Fibrosis & Calcification Reversal: Rob's Hypotheses & Theories

[BalderBaldyBald]

No, that is not true, scarred tissue are scarred forever (for now)

 

[BalderBaldyBald]

Also from 2015, Mayumi Ito, currently working with Cotsarelis on Follica and Wound healing protocol

Wound Healing and Skin Regeneration
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4292081/

Good read

The only ones as of today claiming they've succeded to bypass the healing scarring process are PolarityTE

You can't even completly erase stretch marks, ask Kim Kardashian (millionaire and addicted to surgery and skin care, who has access to best doctors) and you really believes you're gonna "erase" scars ? Pls guys...

Sure, tell this guy to dermaroll

 

[BalderBaldyBald]

Bypassing the scarring process is not the same as scars go away after they are formed.
How would plasmin exist, if it’s sole purpose is to remove fibrosis in the blood vessels

Because scarring is not fibrosis

Scarring can be induce by too long and too much fibrosis, causing too much damage and after that, you're fucked, scarring process kicks in

 

[HelixO]

Because scarring is not fibrosis

Scarring quite literally is fibrosis. It's literally in the definition.

"Fibrosis: the thickening and scarring of connective tissue, usually as a result of injury." (google definition)
"Scar: A scar is an area of fibrous tissue that replaces normal skin after an injury." (wiki)
"Scar: a mark left on the skin or within body tissue where a wound, burn, or sore has not healed completely and fibrous connective tissue has developed." (google definition)

The words are nearly interchangable. All scars are composed of fibrotic tissue, and excessive fibrotic tissue is referred to as scarring, because it represents an abnormally healed wound with excessive collagen. The differences in usage are mostly colloquial.

Scarring process is very different from calcification, there's no turning back from scarring alopecia, even with dermaroll
And no, you can't erase scars, this just does not exist yet (cf. Cotsarelis who is working on this for a long time now)
You can "maybe" make them less visible to your eyes, but a scarred skin stay scarred

I don't know in which world you're living, but it's clearly not Earth in 2018

Lol well you're talking to someone who used to have multiple hyper/hypotropic scars on his face from surgery, and has had them totally healed through a combination of multiple fraxel laser treatments and microneedling treatments. Cost me about $3000 but it sure as hell worked. This is not new science by any means. Skin resurfacing is a very well understood topic in dermatology and very widely researched, where if you damage the skin to a deep enough layer, the skin itself will resurface. As far as I know there is no scar too great for fraxel lasering to treat, and you can find literally thousands of before and after pictures on google of this.

The resurfacing of skin layers and collagen via microneedling is also well studied and proven. This is one of the most highly studied topics in dermatology and for you to imply it is fictional speaks volumes for the lack of research you've done lmao. The entire premise behind skin resurfacing is really quite simple. Scar tissue is excessive collagen that build up during a healing process. By using microneedling or laser treatments, you break down that excessive tissue overtime, and it is replaced by more appropriate amounts of tissue, through what is basically a controlled healing process. The same methodology is used by laser clinics to remove wrinkles - these laser systems which cost up to $150k+. Laser is consider more effective as a resurfacing treatment because it creates much smaller puncture holes than microneedling, but both are effective none the less if you go deep enough.

You can simple google "fraxel laser scars" or "microneedling scars" to find tons of professional dermatology before/after photos. This stuff is as legitimate as it gets. If you damage the skin at a deep enough laser, the body will clear out that damaged tissue and replace it with newer healthier tissue.

 

[Hairsystemnoob]

Scarring quite literally is fibrosis. It's literally in the definition.

"Fibrosis: the thickening and scarring of connective tissue, usually as a result of injury." (google definition)
"Scar: A scar is an area of fibrous tissue that replaces normal skin after an injury." (wiki)
"Scar: a mark left on the skin or within body tissue where a wound, burn, or sore has not healed completely and fibrous connective tissue has developed." (google definition)

The words are nearly interchangable. All scars are composed of fibrotic tissue, and excessive fibrotic tissue is referred to as scarring, because it represents an abnormally healed wound with excessive collagen. The differences in usage are mostly colloquial.




Lol well you're talking to someone who used to have multiple hyper/hypotropic scars on his face from surgery, and has had them totally healed through a combination of multiple fraxel laser treatments and microneedling treatments. Cost me about $3000 but it sure as hell worked. This is not new science by any means. Skin resurfacing is a very well understood topic in dermatology and very widely researched, where if you damage the skin to a deep enough layer, the skin itself will resurface. As far as I know there is no scar too great for fraxel lasering to treat, and you can find literally thousands of before and after pictures on google of this.

The resurfacing of skin layers and collagen via microneedling is also well studied and proven. This is one of the most highly studied topics in dermatology and for you to imply it is fictional speaks volumes for the lack of research you've done lmao. The entire premise behind skin resurfacing is really quite simple. Scar tissue is excessive collagen that build up during a healing process. By using microneedling or laser treatments, you break down that excessive tissue overtime, and it is replaced by more appropriate amounts of tissue, through what is basically a controlled healing process. The same methodology is used by laser clinics to remove wrinkles - these laser systems which cost up to $150k+. Laser is consider more effective as a resurfacing treatment because it creates much smaller puncture holes than microneedling, but both are effective none the less if you go deep enough.

You can simple google "fraxel laser scars" or "microneedling scars" to find tons of professional dermatology before/after photos. This stuff is as legitimate as it gets. If you damage the skin at a deep enough laser, the body will clear out that damaged tissue and replace it with newer healthier tissue.

Do you think a high Norwood guy could heal his baldness by doing laser treatment in his scalp?

Can I add you somewhere to ask you a few things about scarring? You seem to know a lot about it. Do you use Discord?

 

[HelixO]

Do you think a high Norwood guy could heal his baldness by doing laser treatment in his scalp?

Can I add you somewhere to ask you a few things about scarring? You seem to know a lot about it. Do you use Discord?

I don't know much about using laser to treat baldness, since lasers are typically used to destroy hair follicles, but I believe there are certain wavelengths which could be used that wouldn't destroy the follicle. It's best to look for a clinic that specializes in this. Most clinics typically just do needling for hair, but the advantage laser has in general is that it resurfaces much more effectively because the laser 'dots' are much smaller than needles would be. Best bet is to probably look for a clinic that specializes in hair, rather than a general "laser clinic" (which often specialize in women/beauty treatments), though some may know about hair treatments as well.

There are a few people on this forum that have had excellent results from just using finasteride + Microneedling (penetration depth being very important). I also personally advocate using Minoxidil for this initial regeneration as well (but it's not necessary, just speeds up progress). I do not believe hairs become "dependent" on Minoxidil as many people suggest, rather, Minoxidil is just a growth acceleration/aid. Hairs which typically fall out after Minoxidil usage is stopped are typically in areas that were already bald to begin with, meaning the scalp region itself could not sustain those hairs on its own, likely due to fibrosis tissue still being there. I truly believe that with a consistent treatment of finasteride/Min/Needling for a year or so, even the most severe Norwood could regain all of their hair, as well as keep it once they decide to stop finasteride/Min - microneedling being the most essential factor for actual scalp health regeneration.

You can PM me about scarring if you want, or ask here if you think it's relevant to the scalp fibrosis discussion.

 

[HairSuit]

I really really want to buy into the microneedling of it all. With out a doubt it works, and we’ve seen that on certain guys. The thing that is hanging me up is my wins experience with it. I am a NW2 (have had a FUE to film in hairline years ago). Started needling 4 months ago..... hair has never been worse in 20 years of hairloss. I am the perfect case for needling to work, and it just hasn’t. Yet, maybe? But again, I haven’t been a NW7 for 15 years either, so it should respond quickly. With this series it explains so much that the androgen theory does not. That said, if it’s true, should technically work for everyone, fibrosis being the key factor..... and the needling results have thus far been hit or miss. Time will tell.

 

[HelixO]

I am a NW2 (have had a FUE to film in hairline years ago). Started needling 4 months ago..... hair has never been worse in 20 years of hairloss. I am the perfect case for needling to work, and it just hasn’t. Yet, maybe? But again, I haven’t been a NW7 for 15 years either, so it should respond quickly. With this series it explains so much that the androgen theory does not. That said, if it’s true, should technically work for everyone, fibrosis being the key factor..... and the needling results have thus far been hit or miss. Time will tell.

Little confused. You have FUE to fill in your hairline, but you used to be NW7 15 years ago? NW7 -> NW2 requires more than just FUE, so what else did you do to get all that hair back? Minoxidil, finasteride? You only describe microneedling, but surely you were doing something else if you regained that hair? Did you stop your other treatments? Also how deep have you been needling? A bit difficult to get a clear idea without a chronological timeline. I've never heard of needling making somebodies hair worse, but I could see it being ineffective if they don't go deep enough.

 

[HairSuit]

Little confused. You have FUE to fill in your hairline, but you used to be NW7 15 years ago? NW7 -> NW2 requires more than just FUE, so what else did you do to get all that hair back? Minoxidil, finasteride? You only describe microneedling, but surely you were doing something else if you regained that hair? Did you stop your other treatments? Also how deep have you been needling? A bit difficult to get a clear idea without a chronological timeline. I've never heard of needling making somebodies hair worse, but I could see it being ineffective if they don't go deep enough.

Sorry if it was unclear. What I was saying is that IF I had been a NW7 for 15 years, I would expect this to take some time to produce results. I am only a Norwood 2, so I expected at least something to happen by month 4, other than the hairline continuing to thin and get worse. That hasn’t happened. I am using the derminator at 1.5mm. Still going at it. Just bummed to have not experienced any benefits, yet. Holding out hope. Visibly, you can see the fibrosis build up on a NW7 scalp. It is clear there is actual change in shape of the scalp. Hard to deny this (for those that deny fibrosis plays a large role in hairloss)

 

[HelixO]

Sorry if it was unclear. What I was saying is that IF I had been a NW7 for 15 years, I would expect this to take some time to produce results. I am only a Norwood 2, so I expected at least something to happen by month 4, other than the hairline continuing to thin and get worse. That hasn’t happened. I am using the derminator at 1.5mm. Still going at it. Just bummed to have not experienced any benefits, yet. Holding out hope. Visibly, you can see the fibrosis build up on a NW7 scalp. It is clear there is actual change in shape of the scalp. Hard to deny this (for those that deny fibrosis plays a large role in hairloss)

Interesting - are you using anything else along with the needling? Also I'm curious how often you are needling? BTW - I know a lot of people needle once a week, but truthfully in a dermatology setting, they would never needle that deeply more than 1 once a month, because the deeper you go, the longer the skin takes to fully heal. I'm not sure if over-needling could have a negative impact, but it stands to reason that it's possible.I wonder if excessive needling could shock the hair.

Also this may be relevant - when many people start finasteride, some go through an initial aggressive shedding/recession in their areas of their hair closest to the recession. I have a theory that this is because the scalp is pushing out those weak/damaged hairs to make room for healthier ones. A similar effect can be observed when people start minoxidil as well. So, I wonder if something similar can occur with needling.

 

[BalderBaldyBald]

Scarring quite literally is fibrosis. It's literally in the definition.

"Fibrosis: the thickening and scarring of connective tissue, usually as a result of injury." (google definition)
"Scar: A scar is an area of fibrous tissue that replaces normal skin after an injury." (wiki)
"Scar: a mark left on the skin or within body tissue where a wound, burn, or sore has not healed completely and fibrous connective tissue has developed." (google definition)

The words are nearly interchangable. All scars are composed of fibrotic tissue, and excessive fibrotic tissue is referred to as scarring, because it represents an abnormally healed wound with excessive collagen. The differences in usage are mostly colloquial.




Lol well you're talking to someone who used to have multiple hyper/hypotropic scars on his face from surgery, and has had them totally healed through a combination of multiple fraxel laser treatments and microneedling treatments. Cost me about $3000 but it sure as hell worked. This is not new science by any means. Skin resurfacing is a very well understood topic in dermatology and very widely researched, where if you damage the skin to a deep enough layer, the skin itself will resurface. As far as I know there is no scar too great for fraxel lasering to treat, and you can find literally thousands of before and after pictures on google of this.

The resurfacing of skin layers and collagen via microneedling is also well studied and proven. This is one of the most highly studied topics in dermatology and for you to imply it is fictional speaks volumes for the lack of research you've done lmao. The entire premise behind skin resurfacing is really quite simple. Scar tissue is excessive collagen that build up during a healing process. By using microneedling or laser treatments, you break down that excessive tissue overtime, and it is replaced by more appropriate amounts of tissue, through what is basically a controlled healing process. The same methodology is used by laser clinics to remove wrinkles - these laser systems which cost up to $150k+. Laser is consider more effective as a resurfacing treatment because it creates much smaller puncture holes than microneedling, but both are effective none the less if you go deep enough.

You can simple google "fraxel laser scars" or "microneedling scars" to find tons of professional dermatology before/after photos. This stuff is as legitimate as it gets. If you damage the skin at a deep enough laser, the body will clear out that damaged tissue and replace it with newer healthier tissue.

Yep fraxel laser and microneedling don't erase scars, you can ask tons of dermatologists
Personaly i have, cause i have pretty huge scars, and you can just make it look less visible to your eyes, that's it

So i say it again, this is impossible, you won't ever have any hair on this skin, at a histopatholical level, this is not regular skin

You guys are mixiing up everything
Fraxel CO2 laser can't even completely erase stretch marks.......and this is an old tech aswell btw

 

[HairSuit]

Interesting - are you using anything else along with the needling? Also I'm curious how often you are needling? BTW - I know a lot of people needle once a week, but truthfully in a dermatology setting, they would never needle that deeply more than 1 once a month, because the deeper you go, the longer the skin takes to fully heal. I'm not sure if over-needling could have a negative impact, but it stands to reason that it's possible.I wonder if excessive needling could shock the hair.

Also this may be relevant - when many people start finasteride, some go through an initial aggressive shedding/recession in their areas of their hair closest to the recession. I have a theory that this is because the scalp is pushing out those weak/damaged hairs to make room for healthier ones. A similar effect can be observed when people start minoxidil as well. So, I wonder if something similar can occur with needling.

Using minoxidil like everyone else. Been Using it for 10 years. It’s not from initial shed. Perhaps frequency is the issue. Perhaps once per week is too much, however, this is what the study did. Between one and two weeks.

 

[HelixO]

Using minoxidil like everyone else. Been Using it for 10 years. It’s not from initial shed. Perhaps frequency is the issue. Perhaps once per week is too much, however, this is what the study did. Between one and two weeks.

Hmmm... I'd personally recommend finasteride over Minoxidil, as finasteride does more to address the actual cause of loss at the scalp than minoxidil. In your case, I'm worried that simply using needling alongside minoxidil is perhaps upsetting the balance that Minoxidil has been maintaining, or something along those lines. finasteride is without a doubt "more natural" than minoxidil given its mechanism, since it is just reducing DHT, rather than directly interacting with sites in the scalp/hair.

Yep fraxel laser and microneedling don't erase scars, you can ask tons of dermatologists
Personaly i have, cause i have pretty huge scars, and you can just make it look less visible to your eyes, that's it

Erase is a strong word. They don't "erase" anything, what they do is damage the tissue in a controlled manner so it can be progressively replaced by healthier tissue, and with enough treatments, you can get to the point where the tissue has been 100% replaced and there is nothing remaining of the scar, visible or otherwise. This is certainly dooable with both needling and lasering, but again, not in 1 treatment, sometimes up to 10 are required for more extreme cases, but with enough treatments, the mark can be 100% removed. I'm not sure what dermatologist you talked with, but I've actually had multiple fraxel treatments and have gotten some pretty serious scars removed completely with enough treatments. This was what I expected going into it after seeing the hundreds of before/after photos online, and my results turned out exactly like the photos.

 

[HairSuit]

Hmmm... I'd personally recommend finasteride over Minoxidil, as finasteride does more to address the actual cause of loss at the scalp than minoxidil. In your case, I'm worried that simply using needling alongside minoxidil is perhaps upsetting the balance that Minoxidil has been maintaining, or something along those lines. finasteride is without a doubt "more natural" than minoxidil given its mechanism, since it is just reducing DHT, rather than directly interacting with sites in the scalp/hair.





Erase is a strong word. They don't "erase" anything, what they do is damage the tissue in a controlled manner so it can be progressively replaced by healthier tissue, and with enough treatments, you can get to the point where the tissue has been 100% replaced and there is nothing remaining of the scar, visible or otherwise. This is certainly dooable with both needling and lasering, but again, not in 1 treatment, sometimes up to 10 are required for more extreme cases, but with enough treatments, the mark can be 100% removed. I'm not sure what dermatologist you talked with, but I've actually had multiple fraxel treatments and have gotten some pretty serious scars removed completely with enough treatments. This was what I expected going into it after seeing the hundreds of before/after photos online, and my results turned out exactly like the photos.

Buddy....... I used finasteride for 15 years. Been at this game for a while. Had to stop because finasteride ruined my health after all those years. I’ve done it all.

 

[integra]

DHT actiavtes in the scalp because of inflammation. REmove inflamamtion, usually caused by stress, and you wont need to block your dht.
Yes finasteride and minoxidil would make regrowth faster but why do that when you can reverse balding without any health issues just by needling

Which makes me ask, how does one reduce inflammation, what sort of lifestyle does it require? Whenever I start exercising even if it's walking for 1 hr a day, this inflammation returns.

 

[HairCook]

Idk why you are digging up decades old theories and methods but wont try topical sodium thiosulfate?

You think ppl didnt try massage and magnesium etc 10 years ago?

 

[Saulo]

DHT actiavtes in the scalp because of inflammation. REmove inflamamtion, usually caused by stress, and you wont need to block your dht.
Yes finasteride and minoxidil would make regrowth faster but why do that when you can reverse balding without any health issues just by needling

Did you or anyone you heard of try magnesium oil, vitamin K2, vit D and Cod Liver Oil?
In one of the links you posted there are people reporting that shed's stopped and they are experiencing regrowth after 6 or 7 months.

 

[jjamerson]

It's pretty well established at this point that there is a connection between DHT and Fibrosis (Collagen build up). Studies have proven that balding areas of the scalp have elevated levels of DHT over non-balding areas. Studies have proven that balding areas of the scalp have up to 4x as much collagen tissue build up (Fibrosis) than non-balding areas. Studies have also well established that microneedling helps initiate the breakupof fibrotic tissue extremely effectively (it's #1 researched effect in dermatology). Likewise, a lot of people who have gotten hair transplants but refused to take finasteride often ended up loosing that transplanted hair, which further suggests hair loss is a local scalp issue and has nothing to do with "hair sensitivity to DHT".

None of this is theory, it is all well proven and established.

The theory relates to why all this occurs. I think it is likely that DHT both causes fibrosis which restricts bloodflow, and I think DHT also acts as an anti-inflammatory on its own (which reduces bloodflow). This is why lowering DHT levels can bring back hair growth in some areas of the scalp, but not in areas that have already been taken over by fibrosis, which requires either a blood vessel dilator like minoxidil to regrow, or simply addressing the fibrosis itself with mechanical stimulation.

I believe a lot of this is accurate, but wasn’t there a study where they transplanted follicles from balding regions and donor regions onto the patient’s arm, and found that the follicles from the balding areas continued to thin and fall out at the same rate as the other balding areas, but the donor area follicles continued to grow? This implies that the problem stays with the follicle. I wish I could find the study.

 

[Splatt]

Scalp hardening may not be the result of only calcification. excess sebum causes scalp keratinization disorder. Sulfur can eliminate this keratinization disorder.
but baldness does not reverse unless excessive sebum returns to normal. The sebum controls by androgen receptor. I managed to stop the sebum with a natural androgen receptor suppressor. My hairline is absolutely protected and the hair is stronger

What is the suppressor?

 

[HairCook]

They probably did it wrong. I don’t know their regiment. No I think topicals are possibly a waste of time, and Is rather take Vit K which is proven to reverse soft tissue and blood vessel calcification.
It’s not an old theory when the D/K regimen was put together in the 2010s

What you think doesnt matter. STS has proven to be effective in many case studies topically.