You can get fina/minoxidil solution from here if you are in the uk https://www.minoxidilmax.com/products
or make your own
Finasteride Microdosing Test (0.033 Mg Ed)
- Thread starter Timpson12
- Start date
You can get fina/minoxidil solution from here if you are in the uk https://www.minoxidilmax.com/products
or make your own
- Reaction score
- 27
Does it work?
Hey guys, i have a few questions comments and discussion items regarding topical finasteride. P-3074 etc..
First, I saw somewhere earlier in the thread that people were discussing the dosing used in the Polichem P-3074 study.
The 4 doses used were 100μl, 200μl,300μl,400μl
With a .25% concentration, the finasteride concentration would be .25mg, .5mg, .75mg, and 1mg
Here is an excerpt from the study:
Methods: Two randomized, parallel-group studies were conducted. Study I: 18 men received 1 mL (2.275 mg) P-3074, applied to the scalp once a day (o.d.) or twice a day (b.i.d), or 1 mg oral tablet o.d. for 1 week. Study II: 32 men received P-3074 at the dose of 100 (0.2275 mg), 200 (0.455 mg), 300 (0.6285 mg), or 400 (0.91 mg) μL or the vehicle o.d. for 1 week. Scalp and serum DHT and serum testosterone were evaluated at baseline and treatment end.
Results: Change from baseline in scalp DHT was -70% for P-3074 o.d. and approx. -50% for P-3074 b.i.d. and the tablet. Serum DHT decreased by 60 - 70%. The doses of 100 and 200 μL P-3074 resulted in a -47/-52% scalp DHT reduction, similar to the 300 and 400 μL doses (i.e., -37/-54%). A -5.6% inhibition was observed for the vehicle. Serum DHT was reduced by only -24/-26% with 100 and 200 μL P-3074 and by -44/-48% with 300 and 400 μL P-3074. No relevant changes occurred for serum testosterone.
Conclusions: The novel finasteride 0.25% solution applied o.d. at the doses of 100 and 200 μL results in an appropriate inhibition of scalp DHT potentially minimizing the untoward sexual side-effects linked to a systemic DHT reduction.
So, here is the burning question I am having ... Actually two questions
First, they are pretty much confirming the actual finasteride amounts in Study II:
Question 1: How do you give men a 100μl (.1ml) dose? That's 2 drops from a dropper since there are 20 drops in a 1ml (100μl is .1ml) - How is that supposed to cover the scalp area?
Question 2: Also, would someone experience the same effects if the concentration was lowered by 1/5th to .05% but the dosage was increase to 500μl or .5ml? In other words, I would want to cover the scalp with more of the vehicle / solution. Does the concentration of the finasteride have anything to do with skin permeation as long as the same amount of the finasteride is delivered? Ultimately, I just want to get .25mg of finasteride on the scalp.
Question 3: Does the DHT inhibition relate to the precise areas of the scalp the solution is applied to, does it spread at all, or are the effects more systemic?
If you give .25% solution in a 1ml spray, you will be giving 2.5mg if finasteride, which I surely do not want.
Any input and guidance would be appreciated. Thank guys
First, I saw somewhere earlier in the thread that people were discussing the dosing used in the Polichem P-3074 study.
The 4 doses used were 100μl, 200μl,300μl,400μl
With a .25% concentration, the finasteride concentration would be .25mg, .5mg, .75mg, and 1mg
Here is an excerpt from the study:
Methods: Two randomized, parallel-group studies were conducted. Study I: 18 men received 1 mL (2.275 mg) P-3074, applied to the scalp once a day (o.d.) or twice a day (b.i.d), or 1 mg oral tablet o.d. for 1 week. Study II: 32 men received P-3074 at the dose of 100 (0.2275 mg), 200 (0.455 mg), 300 (0.6285 mg), or 400 (0.91 mg) μL or the vehicle o.d. for 1 week. Scalp and serum DHT and serum testosterone were evaluated at baseline and treatment end.
Results: Change from baseline in scalp DHT was -70% for P-3074 o.d. and approx. -50% for P-3074 b.i.d. and the tablet. Serum DHT decreased by 60 - 70%. The doses of 100 and 200 μL P-3074 resulted in a -47/-52% scalp DHT reduction, similar to the 300 and 400 μL doses (i.e., -37/-54%). A -5.6% inhibition was observed for the vehicle. Serum DHT was reduced by only -24/-26% with 100 and 200 μL P-3074 and by -44/-48% with 300 and 400 μL P-3074. No relevant changes occurred for serum testosterone.
Conclusions: The novel finasteride 0.25% solution applied o.d. at the doses of 100 and 200 μL results in an appropriate inhibition of scalp DHT potentially minimizing the untoward sexual side-effects linked to a systemic DHT reduction.
So, here is the burning question I am having ... Actually two questions
First, they are pretty much confirming the actual finasteride amounts in Study II:
Question 1: How do you give men a 100μl (.1ml) dose? That's 2 drops from a dropper since there are 20 drops in a 1ml (100μl is .1ml) - How is that supposed to cover the scalp area?
Question 2: Also, would someone experience the same effects if the concentration was lowered by 1/5th to .05% but the dosage was increase to 500μl or .5ml? In other words, I would want to cover the scalp with more of the vehicle / solution. Does the concentration of the finasteride have anything to do with skin permeation as long as the same amount of the finasteride is delivered? Ultimately, I just want to get .25mg of finasteride on the scalp.
Question 3: Does the DHT inhibition relate to the precise areas of the scalp the solution is applied to, does it spread at all, or are the effects more systemic?
If you give .25% solution in a 1ml spray, you will be giving 2.5mg if finasteride, which I surely do not want.
Any input and guidance would be appreciated. Thank guys
- Reaction score
- 25
1 week is not long enough to evaluate serum DHT decrease so it's a crap study
- Reaction score
- 91
Exactly this. The study is useless. Serum DHT levels take longer than 1 week after starting a low dose 5ar inhibitor to reach equilibrium. They should have waiting a month before taking readings.
Interesting. But to the point about having a lower concentration but putting more of the formula on the scalp, would 500ml with .05% be the same as 250ml at .1%?
- Reaction score
- 91
Don't know but my guess is halfing the concentration but doubling the dose probably will not affect results very much.
- Reaction score
- 481
You can of course increase the amount of vehicle to dilute finasteride to make it easier to spread on the scalp (i.e. use a 0,025% solution rather 0,25%). There is no way to spread 0,1 mL evenly on a scalp.
Questions 1 and 2 boils down to the same issue. If the vehicle is effective, diluting finasteride should not affect the efficiency of the treatment.
The answer probably lies in between. The solution has a systemic effect which will be evenly spread on the scalp (and the rest of your body). It also has a strong local effect (cf. Polichem study which shows scalp and serum DHT reductions are uneven) which we don't know how really "local" is (as in, if it spreads within cm2 in your scalp, on your whole scalp etc.). It is therefore advisable to try to cover the whole shedding areas on your scalp when applying this treatment.
This is true. You need to measure accumulation.
- Reaction score
- 91
All they did in that study was show what we already knew. The slope of the DHT vs time “ramp down” line is shallower when you start taking a lower dose because the drug needs to gradually accumulate in your system. However, the end point is the same. Eventually the 100ul and 200ul groups would reach the same level of systemic DHT inhibition as the higher dose groups.
A true micro dose is probably required to ensure that finasteride does not accumulate in your system in sufficient quantities to inhibit systemic DHT. Probably that dosage is around 0.05-0.15 mg/day topically but that is just my guess based on the results of the mozzarella study. However at those dosages, effectiveness is not guaranteed. The results of the mozzarella study were pretty marginal... 20% reduction is shedding at the 1.5 yr mark. Whereas most people who take the full oral dose report a 90% reduction in shedding at some point during the first year of treatment.
This all doesn’t mean standard-dose topical finasteride is pointless though. There may still be benefits compared to oral finasteride such as increased effectiveness or decreased sides due to the fact that less of the finasteride itself goes systemic (can’t remember which study showed it but even high dose topical finasteride results in like 16x less finasteride in the blood stream compared to oral).
Last edited:
Hi guys,
I need some help here I would like to start 0.05mg topical finasteride a day with minoxidil as I got sides on oral one.
since I have no more finasteride prescription I would like to buy essengen-plus and mix it with dual gen 5.
essengen plus is 0,5mg of finasteride per ml so to reduce it to 0,05mg I would need to mix 12ml of essengen plus with 48ml of dual gen 5.
Just I wonder if I can mix finasteride + azelaic acid and also both are using to different vehicles one is with PG and the other one with glycerine.
thanks for your help,
I need some help here I would like to start 0.05mg topical finasteride a day with minoxidil as I got sides on oral one.
since I have no more finasteride prescription I would like to buy essengen-plus and mix it with dual gen 5.
essengen plus is 0,5mg of finasteride per ml so to reduce it to 0,05mg I would need to mix 12ml of essengen plus with 48ml of dual gen 5.
Just I wonder if I can mix finasteride + azelaic acid and also both are using to different vehicles one is with PG and the other one with glycerine.
thanks for your help,
Since the half life of Finasteride is about 5 hours, in 24 hours, it has essentially gone through 4 or 5 half lifes. Does it build up in tissue and that's why simply measuring serum finasteride and DHT levels does not accurately gauge its longer term inhibition?
Also, Polichem's P-3074 formula, how they make it, and the proportions are listed in their patent, which is publicly available on google docs. The only challenge, which is not too difficult, is getting pharmaceutical grade hydroxoypropyl chitosin (which you can buy online from other countries for about 100-130/kg.
The patent goes as far as showing exactly how to make it, what proportions, and formulations including finasteride, dutasteride, spironolactone, minixidil, etc. I was surprised to find this Doctor.
That said, a lower dose with a chitosin which suspends the drug on the scalp, as opposed to allowing for a spike in serum levels, may be the answer we are all looking for.
Has anybody seen their patent?
Also, Polichem's P-3074 formula, how they make it, and the proportions are listed in their patent, which is publicly available on google docs. The only challenge, which is not too difficult, is getting pharmaceutical grade hydroxoypropyl chitosin (which you can buy online from other countries for about 100-130/kg.
The patent goes as far as showing exactly how to make it, what proportions, and formulations including finasteride, dutasteride, spironolactone, minixidil, etc. I was surprised to find this Doctor.
That said, a lower dose with a chitosin which suspends the drug on the scalp, as opposed to allowing for a spike in serum levels, may be the answer we are all looking for.
Has anybody seen their patent?
Polichem's P-3074 patent (Public)
Here is a link to the google document of the patent - Click on the link to download the PDF - It's much more readable:
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2010015556A1/en -
Download the PDF at - https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/50/11/bc/dc97bfe2ca2c23/WO2010015556A1.pdf
Here is a link to the google document of the patent - Click on the link to download the PDF - It's much more readable:
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2010015556A1/en -
Download the PDF at - https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/50/11/bc/dc97bfe2ca2c23/WO2010015556A1.pdf
@Timpson12 any progress regarding dosage vs sides ?
