Dermarolling/wounding What Method Do You Use And Why

[JohnOKelly]

Hello there, so I've ordered a dermaroller, thought I'd give it a shot... But after reading a few threads I'm a little confused as to why some people say you should bleed vs you should only do it until your scalp is red. What is the difference here? What method is supposed to give the best results... if any?
I'd appreciate any input from anybody using dermarollers, I'd like to know what you do, how you do it etc.

Thank you!

 

[JohnOKelly]

Nobody...? I thought there were a few here who Dermaroll/wound....?

 

[Dazz_nz]

I suppose it depends on what you are trying to achieve - I use 1.5mm with Lithium Chloride to try stimulate follicle neogenesis but I only do my temples. Some people use .5mm just for penetration enhancement of topical products. If you are using a deeper depth then you cant do it as often as it takes longer to heal. I bleed everytime at 1.5mm and the redness remains for about 2-3 days afterwards, I do it once a week which some would say is too often, but I dont seem to have a problem with the healing. Some people do it everyday at a lesser depth prior to minoxidil application.

 

[JohnOKelly]

I have ordered a 1.5mm roller, it's not arrived yet, but my plan was to try it once a week like yourself and also only do the temples. I'm a little concerned about the redness lasting 2-3 days but I suppose I won't know how red I get until I try. Can I ask why do you use Lithium Chloride?
Is there a risk of scarring when trying this?

 

[Dazz_nz]

I don't have any scaring from it. The skin is better where I do use it infact. Microneedling/Dermarolling is used in beauty therapy on the face aswell as it stimulates collagen production. I originally started using Lithium after reading Swiss Temples blog and after reading a few studies. While some people dismiss his routine as useless, I think some of his research has merit to it. I use a microneedling pen though, and I dont drag it across the skin, I do like a dabbing motion. Dermarolling creates bigger holes due to the rolling motion... Like in this image, left if rolling, right is using stamping method. You have less likely chance of track marks and scaring if you use a microneedling device.

 

[Balding curse]

I don't have any scaring from it. The skin is better where I do use it infact. Microneedling/Dermarolling is used in beauty therapy on the face aswell as it stimulates collagen production. I originally started using Lithium after reading Swiss Temples blog and after reading a few studies. While some people dismiss his routine as useless, I think some of his research has merit to it. I use a microneedling pen though, and I dont drag it across the skin, I do like a dabbing motion. Dermarolling creates bigger holes due to the rolling motion... Like in this image, left if rolling, right is using stamping method. You have less likely chance of track marks and scaring if you use a microneedling device.
View attachment 58022

have you notice any regrowth on the temples?

 

[JohnOKelly]

Thank you for that information. I have the roller ordered so will give that a try first. I don't think simply increasing minoxidil absorption will do that much for me as I have been using it for over a decade now, so I don't think I will go the smaller needle on a daily basis route.
I will admit I have not done very much research into this at all.. It's just something I came across when I returned to this site after dipping a little below baseline and have been a little confused by the different methods that people use that I have read about on here.

 

[Dazz_nz]

have you notice any regrowth on the temples?

Yip I have but its taken quite a while. Its nothing substantial yet but its definately working. I will do a post on my whole routine and success in future but I dont want to do it until I have really solid results.

 

[Dazz_nz]

Thank you for that information. I have the roller ordered so will give that a try first. I don't think simply increasing minoxidil absorption will do that much for me as I have been using it for over a decade now, so I don't think I will go the smaller needle on a daily basis route.
I will admit I have not done very much research into this at all.. It's just something I came across when I returned to this site after dipping a little below baseline and have been a little confused by the different methods that people use that I have read about on here.

You can only try i suppose! Just a side note, it does hurt at 1.5mm. I have to use numbing cream and even then I still feel 'discomfort' as ill put it. But nowhere near as bad as without it. I do 3 passes over the areas. Its after the 1st pass that it hurts most.
If you want a cheap electic stamp I brought mine from DHgate. If you get one though I suggest getting the cordless model as the cord is a pain in the ***.
Dr Pen:
http://www.dhgate.com/product/dr-pe...ystem/252451335.html#s1-1-1b;searl|3832843655

Needle replacements:
http://www.dhgate.com/product/50pcs...recinfo=8,102,5#cppd-5-5|null:102:r1080920136

Numbing cream (cheapest way I could buy it) - I was sceptical about buying this from the site, but I can confirm its 100% legit.
http://www.dhgate.com/product/tatoo...lizer/400086797.html#s1-0-1b;searl|0410359956

Customs in New Zealand are very strict, the numbing cream was seized and I had to get a doctor note to get it off them

Also beware of using Minoxidil on the day of needling at that depth. I use earlier in the day and then dont use it til the next night after needling. Obviously there is more chance of systematic absorbtion when you do it at 1.5mm so I dont risk it.

 

[JohnOKelly]

Thanks for that information. I will see how it feels and if I need the numbing cream I will go for that. Customs in Ireland can be fairly strict too and that's why I have to get everything legit from my Doctor. My rogaine liquid was even seized a couple of times... So I just have to buy it here which is far more expensive unfortunately.

 

[Rocknroutlaw]

I don't have any scaring from it. The skin is better where I do use it infact. Microneedling/Dermarolling is used in beauty therapy on the face aswell as it stimulates collagen production. I originally started using Lithium after reading Swiss Temples blog and after reading a few studies. While some people dismiss his routine as useless, I think some of his research has merit to it. I use a microneedling pen though, and I dont drag it across the skin, I do like a dabbing motion. Dermarolling creates bigger holes due to the rolling motion... Like in this image, left if rolling, right is using stamping method. You have less likely chance of track marks and scaring if you use a microneedling device.
View attachment 58022

This is a good point. I use dermastamp for the reason that I have long hair, and I do feel that recovery is rather rapid on the scalp, most likely because of the reason you mentioned.
I use 1mm length; it does cause light bleeding. I do a combination of stamping with 1mm (no numbing cream needed) to cause light bleeding once a week, and lightly tapping the scalp with it every 2nd-3rd day when the scalp doesn't appear red or wounded. I have no idea if this is the best way, but as mentioned above it is unknown whether it is the wounding or simply increasing blood flow that assists hair growth, I'm combining the two such that my scalp gets some needling regularly enough, and wounded once a week.
At this stage I'm still a little hesitant about moving onto 1.5mm.

 

[JohnOKelly]

This is a good point. I use dermastamp for the reason that I have long hair, and I do feel that recovery is rather rapid on the scalp, most likely because of the reason you mentioned.
I use 1mm length; it does cause light bleeding. I do a combination of stamping with 1mm (no numbing cream needed) to cause light bleeding once a week, and lightly tapping the scalp with it every 2nd-3rd day when the scalp doesn't appear red or wounded. I have no idea if this is the best way, but as mentioned above it is unknown whether it is the wounding or simply increasing blood flow that assists hair growth, I'm combining the two such that my scalp gets some needling regularly enough, and wounded once a week.
At this stage I'm still a little hesitant about moving onto 1.5mm.

Can I ask why you are hesitant to move to 1.5mm? As it has been mentioned before, it's used as a beauty treatment so scarring should not be an issue, so is it for other reasons? Have you seen any improvements with the method you use?

 

[Rocknroutlaw]

Can I ask why you are hesitant to move to 1.5mm? As it has been mentioned before, it's used as a beauty treatment so scarring should not be an issue, so is it for other reasons? Have you seen any improvements with the method you use?

My logic is possibly flawed but here is my reasoning:
-As it seems inconclusive whether it is wounding at depth or simply increased blood flow in the scalp which promotes hair growth, I felt that I should approach with caution.I started with 0.5mm, and slowly worked my way up to now 1.0mm (which I also use on my face).
-With normal stamping strength, 1.0mm already causes very mild bleeding. Would penetrating deeper for more wounding be more beneficial?
-I do 1.0mm wounding weekly. It recovers fast enough to allow lighter stamping with the same length throughout the week. I wonder if increasing to 1.5mm would still allow this kind of frequency.
-In a funny way, I feel slightly 'addicted' to this procedure as I got used to the pain. I seem to keep giving myself more..I'm a little afraid of over-usage as a result if I moved onto 1.5mm and do something which is harmful instead.

You made a valid point though. I guess part of the fear is micro-scarring which would end up with more hair loss...if scarring is not an issue with 1.5mm perhaps I should consider it.
I'm grateful of the findings of their study based on 1.5mm wounding. If only they had a cohort of randomized samples with more shallow depths...

 

[mdmnota]

Is there anyone that has seen noticeable regrowth from woundind without minoxidil?

 

[hairblues]

My logic is possibly flawed but here is my reasoning:
-As it seems inconclusive whether it is wounding at depth or simply increased blood flow in the scalp which promotes hair growth, I felt that I should approach with caution.I started with 0.5mm, and slowly worked my way up to now 1.0mm (which I also use on my face).
-With normal stamping strength, 1.0mm already causes very mild bleeding. Would penetrating deeper for more wounding be more beneficial?
-I do 1.0mm wounding weekly. It recovers fast enough to allow lighter stamping with the same length throughout the week. I wonder if increasing to 1.5mm would still allow this kind of frequency.
-In a funny way, I feel slightly 'addicted' to this procedure as I got used to the pain. I seem to keep giving myself more..I'm a little afraid of over-usage as a result if I moved onto 1.5mm and do something which is harmful instead.

You made a valid point though. I guess part of the fear is micro-scarring which would end up with more hair loss...if scarring is not an issue with 1.5mm perhaps I should consider it.
I'm grateful of the findings of their study based on 1.5mm wounding. If only they had a cohort of randomized samples with more shallow depths...

Is there anyone that has seen noticeable regrowth from woundind without minoxidil?

The Indian study was for 12 weeks Minoxidil and 1x a week derma rolling with 1.5 NOT to really bleeding but just to irritated, redden the skin. Maybe light skin break but not to 'bleeding'. If that is happening the person may be doing it too harsh or vigerous. DOnt keep going over and over the area. That is not what they did in study.

that 1x a week you skip any topical.

just google Indian study and derma rolling.

this and costarellis (not sure its a study or his theory) of wounding seem to have been mixed together.

I would be cautious to really 'bleed' you can easily get an infection.

You need to sterilize the derma roller and find a way to make sure head is clean during.

 

[Rocknroutlaw]

I hear you. When I say 'bleeding', I mean a slight hint of blood coming above skin surface...nothing like a cut. It seems to disappear very quickly. I shall have a more detail look of this study.
I would be surprised if by using 1.5mm it did not cause any bleeding. I guess it's difficult to gauge the level of skin breakage which is enough to promote hair growth, but I would think even the lightest tapping with your fingers would promote blood flow to the area anyway, so dermarolling at any level should be advantageous. It's a matter of establishing the optimal level.

 

[Dazz_nz]

I hear you. When I say 'bleeding', I mean a slight hint of blood coming above skin surface...nothing like a cut. It seems to disappear very quickly. I shall have a more detail look of this study.
I would be surprised if by using 1.5mm it did not cause any bleeding. I guess it's difficult to gauge the level of skin breakage which is enough to promote hair growth, but I would think even the lightest tapping with your fingers would promote blood flow to the area anyway, so dermarolling at any level should be advantageous. It's a matter of establishing the optimal level.

When I say bleeding aswell, I mean the same thing as you do. I get a bit of blood but after wiping it then its fine.

 

[Dazz_nz]

My logic is possibly flawed but here is my reasoning:
-As it seems inconclusive whether it is wounding at depth or simply increased blood flow in the scalp which promotes hair growth, I felt that I should approach with caution.I started with 0.5mm, and slowly worked my way up to now 1.0mm (which I also use on my face).
-With normal stamping strength, 1.0mm already causes very mild bleeding. Would penetrating deeper for more wounding be more beneficial?
-I do 1.0mm wounding weekly. It recovers fast enough to allow lighter stamping with the same length throughout the week. I wonder if increasing to 1.5mm would still allow this kind of frequency.
-In a funny way, I feel slightly 'addicted' to this procedure as I got used to the pain. I seem to keep giving myself more..I'm a little afraid of over-usage as a result if I moved onto 1.5mm and do something which is harmful instead.

You made a valid point though. I guess part of the fear is micro-scarring which would end up with more hair loss...if scarring is not an issue with 1.5mm perhaps I should consider it.
I'm grateful of the findings of their study based on 1.5mm wounding. If only they had a cohort of randomized samples with more shallow depths...

Are you doing your whole face at 1mm? You should be careful doing so as there are different depth recommendations for different parts of the face. You can find some good indication charts if you google it.

 

[barfacan]

How often do you have to replace the needles? You can just sterilize them in alcohol right?

 

[Dazz_nz]

How often do you have to replace the needles? You can just sterilize them in alcohol right?

I sterilize it straight after first use then again before I use it a second time. I only use mine twice as I dont want to risk any infection. But thats just my preference. I use a pen not a roller and I have 100 replacement tips so im not too bothered about wasting them.