about it at all. It's NOT TB4. I wish! (That too was a joke in a way also. I removed it. Really, no biggie.)

Thanks for the info. about Dr. Y's stuff, etc.

There's all those Indian herbs Vikram used to use also. I think some of them act the same way as alot of the herbs we're mentioning here. I'd have to re-read up on them though.

Jacob, I have a separate herbal concoction I mix with finasteride./dutasteride. and vary the herbs alot. Kind of my wacko concoction.

Never did buy the Blood of the Dragon yet though. Do you guys really feel that would be good stuff?

Doctor: Do a search on Marula oil and tell us what you think please.

 

[docj077]

Marula oil apparently has a fatty acid profile very similar to olive oil. It has g-tocopherol. The fruit juice from Marula apparently has one of the highest contents of vitamin C when compared to other juices. It's readily absorbed through the skin, as well, and moisturizes quite effectively.

That's about all I can find right now.

 

[michael barry]

Jacob,


I think I'd do :

apple peel extract, grape seed extract, barley extract, curcumin extract, tocopherol, arginine, beta sitosterol, and perhaps blueberry extract.

Id boil all these at 120 degrees in distilled water or actually use one of the fruits above instead of the extract for my "natural water". After it cooled off, I'd add some alcohol and propylend glycol (about a fourth of the total volume of fluid) and shake well. Apply liberally.

You'd inhibit TGF-beta, PKC, TNF-alpha, have an estrogenic-type compound (beta sis) and a compound that seems to inhibit prostate cancer (blueberries). Pomegranate extract could possibly do what the blueberries do and it also releases NO.


As far as peptides............I'd just buy a big one year bottle of folligen because its cheap.

 

[CCS]

you have to be dedicated to put an oil base on your head. Or not have much hair. That would be very messy. I'm just going to put 1-2mL of borageseed oil in my water/alcohol/pg concoctions. Yeah, I know oil is more natural than alcohol. But my hair looks good after 45 minutes of drying tops.

 

[Old Baldy]

you have to be dedicated to put an oil base on your head. Or not have much hair. That would be very messy. I'm just going to put 1-2mL of borageseed oil in my water/alcohol/pg concoctions. Yeah, I know oil is more natural than alcohol. But my hair looks good after 45 minutes of drying tops.

College: Try about 5 percent oil or polymer of your choice in 100 proof vodka and see how it feels on the back of your hand. Put in a squirt of polysorbate 20 or 80 to emulsify the oil, water and alcohol. Go from there. Maybe replace some of the PPG with more oil?

I don't think there's anything wrong with your 1-2ml of borageseed oil. I assume that's in 60ml? You're still getting benefits for the skin from all I've read. You don't need much oil if you don't like it IMHO.

Btw, in another thread a poster said GSE is water soluble. He's correct.

Waseda, a veteran member who doesn't post any longer, said many Japanese men add equal amounts of red wine as a "mother" starter for the GSE. Waseda said it's very important, I really don't know though.

 

[Jacob]

I do not know if all this can go together, but if I had the money to put something together, I'd do the following:

Grape Seed Oil Base
Amacha
Grape Seed
Apple Peel
Green Tea
Turmeric

Plus whatever is recommended for absorption, etc.


I do not know what goes together or even those can go together, but those are pretty much all the TGF-beta or TNF-alpha inhibitors that I'm aware of on those lists.

Is there anything NOT on their list you'd be interested in? Sometimes it takes some hair-pulling(sorry)..but you can usually get what you want put in a topical from them.

 

[Jacob]

Never did buy the Blood of the Dragon yet though. Do you guys really feel that would be good stuff?

I like it because of it's high/and even unique procyanidin content.

Studies have shown that procyanidins are the major constituents of Sangre de Drago (~90% of dried weight),several of which have been characterized as novel proanthocyanidins compounds.

That was taken from here: http://www.sangrededrago.net/about.html ..here's some more:

The "blood" tapped from the trunk and branches has a broad spectrum of uses, most of which are corroborated independently from tribe to tribe. It is applied externally to cuts to stop bleeding and accelerate healing, to disinfect wounds and skin infections, while forming a protective, flexible 'liquid bandage' when dried. It is also used as a mouthwash for bleeding and ulcerations of the gums, tooth infections and to protect the teeth from cavities. A swab of cotton soaked in Sangre de Drago is placed in a painful cavity to kill the pain and disinfect it. Natives use it quite often to treat diarrhea, gastritis, and ulcers.

Studies have shown that procyanidins are the major constituents of Sangre de Drago (~90% of dried weight),several of which have been characterized as novel proanthocyanidins compounds. To date, four U.S. patents have been filed on Sangre de Drado sap, two for wound healing and two describing on the antiviral activity of a proanthocyanidin polymer chemical extracted from the resin and bark of the tree, for use in treating animals and humans infected with respiratory syncytial virus, influenza A, B and C, and Herpes simplex virus. The latest patent continued to document the antiviral properties, uses, and clinical testing and results of the extract from Sangre de Grado resin and bark against numerous viruses.

Scientists have since found that as a little as a single drop of Sangre de Drago can diminish pain resulting from insect bites and stings, lacerations, burns, and plant reactions for up to six hours. The investigators noted that the sap acts as an analgesic agent by stopping the activation and stimulation of sensory nerve fibers that send pain signals to the brain. These scientist pointed out that it also inhibits the inflammatory response of tissue to chemicals released by these same nerves, and that it does so when applied either externally on the skin or when mixed with water and swallowed to treat gastrointestinal problems.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob,


I think I'd do :

apple peel extract, grape seed extract, barley extract, curcumin extract, tocopherol, arginine, beta sitosterol, and perhaps blueberry extract.

Id boil all these at 120 degrees in distilled water or actually use one of the fruits above instead of the extract for my "natural water". After it cooled off, I'd add some alcohol and propylend glycol (about a fourth of the total volume of fluid) and shake well. Apply liberally.

You'd inhibit TGF-beta, PKC, TNF-alpha, have an estrogenic-type compound (beta sis) and a compound that seems to inhibit prostate cancer (blueberries). Pomegranate extract could possibly do what the blueberries do and it also releases NO.


As far as peptides............I'd just buy a big one year bottle of folligen because its cheap.

I don't care to make my own topicals..but thanks(to everybody else so far as well) for the suggestions. Pomegranate is in the ZormaZor I still use..and to the person who mentioned caffeine..I'm positive it's in the NanoScalp because of the coffee berry extract.

But speaking of blueberries..here's something I may try out- apply it after letting the FNS dry(instead of using Marula oil): http://www.ojonhaircare.com/OJTW001.php

The savage cacao in our Ojonâ„¢ Tawaka Ancient Tribal Rejuvenating Cream contains the anti-oxidant equivalent of 204 lbs of blueberries!

 

[Jacob]

Most likely will also be adding bilberry.

Health beneficial ingredients of Bilberry include flavonoids and glycosides(1,2) The main known group of Bilberry berry flavonoids are anthocyanidins, also called anthocyanosides or anthocyanins (5). Dried berries contain about 360 mg per 100 g of total anthocyanidins, that is 3 times higher than in Black Currant and more than 10 times higher than in red wine (2). More than a dozen of anthocianidins has been identified so far in the Bilberry berries, including delphinidin, cyanidin, petunidin, pelargonidin, peonidin, and malvidin and corresponding 3-glucosides. Other group of flavonoids found in Bilberry are flavones and flavonols. In fresh berries the total content of flavonols was determined as 41 mg/kg (1) and the level of quercetin and miricetin as 30 and 20 mg/kg respectively (3). Several iridoid glucosides were identified in the Bilberry, the major representative was monotropein (4).

Rare A-type dimers and trimers were identified as the predominant procyanidins in wild lingonberry, cranberry, bilberry, and bog whortleberry.

Other things in their list contain the pros as well..Hawthorn comes to mind. I have to stop somewhere though :freaked:

 

[docj077]

I do not know if all this can go together, but if I had the money to put something together, I'd do the following:

Grape Seed Oil Base
Amacha
Grape Seed
Apple Peel
Green Tea
Turmeric

Plus whatever is recommended for absorption, etc.


I do not know what goes together or even those can go together, but those are pretty much all the TGF-beta or TNF-alpha inhibitors that I'm aware of on those lists.

Is there anything NOT on their list you'd be interested in? Sometimes it takes some hair-pulling(sorry)..but you can usually get what you want put in a topical from them.

Bromelain would probably be the only thing I can think of right off hand. I don't even know if it's been tried or even if it's safe as a topical for hair loss (it should be, because it's used for wound debridement), but bromelain irreversibly binds to TGF-beta. Bromelain is found in pineapples.

 

[docj077]

you have to be dedicated to put an oil base on your head. Or not have much hair. That would be very messy. I'm just going to put 1-2mL of borageseed oil in my water/alcohol/pg concoctions. Yeah, I know oil is more natural than alcohol. But my hair looks good after 45 minutes of drying tops.

College: Try about 5 percent oil or polymer of your choice in 100 proof vodka and see how it feels on the back of your hand. Put in a squirt of polysorbate 20 or 80 to emulsify the oil, water and alcohol. Go from there. Maybe replace some of the PPG with more oil?

I don't think there's anything wrong with your 1-2ml of borageseed oil. I assume that's in 60ml? You're still getting benefits for the skin from all I've read. You don't need much oil if you don't like it IMHO.

Btw, in another thread a poster said GSE is water soluble. He's correct.

Waseda, a veteran member who doesn't post any longer, said many Japanese men add equal amounts of red wine as a "mother" starter for the GSE. Waseda said it's very important, I really don't know though.

Why doesn't this Waseda individual post here anymore?

 

[Old Baldy]

That's a mystery Doctor!

I've put some hawthorn in my stuff now and then Jacob. Why not?

 

[Jacob]

Well..I ended up getting these and a few other minor ingreds:

Apple peel..bilberry..dragon's blood...mustard seed oil..essential oil of rosemary..copper phospholipids..zinc oxide...idebenone...luteolin..and spin traps.

Actually smells kinda good...have to use it at night though because it doesn't match my skin color very well..and I like to apply a good dose 8)