Folexen: New Hair Loss Treatment based on S-Equol

[Folexen]

Hi Aks20. Equol has an advantage in that it is naturally produced by some people, for instance about half of Japanese people are able to produce it. It's not exogenic in the way that 5AR inhibitors are.

There isn't evidence of bone density issues in Japan, in fact Japanese have about 40% fewer hip fractures than western people (Ross PD, et al. Am J Epidemiol 1991;133:801-9). This isn't direct proof, since Japanese people probably have other lifestyle factors that contribute to bone health.

There is no reason to believe that S-equol would be positively correlated with lower bone density.

We undertook a small evaluation of efficacy, the results are tabulated here: http://folexen.com/public/S-equol_eval_10mg_oral_BD_summary.zip

There have been some studies into the safety of S-equol, here is one that you might find interesting:
Yee S, et. al. Acute and subchronic toxicity and genotoxicity of SE5-OH, an equol-rich product produced by Lactococcus garvieae. Food Chem Toxicol 2008;46:2713-20.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18554770

 

[2020]

quick link to the study:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnIeGMRtsCrhdHB6LUt3QzFOb1BKWDJnRW0yMmFqd1E


how much did it cost you to conduct that study on 45 people?

 

[zeroes]

what do you mean part of the problem? DHT interaction with hair follicles IS THE ONLY PROBLEM. Whatever happens after is irrelevant since it wouldn't have happened if DHT wasn't there.

Depending on the dosage, it will have the same results as finasteride/dutasteride with zero side effects and the DHT blocking effect lasts forever unlike finasteride/dutasteride.
If you were to stop using equol after 5 years, you would start losing hair at a normal speed instead of massive sheds and norwood losses with finasteride/dutasteride. Gains are permanent.

As far as I know, minor regrowth is pretty much what the current treatments can do except that equol may do it better and with no side effects

If DHT is the only problem why do castrated men fail to regrow their hair? Why do they use minoxidil to help regrow hair?

 

[2020]

If DHT is the only problem why do castrated men fail to regrow their hair? Why do they use minoxidil to help regrow hair?

lack of progenitor cells? Just because you remove DHT and avoid any further "damage", doesn't mean that follicles will automatically stimulate themselves and regrow back to full size... blocking DHT would only prevent further damage which is exactly what finasteride and dutasteride does.
Wouldn't you say that equol would be a much better alternative to finasteride/dutasteride?

 

[zeroes]

lack of progenitor cells? Just because you remove DHT and avoid any further "damage", doesn't mean that follicles will automatically stimulate themselves and regrow back to full size... blocking DHT would only prevent further damage which is exactly what finasteride and dutasteride does.
Wouldn't you say that equol would be a much better alternative to finasteride/dutasteride?

Don't know. How much DHT are we blocking? I wouldn't have thought blocking a high amount of DHT would be safe or a good idea.

 

[2020]

Don't know. How much DHT are we blocking? I wouldn't have thought blocking a high amount of DHT would be safe or a good idea.

for the love of god... we're already past this. > 90% of your DHT is already being gobbled up by your own natural androgen binding proteins. Do you feel the side effects?

Equol has no side effects. I know Folexen wants to play it safe and claim that "yeah it's MOST LIKELY safe", but I'm confident enough to say that it's 100% safe. Send me a kilo of that stuff. I'll take 1000 mg a day just to prove you all wrong.

 

[Folexen]

quick link to the study:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnIeGMRtsCrhdHB6LUt3QzFOb1BKWDJnRW0yMmFqd1E

how much did it cost you to conduct that study on 45 people?

Thanks for posting it on Google Docs, that's neat.

The study didn't cost much.. cost of materials plus time to interview subjects & make examinations, plus their travel expenses.

It would be great to do a large scale multi-year study in future to provide a more extensive data set.

 

[zeroes]

for the love of god... we're already past this. > 90% of your DHT is already being gobbled up by your own natural androgen binding proteins. Do you feel the side effects?

Equol has no side effects. I know Folexen wants to play it safe and claim that "yeah it's MOST LIKELY safe", but I'm confident enough to say that it's 100% safe. Send me a kilo of that stuff. I'll take 1000 mg a day just to prove you all wrong.

Drinking too much water can kill you how can a manufactured product like equol be safer?

 

[#NoCure4thisSickness]

Dear Folexen, this is a very interesting product, which many of us would love to use if it is truly side effect free, but please provide some more information.

I fail to see how taking DHT out of the equation will lead to less side effects? Granted, Propecia is far more dangerous in that 5Alpha R reduction means that 5 AlphaRs which are used all over the place are also out of the equation..

But DHT itself is critical to male sexual function, and is also linked to stuff like bone density in males. Less DHT = less sexual function and osteoporesis.

Have there been tests conducted on S-equol re: safety and what were the results?

Also, please provide some evidence/more information that DHT blocking by itself is not dangerous.

Thanks,
Aks

sawce?

 

[JDW]

If this is better than current treatments why wouldn't the big pharmaceuticals be pursuing it? even if it interferes with their existing products, they would be making more sales out of a new product which is superior! superior product = superior sales.

 

[Aks20]

sawce?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11932266
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=...#v=onepage&q=DHT MALE SEXUAL FUNCTION&f=false
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1586
Counterclaims by a poster:http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=91016

Point is Propecia is so dangerous because it both drops DHT by 70% and it does so by killing 5 Alpha Reductase 1 etc. The latter is used by many other pathways, and not just Conversion of T to DHT.

Now, Follexens argument stems around equol is in Japanese etc so its not exogenic and can be safe. Well fine, but they may have adapted to it over centuries and millenia. You and I whose bodies are not adapted to it, will still see it as a foreign substance and dropping DHT by significant levels may prove a problem.

This is about DHT and bone density: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8853853

It would suck to have hair but with osteoporosis.

The point is it does have an effect on BMD, e.g. http://www.modernmedicine.com/moder.../detail/696023?contextCategoryId=40243&ref=25

Where use of DHT actually decreased BMD in the spine!

So...i really don't know what to say...! But that its still a bit risky IMO. I would like Follexen to explain the DHT drop mechanism safety issue in more detail.

- - - Updated - - -

for the love of god... we're already past this. > 90% of your DHT is already being gobbled up by your own natural androgen binding proteins. Do you feel the side effects?

Equol has no side effects. I know Folexen wants to play it safe and claim that "yeah it's MOST LIKELY safe", but I'm confident enough to say that it's 100% safe. Send me a kilo of that stuff. I'll take 1000 mg a day just to prove you all wrong.

Then how do you explain the side effects with Propecia?

I don't get your statement about 90% of DHT being gobbled up by our own androgen binding proteins. The point is that the 10% which remains is critical right? Of this, ok, so 3 mg drops it by 15%. Thats 85% still available. 10 mg drops it by some 45% overall, and that means that only 55% is left to be utilized. Now wont that make a difference to all the different functions that require DHT?

I note Follexen said androgen receptors for DHT are mostly in the prostate and hair. The former is the problem. As prostate is the core of our sexual well being. Erectile Dysfunction, Vascular diseases etc are all occurring in finasteride because of drastically lowered DHT levels, thats the logic anyhow. Lower 5 Alpha levels are hitting brain channels.

In the case of Follexen, at least the first is still an issue, is it not?

Please explain..

 

[Aks20]

Check this on DHT and its uses..

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/textthread.cfm?catid=10&threadid=91016&filtmsgid=770364

 

[abcdefg]

What studies show us the effects of too much free S-equol I mean surely those molecules must do something if they dont bind to DHT do they all just get eliminated from the body naturally? Is this substance toxic in large amounts and how much crosses that thresh hold? If this removed all DHT wouldnt that also cause problems if the prostate needs DHT or other parts of the body require DHT? It seems its effects would still be similar to finasteride.

 

[2020]

Now, Follexens argument stems around equol is in Japanese etc so its not exogenic and can be safe. Well fine, but they may have adapted to it over centuries and millenia. You and I whose bodies are not adapted to it, will still see it as a foreign substance and dropping DHT by significant levels may prove a problem.

europeans can produce it too...

Then how do you explain the side effects with Propecia?

hormone imbalance caused by excess T converted into something else. People at propeciahelp.com get it why don't you?

- - - Updated - - -

ok so you people have no problem taking finasteride and dutasteride which lower your DHT levels below castrate levels but with equol somehow that's going to cause problems? Side effects come from excess estrogen or some hormone imbalance that's caused by 5AR blockers. Equol won't have that problem.

If you have body hair, YOU HAVE PLENTY OF BIOLOGICALLY ACTIVE DHT!

By the way - did you know that 5AR deficient people are IMMUNE TO ALL ANDROGEN DRIVEN PROBLEMS SUCH AS PROSTATE CANCER?

- - - Updated - - -

If this is better than current treatments why wouldn't the big pharmaceuticals be pursuing it? even if it interferes with their existing products, they would be making more sales out of a new product which is superior! superior product = superior sales.

cancer makes more money.... people with prostate problems have the same issue -> finasteride and dutasteride wear off after some time. You can't suppresses DHT by blocking 5AR for a long time

 

[Aks20]

hormone imbalance caused by excess T converted into something else. People at propeciahelp.com get it why don't you?

Can you point us to some threads saying this thing?
As far as I know, there seems to be no one answer to what causes propecia problems
Its spread between:
1. Lack of DHT
2. Lack of 5 AlphaR2
3. Hormone Imbalance caused by actions of 1 and 2

Now, my fear is that equol may end up doing the same thing as Propecia, at least as far as points 1 and 3 are concerned. Not as far as point 2 is concerned. But 1 and 3 are issues.

ok so you people have no problem taking finasteride and dutasteride which lower your DHT levels below castrate levels but with equol somehow that's going to cause problems? Side effects come from excess estrogen or some hormone imbalance that's caused by 5AR blockers. Equol won't have that problem.

I have a problem taking finasteride. as well. I developed sides on it. That is the reason I am asking about equol. In two days of taking finasteride, I developed immediate sides and that too on very low doses (0.25 mg) - it was a bit shocking to see how powerful the darn thing is and the flat dosing graphs etc actually worked.

If you have body hair, YOU HAVE PLENTY OF BIOLOGICALLY ACTIVE DHT!

Point is how much will 2.5mg -10mg equol bind and what effect will that have on our bodily functions? And second, by when will that binding free up? I am assuming 2-3 days or even a week. It took me 1 week, plus 3 days to get back to my pre finasteride state

I also dont get this point or claim that since T is being converted to DHT and we are just binding DHT the body will be fine with it. I mean, look basically the body will judge how much DHT is being made by whether the androgen receptors are full. If they show up empty, more T/DHT will be produced, right. Thats sort of one of the reasons for 3, the runaway train syndrome caused by finasteride where T levels start going haywire.

Thanks for your answers in advance.

 

[Aks20]

June 1, 2010

The Plot Thickens, Along With The Hair, When You Mess With Dihydrotestosterone

http://blog.alanjacobsmd.com/alan-j...r-when-you-mess-with-dihydrotestosterone.html

As I involve myself in the biology underlying the finasteride and post-finasteride-associated hypogonadal syndrome and parallel "brain fog" syndrome many men experience, I have focused on the metabolism of dihydrotestosterone (DHT), the hormone that finasteride inhibits by virtue of its blockage of the 5-alpha reductase enzyme that normally converts testosterone to DHT (along with several other reactions it normally does that form potent neuroactive anti-anxiety and seizure preventing hormones in the brain).

Moreover, I have written here about the role of estrogen in the brains of women (e.g. cognition, neuroprotection) and the fact that we men need estrogen in our brains also. We get it by converting testosterone to estrogen in brain cells by a different enzyme called aromatase. One might think these two pathways for testosterone conversion, one to DHT and one to estrogen, are separate and distinct. Interestingly, several brain areas important for controlling male sexual behavior use estrogen derived from testosterone.

When a man takes finasteride to block DHT and save his hair, he is likely unaware of the complexity of this hormone's actions involving sexual behavior, stress responses, cognition and more. However, a study I recently read, Handa, RJ et al. Hormones and Behavior 53 (2008) 741-752, describes an alternative pathway for androgen regulation of brain function by estrogen receptors triggered by metabolites of DHT. In other words DHT, 10 times more potent than testosterone, can itself be converted to compounds that bind estrogen receptors (ERbeta) but are not estrogen.

One of these, called 3-alpha Diol, is also a neuroactive steroid that enhances the inhibitory compound GABA in the brain (like benzodiazepines and barbituates). Another, called 3-beta Diol, can act through estrogen receptors to decrease anxiety and regulate the cortisol system's response to stress.

Without going into too much detail here, the important point is that DHT is involved in a number of metabolic pathways in the brain that create androgen-related and estrogen-related compounds that have effects on all these areas of behavior, some as promoters and others as inhibitors, some at androgen sites and others at estrogen sites, and, in at least a subset of men, interfering with this complex web of reactions by blocking DHT, may bring a lot of unwanted extra effects along with the preservation of hair.

 

[The Natural]

Good information, thank you. I wouldn't take Propecia even if they were giving it away for free on the street corner.

 

[2020]

Can you point us to some threads saying this thing?
As far as I know, there seems to be no one answer to what causes propecia problems
Its spread between:
1. Lack of DHT
2. Lack of 5 AlphaR2
3. Hormone Imbalance caused by actions of 1 and 2

It's number 3.

Straight from Wikipedia:

Inhibition of 5α-reductase results in decreased production of DHT, increased levels of testosterone, and, perhaps, increased levels of estradiol. Gynecomastia is a possible side-effect of 5α-reductase inhibition.

also:

Finasteride alters levels of T, DHT, FSH, LH significantly
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=50

Finasteride downregulates the Androgen Receptor (AR)
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=512

Finasteride decreases DHEA-S (adrenals), increases SHBG in women (thus likely men, too?). Also decreased Total/Free Testosterone
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1057

Inhibition of Androstenedione 5alpha-reduction by Finasteride
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2126

.... goes on and on. Read more about it here:
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=8


I'm not bashing finasteride here. I personally took it and experienced ZERO problems with vast majority of men being able to tolerate it as well.

My point is that your body is definitely doing some "adjusting" to make up for all that missing 5AR2 and excess T.

Now, my fear is that equol may end up doing the same thing as Propecia, at least as far as points 1 and 3 are concerned. Not as far as point 2 is concerned. But 1 and 3 are issues.

it won't... equol inhibits DHT naturally similarly how SHBG does of which you have plenty of with women having even more of it. It's totally safe.

I have a problem taking finasteride. as well. I developed sides on it. That is the reason I am asking about equol. In two days of taking finasteride, I developed immediate sides and that too on very low doses (0.25 mg) - it was a bit shocking to see how powerful the darn thing is and the flat dosing graphs etc actually worked.

Then I'm guessing you're the perfect candidate for this since you have no other options because every other "DHT blocker" deals only with reducing 5AR instead of DHT directly....

Point is how much will 2.5mg -10mg equol bind and what effect will that have on our bodily functions? And second, by when will that binding free up? I am assuming 2-3 days or even a week. It took me 1 week, plus 3 days to get back to my pre finasteride state

don't know about the first part. Probably not enough depending on how aggressive your male pattern baldness is.

I also dont get this point or claim that since T is being converted to DHT and we are just binding DHT the body will be fine with it. I mean, look basically the body will judge how much DHT is being made by whether the androgen receptors are full. If they show up empty, more T/DHT will be produced, right. Thats sort of one of the reasons for 3, the runaway train syndrome caused by finasteride where T levels start going haywire.

even though you have tons of sex hormones, only a tiny fraction of them will be "available" due to most of it being bound by SHBG/Albumin.... equol will do the same.

most balding men probably have an EXCESSIVE levels of BIOLOGICALLY ACTIVE DHT anyways....

 

[Ted82]

http://www.ehow.com/facts_6912387_functions-dht_.html

"Estrogen Inhibition
DHT inhibits estrogen in three ways. It directly hinders estrogen's ability to act on tissues. It inhibits the aromatase enzyme that produces estrogen from other androgen components. And DHT decreases the secretion of gonadotropin, from which the raw materials for estrogen production are derived."

Any input about this?

 

[WillNotLetItHappen]

Honestly I would give this a try. It breaks down to about 24 EUR per month, as the exchange rate is quite favorable. It is not cheap, but if I get to keep my hair it would be worth it. I understand that this needs to get some momentum before the price could be lowered. It certainly will if it works.
There is science behind it, which I haven't all read and I'm also not the audience for those papers. I'm worried that the dose isn't going to do enough..

I'm 1yr on Propecia and Rogaine and am going through a shed (I'm actually constantly shedding, so I don't even know if I can call this a shed). Still losing >100 hairs a day with some improvement in the front and unsure/worse results on the vertex. Would this be a reasonable addition to my regimen?