Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

[Derelict]

I will never understand why people want to take E but additionally want to avoid breast growth. What do they expect from taking female hormones?

I think most non trans guys who choose to use estradiol for hair loss expect some level of gyno, it is unavoidable, the severity of it is what matters i think.

 

[DogoDiLaurentiis]

I think most non trans guys who choose to use estradiol for hair loss expect some level of gyno, it is unavoidable, the severity of it is what matters i think.

This, but honestly, I am not comfortable showing my picture on this forum, but if you saw how much of an effect estrogen had on my skin and face when I was in my late 20s and knowing that I didn't have any gyno symptoms as I have known to personally experience them - you'd know why some men would want to get back to that.

You look younger, you feel better, your hair looks better, and I simply don't want to present as a female physically, I just want the benefits of the hormone. It's pretty logical. All young men are pretty estrogenic by comparison to how men get as they get older, it's in part why they look younger to begin with.

For me it's all about finding the ideal balance and yeah a certain level of estrogenic effects are tolerable, but I mean the sore, enlarged areolae and nipples, are things I don't want, and considering how high my estrogen was 10 years ago, it's completely reasonable to expect I can use it to regrow hair and improve my skin without that.

I would be willing to go so far as to have the surgery that prevents estrogen from having any effect on potential breast development at all, I want as many benefits and as few drawbacks as possible. I've done the high testosterone thing, the cult of test is not for me, it's all about cutting a balance where I'm satisfied.

I want hair, and I want to present as male, and it just so happens that my skin and hair are androgen sensitive, which IMO by comparison I believe most men who do not experience Androgenetic Alopecia are in fact just genetically androgen insensitive. Which would explain why a lot of men who do have a very full head of hair tend to experience facial aging much more severely than men who are sensitive to those hormones if their testosterone dips even slightly and there's no estrogen to back it up.

Rich Piana, a semi well known bodybuilder (rest in peace), openly admitted that he was highly androgen insensitive and that it required stupid amounts of steroids for him to get the gains he was satisfied with. He also touted his genetic tendency toward no hair loss and it was only after basically pounding ridiculous amounts of GH and developing diabetes that he really started losing any hair at all.

 

[Staticwavves]

Yeah, but if I were you, I would start at a low dose, because if you aim and hit your dosage too high, you're going to have to potentially wait weeks for the adverse effects to taper off before you can try again. I know this from personal experience because the sides of gyno lingered for weeks and it was annoying and unpleasant.

In the case where you wish to just dive right in and transition or go non-binary in presentation, you may as well take Janey's advice, but if you're looking to split the difference as I am, and get the best of both worlds while preserving your identity as a male, then you most certainly should slap on the training wheels instead of jumping on a Harley, if you know what I mean.

My only annoyance with the idea of buying it on ebay or amazon is the markup, I can technically get my estrogen gel covered if I go with my doctor and he accepts which I think he honestly will. But it all comes down to you, do you trust yourself? Do you know your body well enough? Because when it comes to hormones, nobody can tell you regardless of reference ranges what hormonal range feels "right". You need to determine that for yourself, so if you're willing and you feel you are genuinely able, then yes, try.

I would however start at less than a milligram in terms of dosing, but that's my plan, you must take into account everything you read here and be attentive to the counsel that all people provide on this forum because in the end you're the one in charge.

I will offer this though, if you feel like you're getting overloaded hormonally, buy some calcium d-glucarate, and/or some betaine hydrochloride, as one will hormonally flush you out (beware this means testosterone as well), and the other will help metabolize estrogen.

Good luck, and please report back.

Thank you for your informative reply. I agree with your logic and actually feel myself do deal with androgenic sensitivity as proof of my super high testosterone levels and actual lesions that have appeared on my face which apparently are androgenic derived as I was afraid I had some sort of skin cancer lesion as well as other skin issues I didn’t use to have. My goal is to go extremely slow, not dive in hitting the gas pedal. If anything I’ll start with less than a milligram and see what happens. How often should I dose initially? Daily? Or start weekly and see what happens?

Unfortunately for me here there’s no way I could present a plan based solely on my desire for aesthetic reasons to my doctor as there would be no medical reason that’s evident to support being prescribed estrogen. At least with my doctor/health care network it’s very much by the book. So eBay/Amazon are my options.

 

[DogoDiLaurentiis]

You'll have to do some research and find a preparation you can actually buy in your desired range, I'm not really focused on actual products as my doctor will have to prescribe something to me.

I will personally start at 1 application every 1 to 2 days, and see whether I need to titrate up or down based on need or side effects.

My doctor is a doctor who specializes in hair loss and it is sanctioned by the territory where I live, thus it's a bit easier for him to say "we're trying this as a remedy for hair loss". It's just going to be positively weird af when I go to the pharmacy and they realize I'm a dude getting estrogen as a prescription.

Just remember, if you're attempting this as I am, you're looking for something in a fraction of a milligram range, 17-b estradiol, me personally I saw a product that was 0.06mg that I would like to try first, but again, this is based on what my Doctor can offer me in a practical setting.

 

[Staticwavves]

I have been doing the Kirkland oral thing for a month. I understand about placebos and all but it seems to be working sensationally in combination with my large estradiol doses. It really does almost seem to me that I am seeing something different and better in the mirror every day since I upped my estrogen and now have added oral minoxidil.

In terms of sides, I have put on a lot of weight pretty quickly probably mostly water weight but weight can be lost. Right now only the hair growth matters really, as does the speed of the growth, both of which have started giving me added

You'll have to do some research and find a preparation you can actually buy in your desired range, I'm not really focused on actual products as my doctor will have to prescribe something to me.

I will personally start at 1 application every 1 to 2 days, and see whether I need to titrate up or down based on need or side effects.

My doctor is a doctor who specializes in hair loss and it is sanctioned by the territory where I live, thus it's a bit easier for him to say "we're trying this as a remedy for hair loss". It's just going to be positively weird af when I go to the pharmacy and they realize I'm a dude getting estrogen as a prescription.

Ah well that definitely makes things a lot easier when they are specialized in hair loss and can use it as a reason for being prescribed. The one thing I’m needing help on is determining which estrogen cream. So for sure estrogen and not estriol? Am I wanting bioidentical?

 

[ReturnOfExtreme]

This, but honestly, I am not comfortable showing my picture on this forum, but if you saw how much of an effect estrogen had on my skin and face when I was in my late 20s and knowing that I didn't have any gyno symptoms as I have known to personally experience them - you'd know why some men would want to get back to that.

You look younger, you feel better, your hair looks better, and I simply don't want to present as a female physically, I just want the benefits of the hormone. It's pretty logical. All young men are pretty estrogenic by comparison to how men get as they get older, it's in part why they look younger to begin with.

For me it's all about finding the ideal balance and yeah a certain level of estrogenic effects are tolerable, but I mean the sore, enlarged areolae and nipples, are things I don't want, and considering how high my estrogen was 10 years ago, it's completely reasonable to expect I can use it to regrow hair and improve my skin without that.

I would be willing to go so far as to have the surgery that prevents estrogen from having any effect on potential breast development at all, I want as many benefits and as few drawbacks as possible. I've done the high testosterone thing, the cult of test is not for me, it's all about cutting a balance where I'm satisfied.

I want hair, and I want to present as male, and it just so happens that my skin and hair are androgen sensitive, which IMO by comparison I believe most men who do not experience Androgenetic Alopecia are in fact just genetically androgen insensitive. Which would explain why a lot of men who do have a very full head of hair tend to experience facial aging much more severely than men who are sensitive to those hormones if their testosterone dips even slightly and there's no estrogen to back it up.

Rich Piana, a semi well known bodybuilder (rest in peace), openly admitted that he was highly androgen insensitive and that it required stupid amounts of steroids for him to get the gains he was satisfied with. He also touted his genetic tendency toward no hair loss and it was only after basically pounding ridiculous amounts of GH and developing diabetes that he really started losing any hair at all.

In my opinion, it’s probably worse if you have breast growth along with body hair.

 

[DogoDiLaurentiis]

Ah well that definitely makes things a lot easier when they are specialized in hair loss and can use it as a reason for being prescribed. The one thing I’m needing help on is determining which estrogen cream. So for sure estrogen and not estriol? Am I wanting bioidentical?

Supposedly estriol may have reduced side effects but I would only recommend that if you have had a history of bad gyno in young adulthood say your late teens and early mid 20s. It may not be powerful enough or may lack some specific function that estrogen possesses which may sour your experience on it, at least that is my reasoning.

I would only try estriol as a last resort and simply reduce my overall estradiol dose.

As far as bioidenticals, I have no idea and it seems as if pharmaceutical grade preparations are much lower in concentration (which I assume means their delivery is more consistent due to said preparation) than bioidenticals. It means with non-pharmaceutical grade preparations, you may get a weaker receptor level response while flooding your body with more estrogen you don't want.

I'm basing my plans entirely on what information is provided in this thread and specifically the results achieved by the OP based on the usage of 0.75mg 17b estradiol topical, and the relative regrowth results.

Because my hairloss is not as dramatic as the OP, I will require less to stabilize my hair and regrow what I have where the density is weaker.

You're basically out in uncharted waters from my perspective if you use open market estrogen preparations, perhaps there are some people here who have used them successfully, but they may be people who desired to transition which contributes to my concern that those perparations may result in higher overall serum estrogen while not exerting the same profound effect at the application site, which is exactly what I'm not looking for.

 

[DogoDiLaurentiis]

In my opinion, it’s probably worse if you have breast growth along with body hair.

Both of those things can be managed, especially body hair unless you're genetically predisposed to looking like a rug, which I'm not.

 

[Staticwavves]

Supposedly estriol may have reduced side effects but I would only recommend that if you have had a history of bad gyno in young adulthood say your late teens and early mid 20s. It may not be powerful enough or may lack some specific function that estrogen possesses which may sour your experience on it, at least that is my reasoning.

I would only try estriol as a last resort and simply reduce my overall estradiol dose.

As far as bioidenticals, I have no idea and it seems as if pharmaceutical grade preparations are much lower in concentration (which I assume means their delivery is more consistent due to said preparation) than bioidenticals. It means with non-pharmaceutical grade preparations, you may get a weaker receptor level response while flooding your body with more estrogen you don't want.

I'm basing my plans entirely on what information is provided in this thread and specifically the results achieved by the OP based on the usage of 0.75mg 17b estradiol topical, and the relative regrowth results.

Because my hairloss is not as dramatic as the OP, I will require less to stabilize my hair and regrow what I have where the density is weaker.

You're basically out in uncharted waters from my perspective if you use open market estrogen preparations, perhaps there are some people here who have used them successfully, but they may be people who desired to transition which contributes to my concern that those perparations may result in higher overall serum estrogen while not exerting the same profound effect at the application site, which is exactly what I'm not looking for.

Okay thank you for clarifying estriol as I had found a thread on these forums stating that was the best as far as avoiding sides go. I’ve never had gyno in my life except when I was going through puberty and it lasted for only about 2 weeks which I think is pretty normal from what I’ve read.

I definitely feel like I can really relate with your goals and outlook on the matter so I really do appreciate your time in breaking things down in an easier digestible format. My hair loss isn’t anything close to OP, but I’ll post pics as what I’m dealing with which is a lot of diffuse thinning/shedding but some definite loss in overall number of hairs on scalp and receding hairline that I’m trying to intervene on asap due to such high testosterone levels which can’t be medically explained at all other other than they are my normal ranges or I’m resistant to testosterone which I don’t think is the case at all and neither does my endocrinologist. Unfortunately I don’t have any really good befores showing my hairline when it was at its fullest. So my idea is almost looking at this as microdosing estrogen to compensate for my wild testosterone levels and increase hair growth/thickness. I have a scale I can use but I’ll try looking for something that’s more so directed as low dose. But I understand that there are risks in doing so as they aren’t pharmaceutical grade. I’ll be sure to report back if I do end up going with a cream as well as progress. I’m very curious to find out how everything works out for you and I hope your doctor will accept your plan of action. Looking forward to hearing your results!!

 

[DogoDiLaurentiis]

I'm not even sure you need estrogen, I mean you can definitely try it if you want, but your scalp in the third photo looks inflamed slightly. Did your doctor identify inflammation as a possible cause? Corticosteroids proven to increase hair growth may help just as much, it just depends on what your Doctor thinks.

Are you on any kind of DHT inhibitor at all?

Have you checked your thyroid levels lately? because diffuse shedding all over tends to be a result of that, or having your T3 levels too high.

If you really feel like you're on the ropes with this hairloss you can definitely give the bioidenticals a go, but if you find that it's overloading your body with estrogen you may want to try creating a dilute solution by incorporating the ingredients of the topical with some kind of solvent and a distilled water solution and apply it via dropper bottle.

You are definitely in the range where you can do something but I would definitely not use an excessive amount of hormones, it looks like telogen effluvium, but for what reason I could not tell you except that covid is reported in quite a few cases to cause diffuse hair loss. =/

 

[Staticwavves]

I'm not even sure you need estrogen, I mean you can definitely try it if you want, but your scalp in the third photo looks inflamed slightly. Did your doctor identify inflammation as a possible cause? Corticosteroids proven to increase hair growth may help just as much, it just depends on what your Doctor thinks.

Are you on any kind of DHT inhibitor at all?

Have you checked your thyroid levels lately? because diffuse shedding all over tends to be a result of that, or having your T3 levels too high.

If you really feel like you're on the ropes with this hairloss you can definitely give the bioidenticals a go, but if you find that it's overloading your body with estrogen you may want to try creating a dilute solution by incorporating the ingredients of the topical with some kind of solvent and a distilled water solution and apply it via dropper bottle.

You are definitely in the range where you can do something but I would definitely not use an excessive amount of hormones, it looks like telogen effluvium, but for what reason I could not tell you except that covid is reported in quite a few cases to cause diffuse hair loss. =/

Yeah as far as all my labs go, thyroid is all good, t3/t4 all good. I had really low ferritin levels(14) a few years back that I’ve been supplementing to bring back up which is at a 83 as of a few weeks ago. Through discovery a month ago through an MRI I do have a pituitary tumor that’s causing high prolactin that I’ve just begun taking medication for only about 2 weeks ago. However we ruled out the tumor isn’t causing my high testosterone levels and at this point is just being treated for the high prolactin and it’s only 2mm. So I’m not entirely sure how much of an impact that could be having with my hair/hormones with having high prolactin as the rest of my hormones are normal besides high test.

As far as the hormonal/estrogen route goes, I do see it as truly a last resort as I understand the gravity of what I’m dealing with by introducing something like this. I’ve definitely dealt with scalp issues like dandruff, dryness/redness for several years and overall do feel it’s inflamed or the follicles themselves are. My new dermatologist is pretty cool and wrote my script for dutasteride really easily so maybe I’ll bring up doing a scalp biopsy to see if potentially there’s something else going on besides just regular alopecia. I’m hoping overall I see better results from dutasteride than I have from finasteride.

 

[WindR]

Prolactine is bad for hair. I think you should normalize it and wait two months before messing your hormonal system with dutasteride.

 

[ReturnOfExtreme]

Both of those things can be managed, especially body hair unless you're genetically predisposed to looking like a rug, which I'm not.

They can be, but men seem to want to keep their body hair whilst feminising which makes zero sense to me. On E, they will no longer look entirely male and androgynous at least. I never understand why people who take E keep their body/facial hair, it never made sense to me and makes you look like a woman with PCOS.

Regardless, what is your regimen if you don’t mind me asking?

 

[ReturnOfExtreme]

Also, today I will be testing the fermented rice water situation! I will not be washing my hair for 5-7 days (on top of the current 3 days I haven’t washed my hair), and applying it to my scalp daily for the duration of it. I will report on what happens, and if I have an issue with protein overload, etc. I’m wondering if it’s more effective in women due to E, and why men rarely report an effect from using fermented rice water for hair growth.

 

[Jacob Williams]

Didn’t notice before but apparently I can lactate. Pretty sure I couldn’t do that when I was on Bicalutamide alone. I’m guessing this is a result of the elevated prolactin from the CPA and that it will go away the longer I’m off the drug? I’ve been off for about a week now.

 

[ReturnOfExtreme]

MtFs used to be overwhelmingly transsexual even ten years ago, I believe. The non-binary movement has sort of co-opted the MtF designation and that might be why. There is definitely unstated friction among at least some related to people claiming to be MtF and essentially making little or no attempt to look like a cis-female. Then you have the conflation of dress with gender that is another confounding factor. To each their own as the French are wont to say.

With respect to beard removal, that is a difficult choice at least initially because "you can't go back" and there are contexts where beards are attractive and "useful" to males. My facial and scalp dermatitis was making my life so miserable that this wasn't too hard of a decision to make but it is a little bit like SRS in that you make the decision once, essentially. It is sort of strange to think that cis-females taking male hormones can grow beards but I really can't any longer regardless. I definitely think that research is merited on the hormonal changes in facial and scalp tissue effectuated by beard removal. The follicles themselves are destroyed and seem therefore unable to synthesize DHT any longer. Neither finasteride nor dutasteride helped at all with my facial dermatitis. Only beard removal seemed to help although I was using far less estrogen at the time. I used to bleed and would get a rash every time that I shaved and I have posted pictures of these effects. Everything above the neck that sucks, like acne, dermatitis, baldness, dandruff and so on is related to DHT and a person's body not being able to adequately deal with the levels, almost like a facial allergy to DHT. It's weird because we all need DHT for sexual differentiation and secondary body hair growth but among caucasians, DHT can easily wreak havoc and destroy self-esteem for both females with PCOS, etc. and for males who are burdened disproportionately by acne, baldness, dandruff, etc.

I will never understand today’s society of not putting effort into transitioning. It’s their life, but it’s unfair to other trans women to be compared to these particular people, and it makes me dysphoric knowing I could be compared to people who have chest hair and a beard.

I agree with the facial hair, though. Once you’ve gotten it removed, there’s no going back. However, these people are taking E and are a minority, and the feminising effects will end up looking bizarre if they look more androgynous but have facial hair. I was so lucky to start getting laser hair removal in my early teens on my face, and no longer grow any, although how do you deal with your side burns? My side burns are thick and similar to a males, and I have no idea on how to manage them or what length they’re supposed to be.

I find those pictures on transbreast timelines to be somewhat unsettling with the big hairy breasts but again, it's possible that some folks like that look. It will always be jarring visually though since we have pretty well conceived notions of what caucasian males and females look like going back to the Greeks and then the Romans in terms of "classical" beauty. I have always been struck by the lack of sexual dimorphism found in many paintings and sculptures by the Greeks and Romans. The male gods tended to have beards and often curly hair but were often depicted with what might only be called "slight genitalia" and there were many like Dionysus who were often depicted in an androgynous fashion from head to toe. Jesus's perfect head of rock and roll hair is likely to be contrived.

Even Venus/Aphrodite in some aspects, is presented in a much more androgynous fashion than we might expect, particularly with respect to breast growth. I often find the MtF preoccupation with breasts to actually play out as less feminizing than having smaller ones but breasts seem to have become a "bigger" deal in our times perhaps in terms of sexual dimorphism in a non-functional sense but rather one in terms of sending signals to potential partners. Beards appear to have played a similar role among whites and Semitic peoples who while often categorized as being from separate races, appear more so to be differentiated by linguistic origins, i.e., Indo-European vs. Semites.

Yeah, seeing people with breasts and hair in the area is unsettling, the pieces don’t fit together. And, this isn’t based on societal norms, but secondary sex characteristics and how the puzzle doesn’t fit. People do say that some women have chest hair, but they have medical conditions (such as PCOS) which they end up treating.

 

[ReturnOfExtreme]

Didn’t notice before but apparently I can lactate. Pretty sure I couldn’t do that when I was on Bicalutamide alone. I’m guessing this is a result of the elevated prolactin from the CPA and that it will go away the longer I’m off the drug? I’ve been off for about a week now.

It’s a sign you’re reaching motherhood

 

[ReturnOfExtreme]

I’ve started taking MSM today along with the vitamin c!

 

[ReturnOfExtreme]

Can you describe why you think that taking MSM will be beneficial?

I am leery of vitamin C as a touted treatment for anything except scurvy since it is often alleged to do pretty much anything, like preventing cancer or heart disease, etc. Looking at my Nature Made Multi-vitamin from Amazon, I have 60 mg of vitamin C, 30 mcg of biotin, 20 mcg of selenium, 2 mg of copper and 15 mg of zinc, to mention those vitamins that seem to pop up most as being touted for hair loss. I was on Acetyl Cysteine for a long time, mostly for its purported cognitive effects but that is an expensive one that is sometimes touted on here as well. They all seem innocuous and pretty cheap with the exception of L. Cysteine, which might have the further cognitive benefits to boast of.

It‘s reported that it increases hair growth, people experience 2x to 3x more hair growth after taking it, although genetics probably do play a part and it differentiates between each person. I’m wondering if it will work for me, and if so, how fast my hair will grow. I just do not want to wait 12 months for my hair to grow just six inches... Vitamin C in combination with MSM increases the absorption I think?

 

[ReturnOfExtreme]

Okay. I see that it is another sulfur-related compound like cysteine and well, sulfur, itself but that it might have a different chemical form that allows it to form bonds promoting hair and faster growth but it appears that you have to mix it yourself from powder. I am tempted but at some point our treatments probably become superfluous and I am not sure I can fit anything else in with all of the meds and the derma-rolling. I do drink caffeine which is supposed to increase growth rate minimally according to Perfect Hair Health and maybe a shampoo would help but I already have my Keto 2 percent that I use sparingly and my aspirin-based dandruff shampoo, both of which wreck my hair by stripping it of essential oils. I barely have to shampoo any longer and the estrogel actually seems to clean the hair, perhaps due to its alcohol content.

At what point does this become a hobby versus a life style choice versus an obsession? I think that all of us need to mind that line as best as possible as it can become easy to want to try everything. Just look at all of the things that people list on hairlosstalk such as onion juice and cayenne pepper and caffeine and zinc and it goes on and on and sadly, no one ever posts any pictures except on the hormonal sites. I think that after 5000 years of recorded history that we would know if onion juice cured baldness by now. That's why I doubt that help is on the way for cis-males that do not involve hormonal solutions like finasteride or dutasteride. The cure has to be developed; it isn't likely to already be "out there" on the health food store shelves, except for polysorbate 80 which I still think to be quite helpful with inflammation. We sort of know how to deal with inflammation and yeast overruns resulting in dermatitis but changing what is happening with the derma papillaries is currently beyond us except in terms of halting the hair loss process temporarily.

I just hate how slow hair growth is, after shaving my head a year ago after a mental breakdown, it’s taking forever to grow out. And then during quarantine, I tried trimming the dead ends from my hair and ruined it more! After getting it ‘fixed’ by the hairdresser, she gave me a lob-sided middle part... This year has been a mixture of great and awful. I am hoping MSM and Vitamin C makes my hair grow faster. I will continue praying to God and keeping my faith up.

I have been lucky to be patient with trying treatments, I never bothered trying different treatments and instead gave treatments time to see if they worked. I‘m happy with my current regimen, but my hairline is bothering me, I may end up trying topical minoxidil on the hairline or opting for a minor hair transplant.