Dr. Vera Price on the "offset of growth" from mino

[Bryan]

I use that phrase so much, I decided to quote what Dr. Price herself said about it. I think it's a simple and precise way to describe the effect of topical minoxidil! It's from: "Changes in hair weight and hair count in men with androgenetic alopecia, after application of 5% and 2% topical minoxidil, placebo, or no treatment" Price et al, J Am Acad Dermatol 1999;41:717-21.

From the DISCUSSION section: "The placebo and untreated groups appear to behave similarly, showing a steady decrease in hair weight from baseline over the 120 weeks. This decrease can be taken as the 'normal' hair loss for this group of subjects and amounts to about a 6% decrease in weight per year. The 2% and 5% minoxidil groups appear to decrease with nearly the same average downward slope, once the peak rate of growth has been passed. The treatments appear to induce a consistent increased growth offset (above placebo or untreated groups) of roughly 25% for the 2% minoxidil treatment and 35% for the 5% minoxidil treatment, an average increase of about 30%, maintained during the 96 weeks of treatment. These growth effects represent a long-term retardation of the hair loss process by both 5% and 2% topical minoxidil treatments.....After treatment was stopped at week 96, the 5% and 2% minoxidil groups showed a rapid loss of hair weight and decreased hair counts....By 24 weeks after treatment had been stopped, the weight and number counts of the treated groups decreased to become similar to those of the placebo and untreated groups, showing the growth offset produced by topical minoxidil. This loss of treatment-stimulated hair growth is expected since treatment does not alter the underlying genetic predisposition for androgenetic alopecia."

Bryan

 

[Resultsnottypical]

Bryan: Perhaps I am too out of context on this, but is this saying that after about two years with Rogaine, your hair growth "peaks" and from that point onward, you begin to lose about the same amount of hairweight, etc, as non-treated persons, each year, from that initial growth?

I am curious as to when the average peak "rate of increase" is for minoxidil? I am at 6 months, and I am wonder, can I reasonably be expected to gain more over the next 6 months (if I did, I would have my 21-year old head again). And if so, or even if not, at what point do I reach the peak of growth that I will ever see with minoxidil, setting me up for maintenance (and eventually loss I presume).

Make sense?

 

[Bryan]

Bryan: Perhaps I am too out of context on this, but is this saying that after about two years with Rogaine, your hair growth "peaks" and from that point onward, you begin to lose about the same amount of hairweight, etc, as non-treated persons, each year, from that initial growth?

That's the gist of what she's saying, but the peak in this particular study came (vaguely) around the six-month point (well, at least for the hair weight, which Dr. Price argues is a more reliable meaurement than the haircount...the haircount does appear to be higher at 96 weeks than at 6 months). Other studies I've read seemed to show a peak at a later time, roughly around 1 year. Here, take a look at these graphs which I've previously posted...they're from this very same study:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/quitting-minoxidil.htm

You can judge for yourself by staring at those graphs: there's a LOT of fluctuation in both the haircounts and hairweights, but it does look like the best effect for the hair weight is acquired early on (six months or so), followed by a gradual trend in the downward direction.

I am curious as to when the average peak "rate of increase" is for minoxidil? I am at 6 months, and I am wonder, can I reasonably be expected to gain more over the next 6 months (if I did, I would have my 21-year old head again). And if so, or even if not, at what point do I reach the peak of growth that I will ever see with minoxidil, setting me up for maintenance (and eventually loss I presume).

Hard to say. Maybe you've reached your peak already, maybe you'll continue on for a while. Only one way to find out, and that's to wait and see what happens!

Bryan

 

[artvandaley]

So are you saying that minoxidil is just a big waste of time? You can benefit from it for two years then you just go back to where you were when you started?

 

[Guest]

Re: Dr. Vera Price on the "offset of growth" from

.....After treatment was stopped at week 96, the 5% and 2% minoxidil groups showed a rapid loss of hair weight and decreased hair counts....By 24 weeks after treatment had been stopped, the weight and number counts of the treated groups decreased to become similar to those of the placebo and untreated groups, showing the growth offset produced by topical minoxidil.

They completely stopped treatment at week 96. So of course they will go back to the same thing as the untreated groups. If they stayed on the minoxidil, i'm sure they would lose it at a way slower rate.

 

[Kramer3]

Bryan: So those graphs show the flunctuations of people who took it for 96 weeks and then after the 96 weeks dropped the treatment?

Also i'm just curious what type of regimen are you on right now and how long have you been on it for?

 

[Healthy Nick]

Since the problem is obviously tolerance to minoxidil, what about taking a break from it? Does the process start over again? That would make sense.

 

[Bryan]

So are you saying that minoxidil is just a big waste of time?

Of course not! Why wouldn't anyone want an extra offset of hair growth?

You can benefit from it for two years then you just go back to where you were when you started?

Did you look at those two graphs from that study? The haircounts and hairweights after 96 weeks were still well above the baseline numbers. And I've seen other studies that show similar or even better results, like the 5-year long-term study by Olsen et al which showed haircounts well above baseline, even after 5 years!

BTW, even if and when you get back to where you were at the time you started, you'll still probably be considerably ahead of where you WOULD have been, had you never used the minoxidil at all! Keep THAT in mind! :wink: Don't you want to keep as much hair as possible, for as long as possible??

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Bryan: So those graphs show the flunctuations of people who took it for 96 weeks and then after the 96 weeks dropped the treatment?

Exactly!

Also i'm just curious what type of regimen are you on right now and how long have you been on it for?

You may have seen my before-and-after pics on this site, which date from 1995 to 1997....I used only Prox-N and NANO shampoo during that period. Since then, I've added other things like Rogaine, spironolactone, Retin-A, and some experimental treatments, although the last year or two I haven't been very conscientious about using any of them.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Since the problem is obviously tolerance to minoxidil, what about taking a break from it?

Oh, for the love of God! I give up! :firing: :|

Nick, go back and read everything from the beginning...

Bryan

 

[Healthy Nick]

Since the problem is obviously tolerance to minoxidil, what about taking a break from it?

Oh, for the love of God! I give up! :firing: :|

Nick, go back and read everything from the beginning...

Bryan

I clicked on the thread, got a phone call, came back to the computer hours later, read the old existing thread without refreshing it, then responded. So, that explains it etc.


But anyway, this study definitly made me feel better about minoxidil. I have another question though: Have there been any studies on the increased body hair you get from minoxidil? Do you know anything about this personally?


Also, where are your old pictures?

It seems like you were doing something similar to what I am doing, which is basically doing nothing. I am doing nothing at the moment except using a bit of Nizoral and being "healthy". To be honest, my hairloss has slowed to the point where I don't lose much hair. I still lose some, but at this rate, I don't need any treatment. I tried propecia, didn't work, had bad side effects. I am not at a point where I would consider it again because I don't think it would help me. However, I am curious about minoxidil because if I did respond to it, I would definitly be able to come close to the hair I used to have. But as for now, I am interested in where my "doing nothing" treatment will take me. Where did that type of treatment take you?

 

[cyberprimate]

Hey Bryan and others,

I notice from looking at the 2 graphs that the 2% and 5% curves tend to get closer from each other gradually with time. At 96 weeks they're really close. Should one think that after several years they reach the same level?

If so, wouldn't that mean that in the long term people would better off giving their preference to 2% from the start and not risking 5% minoxidil side effects?

 

[fallout]

I did 7 years on minoxidil. It was my only treatment from 1992-99. peaked in between 3rd and 4th year. Continued same regimen for 3 more years and stopped. About 2 years later, I came back and saw modest improvement, but not enough to rededicate my self to it.

It was not a waste of time because my initial results were so outstanding.

 

[artvandaley]

"Kramer3 wrote:
Bryan: So those graphs show the flunctuations of people who took it for 96 weeks and then after the 96 weeks dropped the treatment?

Bryan wrote:
Exactly! "


My fault, i misunderstood what you were you saying earlier in the thread. I thought they continued treatment and after two years they slowly went back to where they were when they started.

 

[Resultsnottypical]

Fallout: INteresting, what are you using now? I am very curious about your progression because at this point, I believe I will only be using minoxidil for the next few years.

At month 6, I have had good regrowth, and look almost completely normal (like I was at 25, I am now 33, I started losing big around 27 and began shaving my head with a razor at that time). I have diffuse thinning with the traditional thinning on the crown...with blond hair, I pretty much had a horseshoe coming on, although the whole head had hair, they were just so fine and thin on top, and getting worse over the years.

What did you finally pick up after leaving minoxidil for good?

I would think it is possible for me to hang on for five years, then switch to either propecia (which I would rather not), or folligen, or perhaps something new that comes out in the next five.

I'm about a norwood 0.5 right now...look like your standard 33-year with slight thinning in the very back/top. Dying it black helped.

This whole conversation is very interesting. I am curious if they ever could do a long-range study where one "cylces" minoxidil (similar to how you can cylce weightlifting for best results, at times actually doing less volume and/or weight, only to progress FURTHER than before once you cycle back heavy at the end of a given time-frame).

Maybe a study where users go three months, one month off, etc...in order to avoid or put off long-term toleration to the benefits of minoxidil.

 

[Bryan]

But anyway, this study definitly made me feel better about minoxidil. I have another question though: Have there been any studies on the increased body hair you get from minoxidil? Do you know anything about this personally?

I haven't seen anything about that in any minoxidil studies, other than just relatively casual mentions of the possibility of increased body hair.

Also, where are your old pictures?

Are my pics no longer on this site?? I'll have to ask HairLossTalk.com about that...

It seems like you were doing something similar to what I am doing, which is basically doing nothing.... But as for now, I am interested in where my "doing nothing" treatment will take me. Where did that type of treatment take you?

I don't understand what you mean. I'm not "doing nothing", I'm definitely "doing something", although I've been less conscientious about it in the last year or two. I use various treatments (when I decide to use something) like Proctor's stuff, Rogaine, Retin-A, fatty acids, spironolactone, and other experimental treatments.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

I notice from looking at the 2 graphs that the 2% and 5% curves tend to get closer from each other gradually with time. At 96 weeks they're really close. Should one think that after several years they reach the same level?

I'm not really sure if they tend to get closer to each other or not...there's so much fluctuation, it's hard to tell!

If so, wouldn't that mean that in the long term people would better off giving their preference to 2% from the start and not risking 5% minoxidil side effects?

I'll take this opportunity to say again that I think that the 2% and 5% solutions are basically the same thing, because they both probably end up as saturated solutions of minoxidil in propylene glycol. The only real difference is just a matter of QUANTITY, in my opinion: 2 1/2 mL of the 2% solution will probably end up in the skin about the same as 1 mL of the 5% solution.

Bryan

 

[Kramer3]

Bryan: I completely understand what your saying about the initial onset of growth. With regrads to minoxidil everything your saying makes sense.
I'd be interested in hearing from someone who's taken only minoxidil for over five years and the results they've seen over that period of time.

I've seen your pictures. I'm surprised that you didn't elect to start treatments such as minoxidil or proscar sooner considering your knowledge in this field.

 

[Healthy Nick]

But anyway, this study definitly made me feel better about minoxidil. I have another question though: Have there been any studies on the increased body hair you get from minoxidil? Do you know anything about this personally?

I haven't seen anything about that in any minoxidil studies, other than just relatively casual mentions of the possibility of increased body hair.

[quote="Healthy Nick":0367d]Also, where are your old pictures?

Are my pics no longer on this site?? I'll have to ask HairLossTalk.com about that...

It seems like you were doing something similar to what I am doing, which is basically doing nothing.... But as for now, I am interested in where my "doing nothing" treatment will take me. Where did that type of treatment take you?

I don't understand what you mean. I'm not "doing nothing", I'm definitely "doing something", although I've been less conscientious about it in the last year or two. I use various treatments (when I decide to use something) like Proctor's stuff, Rogaine, Retin-A, fatty acids, spironolactone, and other experimental treatments.

Bryan[/quote:0367d]

No, I was talking about from 1995-1997 when you said you were just using nano shampoo and something else. How did that go?

Also, are you seeing any results at all from what you're doing? Are you mostly experimenting on yourself, or are you actually trying to do something about your hairloss?

 

[Bryan]

I've seen your pictures. I'm surprised that you didn't elect to start treatments such as minoxidil or proscar sooner considering your knowledge in this field.

Finasteride has always been out of the question for me, because I've always been nervous about using systemic drugs like that.

At the time of those pictures, Rogaine was still a prescription medicine costing around $60-$65 a bottle, so that was also out of the question. I was happy using Prox-N and NANO shampoo.

Bryan