DHT and Testosterone kills hair DIRECTLY........study

[michael barry]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum


DHT and T shown CONCLUSIVELY to cause cell death (apoptosis) when given in high amounts to hair from NON-BALDING scalp (like your hippocratic wreath). This slams the door on any who say androgens dont cause baldness on the males head.

 

[Bryan]

This slams the door on any who say androgens dont cause baldness on the males head.

LOL!! That's certainly true, but there are certain individuals (cough::cough) who, no matter HOW many times they get the door slammed in their face, will continue to deny that that damned door really DID get slammed right on their schnoz! :wink:

Bryan

 

[htownballa]

Good post.

I did not realize that testosterone directly can kill the hair. Damn!

 

[Bryan]

I did not realize that testosterone directly can kill the hair. Damn!

Well, it doesn't conclusively PROVE that testosterone can do that, since it obviously could have been metabolized into DHT after it entered the hair follicle cells. But I've previously discussed a certain other line of evidence which suggests that it COULD indeed have been the testosterone, and not DHT. Don't you remember what I've said about that before?

Bryan

 

[htownballa]

I did not realize that testosterone directly can kill the hair. Damn!

Well, it doesn't conclusively PROVE that testosterone can do that, since it obviously could have been metabolized into DHT after it entered the hair follicle cells. But I've previously discussed a certain other line of evidence which suggests that it COULD indeed have been the testosterone, and not DHT. Don't you remember what I've said about that before?

Bryan

Hmm no i dont remember sorry. What line of evidence was that?

 

[TAINTED-MEAT]

So, does this mean that taking Avodart daily can cause hairloss, since it raises scalp testosterone so high even though it blocks so much DHT?

 

[Bryan]

Hmm no i dont remember sorry. What line of evidence was that?

For a long time there's been conflicting information about which type of 5a-reductase occurs in human hair follicle cells. Some earlier studies claimed to find large amounts of the type 1 enzyme, with little or no type 2 at all. Then along came a study by Happle and Hoffmann (1) which seemed to find type 2 almost EXCLUSIVELY within dermal papilla cells. So how does that jive with those ealier studies? One possible clue is that Happle & Hoffman used freshly dissected hair follicles. They went to work on them as soon as they were extracted from their human test subjects! Under those specific conditions, they found that finasteride was BY FAR the main inhibitor of 5a-reductase activity within those hair follicle cells.

The final key to the puzzle, in my opinion, was published in a Japanese study a couple of years after that (2). They found that 5a-reductase type 2 activity in hair follicles evidently is lost fairly quickly when cultured in vitro, but is normally present in vivo. So the bottom-line to all this is that if you do an in vitro study of human hair follicles and add testosterone to them to see how it affects their growth rate, the observed suppression MAY be due more to the direct effect of the testosterone, because less and less of it is being converted into DHT as time goes by.

(1) "Finasteride is the main inhibitor of 5a-reductase activity in microdissected dermal papillae of human hair follicles", Hoffmann and Happle, Arch Dermatol Res (1999) 291: 100-103.

(2) "5-Reductase type 2 is constitutively expressed in the dermal papilla and connective tissue sheath of the hair follicle in vivo but not during culture in vitro", Asada et al, J Clin Endocrinol Metab 86: 2875-2880, 2001.

Bryan

 

[Apoc]

So, does this mean that taking Avodart daily can cause hairloss, since it raises scalp testosterone so high even though it blocks so much DHT?

Well I think that it was proved again and again that some people lose more hair when on Avodart than on Propecia. This alone proved that not only DHT but testosterone as well can kill hair. I figured this some time ago and that's why I stoped all AR reducing internals because there is no point in taking them if my hair will get blasted by test anyway and I had 0 effect while on propecia. And since we don't have a good anti androgen that wouldn't be internaly absorbed I'm stuck with products that just encourage growth and mild topical anti androgens like Revivogen.

So we have two options that we really need here: 1. We need a good topical anti androgen that blocks all testosterone effects on the hair (RU could be one but I don't believe it doesn't get systemicaly absorbed) 2. Or we need a growth promoter so strong that it overrides any testosterone effects. (Curis could be the answer here although again it's unproven and years from release).

If we had the 1. product we could at least maintain hair. If we had the 2. product we could also regrow what was lost. If we had both it would be a solution to hairloss until genetic predisposition can be overcome.

 

[JustAddHair]

can someone pls tell me if the mentioned 10(-5)M concentration is in the range of blood samples of those on finasteride?

if molecules cause the death of folicles vs immune system, how do some people maintain or get regrowth with finasteride? im also confused when CCS mentioned dht is 30 times as potent as testosterone.

 

[Felk]

So, does this mean that taking Avodart daily can cause hairloss, since it raises scalp testosterone so high even though it blocks so much DHT?

Well I think that it was proved again and again that some people lose more hair when on Avodart than on Propecia.

It certainly hasn't been proven, just people seem to complain about avodart causing frontal sheds. However, many people think this is just people being paranoids, like with "finasteride sheds" etc...

We need a good topical anti androgen that blocks all testosterone effects on the hair (RU could be one but I don't believe it doesn't get systemicaly absorbed)

All the studies on RU show that it doesn't get systematically absorbed. Well, it turns into a harmless version when it gets systematically absorbed, or something (my memory is bad, do a pubmed search on RU)

 

[Apoc]

I don't think they are paranoid. Frontal sheds and regrowth can be much better evaluated than loss on other parts of the head. You can see very fast if the treatment is working .

 

[HARM1]

So maybe this is the picture :
DHT AND T START DESTROYING THE CELLS, THEN THE EMUNE SYSTEMS "SEES " THE CELL GON BAD, AND ATTACKS IT?

 

[iamnaked]

I don't think they are paranoid. Frontal sheds and regrowth can be much better evaluated than loss on other parts of the head. You can see very fast if the treatment is working .

I had periods in the early phase of my treatment when my hair would look like complete sh*t at the front, then a few days later it would look much better again.

Hairloss forums attract paranoid b****s like sh*t attracts flies. A cursory trawl of the recent posts to see what the in vogue male pattern baldness bogeyman is (wanking, shampoo, no shampoo, sugar) is should confirm this. If I see a claim that outrages my conception of the science behind it, and which is only being supported by a few anonymous, non-controlled experimental subjects, you'll excuse me if I treat it like bullshit until proven otherwise.

Especially because some people recover from sheds which are a natural part of the cycle.

Because of my own experience (dutasteride = great)

Because nobody has explained to me a scientific method of distinguishing the pattern of paranormal dutasteride front-shedding and the pattern of normal shedding plus dutasteride just not working for you.

 

[Thinning]

Maybe we can make this a sticky and avoid all those stupid threads like hairloss is caused by getting a new job, being a nerd, or not getting laid.

 

[ANDREW_J_I]

hmmmm, so going to the gym and weightlifting will make u lose your hair?

 

[jeffsss]

hmmmm, so going to the gym and weightlifting will make u lose your hair?

people on here are going to say no.. but I've often thought of that also.

I also thought of the previous poster who mentioned that a DHT blocker such as dutasteride or finasteride will cause more free floating test..

so whats the point of taking finasteride if it's both DHT and T that cause hairloss.. obviously everyone is different.

 

[Old Baldy]

Da** Michael. It really does SLAM the door doesn't it!!

Thanks for the info.

 

[Old Baldy]

Good post.

I did not realize that testosterone directly can kill the hair. Damn!

What made you think testosterone didn't play a role (albeit it probably very minor) in our insidious ailment?

I always thought it did. Am I missing some study that concluded testosterone had no effect on male pattern baldness?

I always thought that if you remove DHT, or its effects, than most of us could "handle" the "invasion" of plain ole' testosterone?

Also, stuff like topical spironolactone. should help with the testosterone side of the equation?

I just don't see testosterone, in and of itself, as a "biggie". Am I wrong?

 

[iamnaked]

Testosterone plays a role... but a very minor one. Who remembers the studies of the DHT-deficient males in the Dominican republic who are also extremely deficient in symptoms of male pattern baldness?

 

[Apoc]

I don't think they are paranoid. Frontal sheds and regrowth can be much better evaluated than loss on other parts of the head. You can see very fast if the treatment is working .

I had periods in the early phase of my treatment when my hair would look like complete $#iT at the front, then a few days later it would look much better again.

Hairloss forums attract paranoid b****s like $#iT attracts flies. A cursory trawl of the recent posts to see what the in vogue male pattern baldness bogeyman is (wanking, shampoo, no shampoo, sugar) is should confirm this. If I see a claim that outrages my conception of the science behind it, and which is only being supported by a few anonymous, non-controlled experimental subjects, you'll excuse me if I treat it like bullshit until proven otherwise.

Especially because some people recover from sheds which are a natural part of the cycle.

Because of my own experience (dutasteride = great)

Because nobody has explained to me a scientific method of distinguishing the pattern of paranormal dutasteride front-shedding and the pattern of normal shedding plus dutasteride just not working for you.

Then pls tell how come dutasteride doesn't work in all cases. The amount of DHT it inhibits it should be able to maintain your hair for a long time. I'm still searching for an answer to this question: Why doesn't Propecia and Avodart work for all the people. I'd love to see a study about this.