Dermovan Based spironolactone: How do you apply it? (bryan)

[Matgallis]

I've been using my own dermovan based spironolactone for the past couple of months. I also use aloe vera and some vitiamin E along with spironolactone and dermovan cream.

I just got done making another batch execpt this time i wanted to see how much different it was to apply without the aloe and vitiamin E. Without the aloe vera the dermovan just sticks to my hair. I can't manage to get it on my scalp very well...

Do you have very short hair bryan?

I'm debating whether the aloe vera is helping the cause or just simply interfering with the spironolactone absorbtion process... I might just switch over to a alcohol based version and call it a lifetime

 

[Whoome?]

yea mat.. i too am making my own batch. why dont you switch to the alcohol version for the diffused parts , and use the dermovan version for the temples and other easily accessible areas?

 

[Bryan]

Yeah, it's always gonna be more difficult to apply creams to hairy areas. About all you can do is part your hair in several locations and work the cream in as best you can.

BTW, Matgallis, I'm curious about something: why do you put vitamin E in your mix?

Bryan

 

[Yardbird]

If it's difficult to put cream on in areas with some hair, then what are these creams designed for? Application to slick bald areas? Are they really going to do any good there?

As you know, I'm still thinking of trying out spironolactone, but I'm concerned about the 2x application and the smell. Does the homemade version smell better or worse?

 

[Bryan]

If it's difficult to put cream on in areas with some hair, then what are these creams designed for? Application to slick bald areas?

No, it's designed for whatever areas you think NEED it. It's not impossible to apply it to hairy areas, just more difficult! :wink:

As you know, I'm still thinking of trying out spironolactone, but I'm concerned about the 2x application and the smell. Does the homemade version smell better or worse?

The generic tabs that I use (Spirotone) are loaded-up with a nice minty aroma. I've never had a problem with using them in my creams or solutions.

Bryan

 

[Matgallis]

BTW, Matgallis, I'm curious about something: why do you put vitamin E in your mix?

Vitamin E is an antioxidant and fights free radicals that lead to aging. It also improves immune function.

For me I use it to keep my scalp healthy. It is in every lotion i've found on the market.

I figure it it helps fight free radicals (which causes aging) it might help follicals that are under attack from the immune system to repair themselves and keep imflation under check.

Read an article on aging a few days ago and it said vitamin E and C help fight free radicals but scientist can't find a huge impact on anti aging.

So far my scalp has been in great shape even with minoxidil now being applied twice daily.

What do you think about the vitamin E? Mine are all off of speculation/concept not science.

 

[Bryan]

Ok, but please tell me what your SOURCE of topical vitamin E is. Tell me what specific compound it is, and what it says on the label.

As you can probably guess, I have ulterior motives for asking this!

Bryan

 

[Matgallis]

It's made by nature's bound
(reading from the back) dl-alpha tocopheryl Acetate and d-alpha tocopherol plus d-bet and d-Gamma and d-delta tocopherols



I might be switching to a pure extract form instead, it sure is hard and time consuming squeezing that goo out of the pills.

 

[Bryan]

I figured that's what you were doing, just squeezing it out of oral capsules. Just wanted to be sure about that.

I suggest that you take those things orally, and not apply them topically; the problem with vitamin E esters is that they aren't REALLY vitamin E until they are cleaved during digestion. A study has shown that E esters that are applied topically to the skin undergo pretty minimal conversion into the active vitamin.

Bryan

 

[Matgallis]

Damn. hmm what if I used a pure extract form? I've found them in grocery stores..

 

[Bryan]

Once again, it depends on whether or not it's in esterified form (like the acetate or succinate forms). I believe there are some pure, un-esterified forms available on the market, but keep in mind that there's a very good REASON why almost all vitamin E supplements are either acetates or succinates: they are much more STABLE than a pure, un-esterified tocopherol. They last much longer in storage, and are much less susceptible to oxidation. (Yes, pure vitamin E itself is susceptible to oxidation, even though it is itself an antioxidant! It's not a particularly potent one...)

Bryan

 

[Whoome?]

if you really wanna add an anti oxident. Grape seed extract is a more powerful source. Although i do not know how it will react topically.

 

[Bryan]

Hell, if you really just want a kick-*** antioxidant in your scalp, why not experiment with topical BHT?? That stuff is dirt-cheap, very stable, very powerful and potent, and is HIGHLY hydrophobic, so I would imagine it would penetrate the stratum corneum pretty well. I'd mix it into a strong ethanol solution (maybe with a little propylene glycol) and slap that onto my scalp!

Bryan

 

[Whoome?]

isn't bht the preservative thats used in dog food?

 

[Bryan]

It's used in a great many things: foods of all kinds, drugs, cosmetics, etc.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Cool! Look at the following abstract I just found:


Arch Toxicol. 1991;65(6):490-4.

"Effect of alpha-tocopherol and di-butyl-hydroxytoluene (BHT) on UV-A-induced photobinding of 8-methoxypsoralen to Wistar rat epidermal biomacromolecules in vivo"

Schoonderwoerd SA, Beijersbergen van Henegouwen GM, Persons KC.

Division of Medicinal Chemistry, University of Leiden, The Netherlands.

"The possible formation of singlet oxygen via photoexcited psoralens has been associated with the occurrence of, amongst others, erythema. Therefore it has been suggested to combine PUVA with the topical or systemic administration of antioxidants. However, the effect of these antioxidants on the photobinding of psoralens to DNA, which is held responsible for the anti-proliferative effect, should be taken into account. In the present study the effect of two phenolic antioxidants, alpha-tocopherol (AT) and butylated hydroxytoluene (BHT), on the in vivo photobinding of 8-methoxypsoralen (8-MOP) to not only epidermal DNA, but also proteins and lipids was determined. After topical application of an ethanolic antioxidant solution onto the shaven skin of Wistar rats, labeled 8-MOP was applied using the same solvent. After this the rats were exposed to UV-A. By separating epidermal lipids, DNA/RNA and proteins by a selective extraction method, irreversible binding of 8-MOP to each of these biomacromolecules was determined. Both AT and BHT caused a decrease in the photobinding of 8-MOP to epidermal DNA and proteins. To investigate the underlying mechanism of this protection, the effect of AT was compared with that of AT-acetate. It also proved helpful to study the effects of the antioxidants on the photobinding of another photosensitizer, namely chlorpromazine. From these experiments it was concluded that AT and BHT affect 8-MOP photobinding by quenching reactive 8-MOP intermediates, involving the phenolic hydroxyl group of the antioxidants. BHT offered protection against lipid binding of 8-MOP but AT, especially at high concentrations, enhanced the UV-A-induced binding of 8-MOP to lipids.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)"

Hell, I would have liked to have seen the rest of that abstract!! The last sentence apparently indicates that alpha tocopherol actually WORSENED the ultraviolet-induced alteration of lipids under their specific laboratory conditions, whereas BHT protected against it. I'll have to get my hands on the full study to see all the details, I suppose...

Bryan

 

[Whoome?]

yea defintely. I just remember reading from a number of dog forums where they were bashing food with bha and BHT.

Thanks bryan =) always a pleasure.

 

[Matgallis]

damn always good responses. I'm going to look into BHT and grape seed. I think i'm done with vit E

What's your opinion with the aloe vera i am using in my mixture?

 

[Whoome?]

aloe vera's great for your skin.. as far as growth properties i haven't seen anything that supports it. Dont you think your mixing too much into the dermovan? after mixing mine i already noticed that mine was beginning to be much thicker than the original dermovan. I think if you mix too much things into it.. it might ruin some of the solvent properties of dermovan and maybe even the transport properties....

am I right bryan?

 

[Matgallis]

I thought the same but I don't add a ton of aloe vera. Also to note the aloe vera should contain several compounds that help absorbtion. Again though i'm still not sure if i'm just wasting money with this aloe-spironolactone-derm combo

Bryan in regard to BHT, I found a few sources where studies were done involving DHT and animals. Several of the studies found the BHT causes the chance of a cell mutation to increase. (cancer) This would reverse the process i'm trying to accomplish.

i think might just add my aloe vera seperate from my derm -spironolactone app... damn time to do more reserach

Spidy: i'm not really look for skin health (besides irritation and inflammation) but for more of follical cell reproduction. I see DHT attaching itself onto the hair follicals and our white blood cells eating the sh*t out of them. (I don't know if you guys know this but when a hair follical cell splits, half goes out as the hair and the other half stays to split again i.e hair growth) Well if we are attacking and basically shrinking down our hair follical cells, there are few ways to repair these to somewhat normal hair size. I am betting antioxidents can aid this process...

remember this is just speculation and my mind wondering off for hours upon hours...

EDIT: bryan here is that link i have regarding the use of BHT in a lab
http://www.feingold.org/bht.html