Darolutamide (odm-201), A Better Topical Than Enzalutamide?

[IdealForehead]

Not that bad, could live with it. I am more concerned about why and what it does to my healthy body.

I'm sorry you're having such a weird reaction. And I agree that's the primary problem with your reaction: What does it mean? Who knows.

My side effects (dryness, reduced appetite) are typical for androgen deprivation and to be expected. Androgens stimulate sweat/sebaceous glands, and androgens stimulate hunger. When I was experimenting with steroid (test-e) injections to contrast, I was hungry all the time. So my daro side effects don't worry or bother me except as an indicator I need to reduce systemic absorption by changing the vehicle and/or reducing the dose.

Tingling is a funnier one. I have been thinking about it since your post and I can't think of a way to reasonably explain it.

As I see it, either way, you have a few options. First, before anything else, I would answer the question you asked first (whether it is from DMSO) by applying 2 mL of pure vehicle to your scalp. If you are lucky, you will still get the tingling, and you can blame it on a peculiar sensitivity to DMSO. Then you can cut out DMSO (see my next post - it looks very possible and easy to do!) and continue use without this issue. If you don't get the tingling from the vehicle alone, then it's unfortunately likely the daro, and again, you have a few options to consider:

1) Stop daro altogether and never use it again.
2) Stop daro temporarily and then retry at a lower dose and/or without DMSO to reduce systemic absorption.
3) Reduce or continue your dose with/without DMSO, and continue straight onward to see if it worsens or resolves.

Unfortunately since we don't know why the tingling is happening I don't know what is the best option. Obviously the safest is #1 but that may not be ideal for you. To consider a worst case scenario, I have googled things like "Flutamide neurotoxicity" since that can also apparently rarely cause tingling and to see if an antiandrogen can be possibly damage the nervous system but have found nothing. So I can't say I can find any evidence that this is serious or not serious. I really don't know.

You can review the published safety study here. I don't think there was any mention of tingling in it.

From one guinea pig to another I wish I could advise you better, but this is the problem with being a guinea pig. We're in the unknown and don't have many resources to fall back on. Good luck.

 

[IdealForehead]

A couple updates!

Eliminating DMSO
Hahahaha wow I just saw @whatevr 's post above on ethanol solubility as I was about to post this. Although I did not have those ethanol stats (thanks for posting), you had the same thought as me: "Why do we even need DMSO for such a tiny bit of daro to dissolve?" The answer? It seems we don't.

I spent last night trying to see if I could get an adequate concentration of daro to dissolve purely in Kirkland minoxidil (PG, ethanol, water) and it went very smoothly. I used 25 mg in 10 mL (0.25%) which is the highest practical concentration I think I could ever need.

I also have to thank @JLF for his suggestion to microwave it. Microwaving it for 5-6 seconds at a time gets it up to a lukewarm temperature that shouldn't damage the daro but definitely helps it dissolve much more rapidly. Within 20-30 minutes of stirring and a few rounds of microwaving I had a crystal clear solution.

I left it overnight to see if any crystals would come out and this morning it still looks perfectly beautifully clear to my eyes. There is a tiny barely perceptible bit of dots of translucent residue floating on top of the solution. You can barely see it in the right light. This is almost certainly impurity and residual solvent from the manufacturing process that is not soluble in the Kirkland (but probably would be soluble in DMSO). If anything, this is an advantage, as if impurities are not soluble in the solvent (PG/ethanol/water) it may also reduce the amount of impurities we are absorbing into our bodies. I think it is definitely not daro, as daro forms white crystals which sink and this is not that.

Side Effects
I thought I would repost again the common side effect chart from the side effect study here for reference since we have been discussing side effects:

This does not include infertility or sexual dysfunction, as I believe these were probably assumed to be pre-existing conditions in pretty much all their patient population. So those risks are unknown.

But frankly after using darolutamide I am blown away that these guys could get away with 600 mg twice a day and have so few side effects at all. 10 mg twice a day to my SKIN was intolerable for me. Fortunately on 6 mg a day I am feeling better and better day by day, and my regrowth is continuing.

It makes me wonder if we as young otherwise generally healthy men may be more sensitive to androgen deprivation than the types of sick, old men who are in prostate cancer research. And therefore perhaps we should assume that we will have the potential for much higher side effects even at much lower doses. Just a cautionary note perhaps.

Dose Titration
I also want to mention for reference that it takes 4-5 half lives for you to reach steady state on a dose of any given treatment. We can perhaps roughly assume daro has a systemic half life of maybe ~20 hours (I don't have the math skill to work out what it is exactly, as it is a two stage degradation process, first 15.8 hours, then 10 hours, and both stages are equally biologically active).

If so, then we can presume it will take maybe 4-5 days before any dose change will "equilibriate" in your system.

Since this type of experimentation involves having to adjust the doses almost at random based on guesswork and how the body "feels", I think it is fair to make adjustments no more often than every 5-7 days to be sure of any observations.

It's been 4 days since I reduced from 10 mg twice daily to 6.25 mg per day (5 mg in evening, 1.25 mg in morning) and I continue to feel better and better. My eyes feel pretty normal. My skin also feels mostly back to normal.

My next step will be to cut out the DMSO today but continue at this dose to see if it "cleans up" even further. I think it may be reasonable to expect that, at least for me, the useful topical dose range will end up being somewhere between 1 mg and 10 mg a day. Perhaps between 1-5 mg in the end.

 

[DavidsDome]

knowing that Daro doesn't need DMSO is freaking fantastic
and the molecular mass is also less than Enza, so penetration should be totally fine with ethanol
sounds lovely

 

[inmyhead]

How many of you guys are trying it? Also, does anyone know difference between ethanol and isopropyl alcohol?

 

[IdealForehead]

How many of you guys are trying it? Also, does anyone know difference between ethanol and isopropyl alcohol?

Isopropyl alcohol is rubbing alcohol. You can't use that on your skin to replace ethanol. It's toxic. If you can't get 94%+ ethanol locally and are looking to mix a topical of some kind, you can use premixed Minoxidil solutions as a base. Most of us can benefit from minoxidil anway.

If you can't use minoxidil, you can probably contact a local compounding pharmacy (as they mix custom formulations of medications routinely) and ask if they could make you a mixture of whatever percent ethanol, propylene glycol, and water you want in whatever volume you want.

You might have to call a couple places or just go in person to try to convince them but they should be able to do it for you.

 

[ElTioLaBota]

This sh*t looks promising af!

 

[Sanchez1234]

I'm sorry you're having such a weird reaction. And I agree that's the primary problem with your reaction: What does it mean? Who knows.

My side effects (dryness, reduced appetite) are typical for androgen deprivation and to be expected. Androgens stimulate sweat/sebaceous glands, and androgens stimulate hunger. When I was experimenting with steroid (test-e) injections to contrast, I was hungry all the time. So my daro side effects don't worry or bother me except as an indicator I need to reduce systemic absorption by changing the vehicle and/or reducing the dose.

Tingling is a funnier one. I have been thinking about it since your post and I can't think of a way to reasonably explain it.

As I see it, either way, you have a few options. First, before anything else, I would answer the question you asked first (whether it is from DMSO) by applying 2 mL of pure vehicle to your scalp. If you are lucky, you will still get the tingling, and you can blame it on a peculiar sensitivity to DMSO. Then you can cut out DMSO (see my next post - it looks very possible and easy to do!) and continue use without this issue. If you don't get the tingling from the vehicle alone, then it's unfortunately likely the daro, and again, you have a few options to consider:

1) Stop daro altogether and never use it again.
2) Stop daro temporarily and then retry at a lower dose and/or without DMSO to reduce systemic absorption.
3) Reduce or continue your dose with/without DMSO, and continue straight onward to see if it worsens or resolves.

Unfortunately since we don't know why the tingling is happening I don't know what is the best option. Obviously the safest is #1 but that may not be ideal for you. To consider a worst case scenario, I have googled things like "Flutamide neurotoxicity" since that can also apparently rarely cause tingling and to see if an antiandrogen can be possibly damage the nervous system but have found nothing. So I can't say I can find any evidence that this is serious or not serious. I really don't know.

You can review the published safety study here. I don't think there was any mention of tingling in it.

From one guinea pig to another I wish I could advise you better, but this is the problem with being a guinea pig. We're in the unknown and don't have many resources to fall back on. Good luck.

You sir are amazing. Thanks for all the help and insights. I am going for option 2 and stop using daro for a few days. Then i will apply 1ml of 100%dsmo on my head. If i dont get the tingling feeling i will try 0.1% in kirkland everyother day and hopefully i can work my way up.

 

[Sanchez1234]

How many of you guys are trying it? Also, does anyone know difference between ethanol and isopropyl alcohol?

Just the two of us so far. I am getting of it a few days.

 

[CuckedByChad]

In on history being written. This is pretty fascinating stuff. There's literally only a handful of people using this substance for androgenic alopecia right now and these people are you.

If this turns out to be successful (which on paper it looks like it should) for maintaining and even reversing hair loss, I'm sold and might guinea pig myself aswell. Price doesn't even seem that bad either since you can get away with very low dosages and even every other day applications.

Also no offense to @IdealForehead but you seem very high inhibition and paranoid from some of your earlier posts, specifically about you not wanting anyone else to try this. Are you afraid of people f*****g themselves up and consequently having the FBI knock on your door because of this thread? I wouldn't worry about it to be honest. You made it perfectly clear that this stuff is no joke, and if people decide to use this substance so be it, thats obviously not your responsibility and completely out of your hands.

 

[IdealForehead]

In on history being written. This is pretty fascinating stuff. There's literally only a handful of people using this substance for androgenic alopecia right now and these people are you.

If this turns out to be successful (which on paper it looks like it should) for maintaining and even reversing hair loss, I'm sold and might guinea pig myself aswell. Price doesn't even seem that bad either since you can get away with very low dosages and even every other day applications.

Also no offense to @IdealForehead but you seem very high inhibition and paranoid from some of your earlier posts, specifically about you not wanting anyone else to try this. Are you afraid of people f*****g themselves up and consequently having the FBI knock on your door because of this thread? I wouldn't worry about it to be honest. You made it perfectly clear that this stuff is no joke, and if people decide to use this substance so be it, thats obviously not your responsibility and completely out of your hands.

Thanks cucked. You're absolutely correct - I worry a lot. But it's more an ethical thing for me. Obviously like I've said if you buy experimental chemicals from China and put them on your head, that's your risk. But I worry more about especially young guys using this stuff without thinking about it and 5-10 years later trying to have kids and finding out they're infertile. Or developing penile atrophy. Or developing diabetes. Or osteoporosis.

I guess all medications have risks. Even finasteride/dutasteride can reduce fertility. And those are "approved" for hair loss. So it's not like the risks aren't there for other things. But in addition to those, there's the potentially major risk I've mentioned many times about contamination around the house, which could cause developmental risks to pregnant wives, or small children.

I just don't want people f*****g up their lives or those of their families over experimental hair treatments. I've come to the conclusion that I would rather discourage people from using it than encourage them. Then if we find out in 5 years that darolutamide causes pancreatic cancer or something ridiculous like that, I won't have it on my conscience when I read the news that I encouraged anyone to use this stuff.

Those that really want to experiment (like me) will experiment. I am providing all the information I can on my experiment for future reference. But there are a lot of casual users on this site that will never read the full thread or think thoroughly about what they may or may not be subjecting themselves to. And those are the ones I really think especially should just stick to finasteride/dutasteride/RU.

I don't know what the future will hold for this treatment. I think it will become a popular "underground" treatment like RU58841, but much, much stronger. I doubt it will become mainstream due to transference risks. I'm happy to contribute to the knowledge on it in any way I can. I hope there's some published hair research at some stage.

People can of course do what they want with any information. But no, I really don't want to encourage people to use it, because I don't know what the f*** will happen to them long term if they do, and I don't want that weight or worry on my conscience. I can live with f*****g up my own life, but I don't want to contribute to f*****g up anyone else's.

Thanks for your perspective and I'm glad you find it all interesting and engaging. I certainly do. This has been really fun for me. And great results so far.

 

[Sanchez1234]

Some updates from me:

- Put 1ml of dmso on my head. It burned like crazy on my skin but no tingling.

- What i do mind is that i am feeling my armpits. I have developed gyno on 0.25mg finas couple of years ago after 2 weeks. When i tried duta (some other story) i developed gyno again after 4 months. I used tamoxifen and even one duta i didnt feel my armpits because of it. I am still on tamoxifen to reduce the gyno but on daro i feel my armpits again..really powerfull stuff.

On 200mg ru i had no sides. So i have to minimise dose plus reduce systematic effects. I still have some lipogaine5% so i am going to mix that with daro (0.1%).

 

[SpaceInvader]

I mixed 14 mg in 6 mL 75.5% Ethanol in a clear glass bottle. At first, there were chunks, but fully dissolved when I submerged the bottle in a pan of hot water. Then added 2 mL Propylene Glycol.

I applied about 48 mg of MDV, a total of 3 mL, and will be doing this next as soon as it fully soaks in. I'm using both. I'll let you know how it is.

 

[inmyhead]

Some updates from me:

- Put 1ml of dmso on my head. It burned like crazy on my skin but no tingling.

- What i do mind is that i am feeling my armpits. I have developed gyno on 0.25mg finas couple of years ago after 2 weeks. When i tried duta (some other story) i developed gyno again after 4 months. I used tamoxifen and even one duta i didnt feel my armpits because of it. I am still on tamoxifen to reduce the gyno but on daro i feel my armpits again..really powerfull stuff.

On 200mg ru i had no sides. So i have to minimise dose plus reduce systematic effects. I still have some lipogaine5% so i am going to mix that with daro (0.1%).

What do you mean you are feeling your armpits? And what armpits have to do with gyno? ( btw, did you gyno went away after stopping finasteride? )

 

[Jonnyyy]

Dang so everybody is still getting sides?

 

[Bklyn_23]

Isopropyl alcohol is rubbing alcohol. You can't use that on your skin to replace ethanol. It's toxic.

Wait a second. Unrelated to this topic, but isopropyl alcohol is toxic when applied topically? if so, what concentrations/frequencies are we talking about here? I know it can dry out the skin if used too much, but never heard about toxicity.

 

[SpaceInvader]

#3

I just applied 1 mL, 1.75 mg with a syringe. This batch is 14 mg in 6 mL Ethanol, 2 mL PG.

 

[HairCook]

Any testers willing to keep a picture diary here?

 

[Recon_s]

Good point users need to throw up a baseline pic before they can start claiming success on this new drug

 

[Jonnyyy]

I'll make an entire thread once I start it.

 

[SpaceInvader]

I applied another 1 mL.

I still don't feel anything, no sides, no tingling.

3.5 mg in total so far.