Curious about propecia and mature hairline.

[Bryan]

Yes, my working hypothesis is that the timing issue of the pseudohermaphrodites is a critical factor: they are that way from conception to death, as opposed to a typical fellow with male pattern baldness who starts to use finasteride well into the process.

My assumption is that being 5a-reductase deficient (by either being a pseudohermaphrodite, or by starting finasteride waaaay in advance of balding) is sufficient to keep balding from ever starting in the first place, but once it begins and has advanced significantly, it may require an even more severe reduction in androgenic stimulation like castration to stop it completely.

 

[phish]

makes sense to me when you say wayyy in advance of balding how early we talkin b4 puberty say 12 after puberty say 18. reason im curious is ive started finasteride real young im 21 and don't have any sighs of balding cept slight temple recession. and im hoping that ive started it so early that i can halt my hairline and hairs from miniaturizing and thinning till im in my 30s.

 

[Bryan]

I'd hate to go way out on a limb and speculate about how early is early enough, but I do strongly suspect that the occurrence of puberty is a profoundly important milestone in that whole question.

But even though you've started the finasteride now, after puberty, I still think you'll be in pretty good shape down the road! :wink:

 

[abcdefg]

yeah it will help i guess. I just always have lingering doubts on things with propecia. The 10 percent increase in testosterone, the increase in androgen receptors it may cause, the higher estrogen, and just things like those we may not yet know about it are enough to make me hesitate about starting it. My hairloss is so minor and i have no male pattern baldness in my family i just wonder if its something else or if its male pattern baldness is it really worth treating? what if my male pattern baldness just stops by itself would it be wise spending the money on propecia the rest of my life? if something better comes out can I safely quit propecia and switch to that? i dont think anyone can answer those questions and im not sure its worth what i consider a pretty big risk.

 

[Bryan]

yeah it will help i guess. I just always have lingering doubts on things with propecia. The 10 percent increase in testosterone, the increase in androgen receptors it may cause...

I don't understand. What are your "lingering doubts" about the testosterone increase and the increase in androgen receptors?

what if my male pattern baldness just stops by itself would it be wise spending the money on propecia the rest of my life?

Are you forgetting the other very important "side-effect" of finasteride? If you start it early enough in life, it may well end up SAVING YOUR LIFE. It may well keep you from ever developing prostate cancer.

if something better comes out can I safely quit propecia and switch to that?

Something better, like what? A newer 5a-reductase inhibitor? Sure, why not?

 

[abcdefg]

Let me start over. If testosterone increases by roughly 10 percent and testosterone binds and causes hairloss albeit much weaker then isnt that still causing some hairloss? why the discrepancy between the hermaphrodites being unaffected by normal testosterone yet tests have shown testosterone does cause male pattern baldness?
One more question if we inhibit 5-ar 2 and the testosterone increases as we know it does, then doesnt it stand to reason that the 5-ar 1 enzyme will convert more testosterone into dht? It seems like thats what would happen and we know type 1 is found along with type 2 right?
Its questions like these that make me nervous. Maybe its my own stupidity on the subject i would not doubt it, but some of this is very hard to answer.

By something better coming out Im talking say ascj-9 which degrades receptor sites or something like that. Can we safely drop propecia and switch to ascj-9 or whatever new treatment without losing our hair propecia saved for us?

Ive been seriously considering propecia lately. My head is very itchy and I cant help but think dht is causing this inflammation as others report finasteride helping with the itch that seems to be very common. Im just scared to be hasty we could find out tomorrow dht is a hell of a lot more important then we think today and thats hard to argue. Science is still learning about hormones and what they do.

 

[Pondle]

We suspect that other androgens besides DHT are involved in male pattern baldness, although DHT clearly plays the major role. Various posters have hypothesised that early exposure to DHT (i.e. pre-treatment) causes some form of follicle androgen sensitivity 'cascade' which cannot be completely stopped even when we use 5AR inhibitors. The pseudohermaphrodites have never been exposed to high levels of DHT and so never develop this sensitivity. But this is all conjecture.

ASCJ-9 could potentially be a great product if it is ever commercialised, but I think that it is still in phase II trials and thus at least 5 years or so away. And I haven't seen ANY data on its results. Maybe it just won't work?!

I don't see why DHT could be so important given that no clinical abnormalities (apart from genital malformation, which occurs in early life) have apparently been observed in the pseudohermaphrodites with 5AR2 deficiency. Also bear in mind that women have MUCH less DHT and 5AR than men and there seem to be no associated clinical 'penalties'.

 

[Bryan]

Let me start over. If testosterone increases by roughly 10 percent and testosterone binds and causes hairloss albeit much weaker then isnt that still causing some hairloss?

But you're getting a SHARP decrease in a potent male pattern baldness-producing androgen (DHT), and the price you're having to pay for it is a mild increase in a considerably less-potent one (testosterone). That's a giant step in the right direction, so what are you so nervous about?

why the discrepancy between the hermaphrodites being unaffected by normal testosterone yet tests have shown testosterone does cause male pattern baldness?

Actually, the hermaphrodites are unaffected by slightly elevated testosterone levels, which they do have (similar to finasteride users).

Testosterone may well contribute to male pattern baldness a little, but it's not the powerful influence that DHT is.

One more question if we inhibit 5-ar 2 and the testosterone increases as we know it does, then doesnt it stand to reason that the 5-ar 1 enzyme will convert more testosterone into dht?

Yeah, it might do that slightly. I don't see that as anything to lose any sleep over.

It seems like thats what would happen and we know type 1 is found along with type 2 right?

The type 2 enzyme is much more closely associated with balding than the type 1 enzyme. I wouldn't worry about that at all.

Its questions like these that make me nervous.

Those specific issues you mentioned don't worry me in the least.

 

[abcdefg]

Fair enough bryan I respect your opinion along with docj because you two guys actually know what your talking about.
I really am starting to think dht is responsible for hairloss and that the androgen theory might really be right. Most men with very little body hair and facial hair tend to have the least hairloss in most cases. It does seem like that is true just from people I see.
One last question do the hermaphrodites keep a teenage hairline and all of their hair even into old age like 50-60? Most women at 60 have very single hair they were born with so the proof androgens play a role is pretty apparent, and I cant really argue that one.

 

[Bryan]

One last question do the hermaphrodites keep a teenage hairline and all of their hair even into old age like 50-60?

I'm pretty sure they do.

 

[abcdefg]

Why do they keep all there hair but not us? Do these hermaphrodites have any common genes or dna sequences or something else along with the 5 ar2 deficiency?

 

[Bryan]

As I've said many times, I think it's the timing issue. An ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure.

 

[abcdefg]

Yes you have said that many times before. My main fear is im losing hair pretty slowly by coincidence Ive noticed much darker and more facial hair. Is there a chance the slight increase in testosterone could be be enough if my dht is already kind of low to increase my hairloss and not slow it. Most men on propecia are missing lots of hair so reducing the most potent dht helps much more then the T rise. For a man with all his hair or most of it wouldnt the testosterone rising cause more harm then the good of lowering DHT?
Thats my main fear along with a massive shed or boobs granted these are rare but still.
I know no one can guarantee anything thats what makes me nervous.

 

[phish]

the slight rise in test is nothing compared to the huge drop in dht wich is the main culprit in hair loss. there is no guarantee any drug will work, but for the most part propecia is well tolerated short term and long term and if you really are concerned about your hair loss its the best option out there and the simplest one.

 

[abcdefg]

true. Still when you have little family history and dont touch any drugs its a little scary to know your hormones are all being changed from the normal.

 

[Bryan]

For a man with all his hair or most of it wouldnt the testosterone rising cause more harm then the good of lowering DHT?

Every molecule of testosterone that you keep from turning into a molecule of DHT is a step in the right direction for your hair. I don't know why some people are determined to believe the "testosterone causes hairloss" theory, to the point of being afraid to suppress DHT.

 

[Bryan]

true. Still when you have little family history and dont touch any drugs its a little scary to know your hormones are all being changed from the normal.

Well, if you're a little skittish about that, I don't see anything wrong with waiting a while until you know for sure that you're experiencing male pattern baldness, and THEN starting finasteride.

 

[abcdefg]

Yeah I guess im in wait and see what happens mode. I think its just a mature hairline very slowly but i have lost some hair in the crown and my head is real itchy. I dont know whats going on anymore if its seb derm like the derms say or what. People that are addicted to pulling there hair out does there hair grow back? I sometimes did that i stopped but i only ever did it because my head was so freakin itchy its a relief kinda like scratching poison ivy.

Anyways i guess im done playing million questions bryan, but thanks for all your answers. I always respect the opinion of docj and bryan because they are some of the few people that work hard at understanding all the science of male pattern baldness that we know so far today.

 

[CCS]

im prety bored and just wondering if you were to give a 18 year old male propecia right before his hairline ever matured or miniaturized if he would ever develop a receding hairline that we all get in the temples. it would be interesting to see because if the person still developed a mature hairline maybe temple hairs recede from other factors then dht such as testerone.

I doubt it is that powerful. But it may maintain it for some people. Remember: for 1/3 of men, propecia won't even maintain the hair on top. It just slows down the loss.

 

[abcdefg]

Bryan believes its an issue of timing, and most men are into some advanced stages are male pattern baldness before they even start propecia. We know propecia doesnt regrow but it might maintain better the earlier you start.