Finasteride causing irreversible impotence!?

[boobyinspector]

Did you read the studies I posted? There's proof that the tissue loses weight and fibroses. Is that reverrsible? Probably not.

It's possible other tissue within the penis doesn't regenerate at a normal rate due to some factors caused by finasteride. Much like when you get older your skin gets thinner due to this slowed process. But taking a rat study into consideration is questionable. I mean look at the amount of drug they give to these freaking rats, that's nowhere near what we use as humans.

gavaged with finasteride at a dose of 4.5 mg.kg[SUP]-1[/SUP].day[SUP]-1[/SUP]

Given their weight they were getting 157.5mg of finasteride a day. Give me a break. I've never had issues with my penis and I know people who have used the drug since its inception that have never had issues. So if you have some penis issues it is likely due to the NO/blood flow component.

 

[Fanjeera]

That dose is bioequivalent for humans. The drop in DHT levels is the same or even less. Besides, finasteride's effect doesn't rise with rising the dose. Why would they research toxic doses? This is study is done for us, the daily users of finasteride.
The rats don't actually weight 34,545 kg. There has to be a mistake there. More like 345,45 g. I don't have a very close contact with rats, but they sure don't look like they weigh half my weight on pictures.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22375859 -- I have the full text of this study and there the rats weigh 250--300g. The dose usen is the same in many studies, because it has been found equivalent to humans. So the argument that they're using absurd doses doesn't work.
What the rats actually received was like 1,1--1,6g of the drug, which actually may be too small of a dose, because their metabolism is many times faster. Therefore they maybe should use bigger doses and would finally get a drop in DHT same to humans as well. The humans lose 70% of their DHT, the rats lose 50%. So it's actually the opposite: the rats are given too small doses, so the effects may be even catastrophic in humans.
You are lucky and you probably just don't feel it or don't pay enough attention or don't care.
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/282/3/1496.full.pdf -- finasteride half life is only 1 HOUR in Sprague-Dawley rats. A more important question is: is finasteride a dual inhibitor of 5ar for rats? That has come out of few studies, but many still talk about 5ar2 only.

 

[boobyinspector]

I figured they were super human rats. But if a study can't bother to make correct statements, you have to question their integrity. Either way, a lot of stuff in rats does not translate in humans. This is very evident in psychopharmacology and the rats brain is very close to human brains. And the dual inhibitor issue is just another one of those points. If you don't like finasteride you don't have to take it. I have plenty of penis to spare so not worried. It's not that I am lucky, the majority of people on finasteride don't experience all the effects that people whine about in forums. Like I said I know many people who got amazing results and have been using it for a very long time with no issues. Some people however have an endocrine system that may not sit well with finasteride. The same goes in psychopharmacology they will have studies showing something happens in rats but it does not happen in the MAJORITY of humans usually just in a small subset. Some people get insane side effects with some of these psychopharmacological drugs I take and I see it in forums but it is the minority. It's just those minorities never believe it because they all gather up on the internet and think it's a global epidemic. Finasteride has been on the market for a long time now and there are lots of users. If you are really so worried take DHEA. I take DHEA and my DHT levels are actually much higher than typical finasteride users. My hair has been growing back either way because I don't think it's circulating DHT that matters but simply testosterone combining with 5-ar2 and causing some sort of inflammatory trigger. But yah once again no one is holding a gun to your head with taking finasteride. I should mention, many people have good results with minoxidil but I had the bad luck of it making my face look like an old wrinkly punching bag. I had to quit it, I don't assume this happens to everyone, I know it doesn't. We are all very different and react differently to different drugs, this isn't anything new.

 

[Fanjeera]

http://www.jbc.org/content/267/12/8577.full.pdf -- yep, it's a dual inhibitor in rats. A very nice study I found with some extensive digging.
Still, somebody has to find a way to see inside humans' penises too without cutting them off to be sure. And nothing can explain the change in my semen appearance.

 

[Quantum Cat]

change in semen appearance is one of the commonest sides. Even Merck admits that

 

[Fanjeera]

change in semen appearance is one of the commonest sides. Even Merck admits that

Yes, but why is it forever? I'm used to getting rid of the sides as I stop taking a drug, but this isn't the case with finasteride.

 

[boobyinspector]

My semen did look weird and watery at first but it went back to being thick again. I think initially it's a shock until the HPA kicks in. I wouldn't continue taking it if side effects aren't going away, even if it is something that simple. I think one mistake people make is they continue taking it with side effects that are not going away and these are the people that end up with all the serious problems. If after 1 month you still have side effects, drop it.

 

[Wuffer]

I figure decreased semen volume and change in consistency has to do with the prostate shrinking.. But even then i'm not sure. I'm not one to check out my semen frequently, but when I do it's all over the map. Usually it's normal, like it's always been. Sometimes it's watery like cream. Sometimes it's maybe 1/3rd the volume as normal, but still thick. Frequency of ejaculation seems to have no effect on quantity, even multiple times throughout the day. It's really weird.. Not sure exactly why finasteride changes this.

It's pretty much the only 'side effect' I've had from the drug, and doesn't bother me one bit.

 

[Fanjeera]

My semen did look weird and watery at first but it went back to being thick again. I think initially it's a shock until the HPA kicks in. I wouldn't continue taking it if side effects aren't going away, even if it is something that simple. I think one mistake people make is they continue taking it with side effects that are not going away and these are the people that end up with all the serious problems. If after 1 month you still have side effects, drop it.

I took it 9 days and now 3 and a half years have passed. It's still watery.

 

[boobyinspector]

Fanjeera, well you're in too deep haha. Does finasteride at 1mg/day actually decrease prostate volume though? My understanding is that 5mg was required this is why Merck set this dose. This ensured that 5-ar2 was blocked for long enough as finasteride has a short half life, but also that enough was blocked in prostate tissue. Serum DHT levels don't always coincide with lower tissue DHT. As obviously testosterone enters the tissue where the enzyme is produced locally.

 

[Quantum Cat]

I took it 9 days and now 3 and a half years have passed. It's still watery.

you took Finasteride for nine days? Are you kidding me? Permanent side effects after 9 days? The finasteride would barely have even got into your system, let alone have shrunk your prostate/vesicles.

did you read what Wuffer wrote upthread about guys taking one pill and claiming that they felt sides in a couple of hours. I agree, BS IMO.

side effects are common when first taking it, but subside if you continue, as your body adjusts. Too many times I hear of guys feeling sides at the beginning, getting freaked out, coming on here and reading the horror stories, and then stopping, therefore ruining their chances of keeping their hair. It's pretty selfish of people to deter and frighten others off finasteride without any solid facts actually, under the guise that they're on some noble crusade to stop people from lethal side effects. I'm very glad I wasn't around here when I started on finasteride.


as for having watery semen 3 years after taking finasteride for 9 days... I find that highly dubious. Were you intamitely familiar with the consistency of your semen 3 years ago? Are you sure you haven't just convinced yourself it's changed in appearance?

 

[Fanjeera]

Fanjeera, well you're in too deep haha. Does finasteride at 1mg/day actually decrease prostate volume though? My understanding is that 5mg was required this is why Merck set this dose. This ensured that 5-ar2 was blocked for long enough as finasteride has a short half life, but also that enough was blocked in prostate tissue. Serum DHT levels don't always coincide with lower tissue DHT. As obviously testosterone enters the tissue where the enzyme is produced locally.

I don't understand why whouldn't serum DHT reveal the effect in the prostate also. 5 mg lowers DHT only a little bit more than 1 mg. 5ar2 is so prevalent in the prostate, so if you take finasteride, you can be sure it's the first place where it has its effect. Here's proof: http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/r?dbs+hsdb:@term+@rn+98319-26-7
Finasteride's half life doesn't matter very much, because the small proportion that actually hits the enzyme blocks it irreversible -- finasteride is a non-competitive inhibitor. A very big part of it really flushes out of you with a day, but the inhibiting goes on for a few days until the 5ar2-finasteride complex is dead.
And even if it doesn't work on the prostate, nobody has yet studied the 5ar2-rich seminal vesicles, which give 2/3 of the semen and the viscose fructose-rich part. It probably has more to do with the ejaculation distance also, which for me has became shorter.

you took Finasteride for nine days? Are you kidding me? Permanent side effects after 9 days? The finasteride would barely have even got into your system, let alone have shrunk your prostate/vesicles.

did you read what Wuffer wrote upthread about guys taking one pill and claiming that they felt sides in a couple of hours. I agree, BS IMO.

side effects are common when first taking it, but subside if you continue, as your body adjusts. Too many times I hear of guys feeling sides at the beginning, getting freaked out, coming on here and reading the horror stories, and then stopping, therefore ruining their chances of keeping their hair. It's pretty selfish of people to deter and frighten others off finasteride without any solid facts actually, under the guise that they're on some noble crusade to stop people from lethal side effects. I'm very glad I wasn't around here when I started on finasteride.


as for having watery semen 3 years after taking finasteride for 9 days... I find that highly dubious. Were you intamitely familiar with the consistency of your semen 3 years ago? Are you sure you haven't just convinced yourself it's changed in appearance?

The finasteride gets into my system the day I take it. http://books.google.ee/books?id=v0Q...cc4ykDF_-F3h8&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false (page 400) -- DHT drop after a single dose of finasteride. The effect lasts for more than a week, though, 99% of the drug is out of your system. Finasteride is not a combetitive inhibitor: the moment it gets near the 5ar2 molecul, it clamps and never lets go. The difference between 5 mg and 1 mg is so small -- I'm pretty sure there are not many differences in tissue DHT levels either.
Of course, the change in my semen didn't happen right away, but after a few days of taking it. Perhaps 4?
And yes, I have been checking my semen every time since then hoping and wanting it so badly to finally go back to normal. It just doesn't: it's less viscose, it has transparent parts in it, it's lesser in volume and it doesn't fly as far. It's permanent. And I even believe it to be more due to seminal vesicle atrophy.
And again: even if the volume of the organ is normal, there might be structural changes in the tissues, which leads to obstructions in the seminal plasma ducts, perhaps, or some other type of pathology. I remember a study that proved this.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8846625 -- "A single dose of finasteride suppresses serum DHT levels for up to 4 days, longer than would be expected from the serum terminal elimination half-life (t1/2z) of the drug: this is probably due to the high affinity that finasteride has for the 5 alpha-reductase enzyme."

 

[boobyinspector]

Finasteride's half life doesn't matter very much, because the small proportion that actually hits the enzyme blocks it irreversible -- finasteride is a non-competitive inhibitor. A very big part of it really flushes out of you with a day, but the inhibiting goes on for a few days until the 5ar2-finasteride complex is dead.
And even if it doesn't work on the prostate, nobody has yet studied the 5ar2-rich seminal vesicles, which give 2/3 of the semen and the viscose fructose-rich part. It probably has more to do with the ejaculation distance also, which for me has became shorter.

See that sounds good in theory but I know people who took finasteride once every other day and didn't get good results but as soon as they went to every day they got good results. This would at least suggest that tissues regenerate 5-ar2 at a quick enough rate than what we would expect. I'd love to take it once every 4 days, I'd save big money! I'm just scared because my results have been so good, I don't want to regress. Have you had your hormones tested in relation to the semen problems you have? Have you tried T therapy?

 

[Fanjeera]

My testosterone usually comes in the few upper numbers in the reference value and once it even was a lot higher that the reference value. My hormones are fine and there's nothing clinically important wrong with my semen. Some men have always had this kind semen and it's normal for them, but I can't stand the change. I'm used to better looking semen. The doctors don't consider it a problem.
I like to believe what the science and the studies tell us, not base my knowledge on a few friends or forum users who tell how they think they feel.

 

[boobyinspector]

Sure I believe studies, but if you see how often studies contradict each other simply because the method of assessment was changed it makes you overly cautious. Given that Merck's studies showed that daily use gave the best results and at 1mg, then that's what you should follow. It may not be as simple as dht. There's studies showing that less finasteride blocks just as much DHT, but yet Merck found that 1mg was the best for hair regrowth. And if you read the actual studies rather than just abstracts you will see how flawed a lot of them are. The coefficient of variance is huge on even the merck studies. Bioavailability was as low as 16%. So if you're that person with bad luck who only gets 16% bioavailability you will probably not respond and think finasteride is a scam. Anyways, the likeliness of 9 days of finasteride making a permanent change without affecting your HPA is very unlikely. It is more than likely psychosomatic, but I won't argue because I really am only taking a guess as I do not live in your shoes.

 

[Fanjeera]

Thinking of HPA axis is going a bit far. I doubt finasteride affects it a lot. It's as simple as that: atrophy in the seminal vesicles and prostate (because why else would you see difference in your semen appearance!?), which just stays to some extenct, because the regeneration cannot make the tissue 100% identical to how it was.

 

[Quantum Cat]

how would one go about getting the prostate/seminal vesciles checked to see what condition they're in. Is this something a doctor could do, with a scan or something?

 

[Fanjeera]

Ultrasound through the rectum. But this only describes the volume. Actually a biopsy should be made, but that would be in experiment conditions. And I haven't heard a seminal vesicle biopsy. Too weak of an organ to do such a thing probably.

 

[boobyinspector]

So you won't ever get a job as a semen model, big deal.

 

[Fanjeera]

It's just the fact that I got absolutely nothing good from the drug. It's just a matter of 9 days, like you said and it's unbelievable. That's what drives me mad. There are a lot men with this kind of semen and it's not a problem of its own. The big change due to such a stupid little mistake is unacceptable to me.