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Just got my d2 pen so from what I understand the depth should be no more than 1 mm at maximum speed right?
Follica Microneedling Protocol Patent Disclosed
- Thread starter benjt2
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Dude. Folks get results out of rollers so I don't think it matters that much if you adapt the pattern and timing to what seems to be working for most. D2 is better at wounding as the inventor shows on his website. But that's about it. All the other pend look equal to me.
ajax
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I dont know if this has been shared already but his micro needling experiment on mice definitely backs up that the correct depth of the holes makes a big difference... So whilst Folica doesn't seem all that deep, it might not actually work as well if you go deeper?
'
Optimizing the length and cycle of microneedle stimulation
In the 10-cycle group, visual inspection of the 0.25 mm and 0.5 mm groups 3 weeks after the first microneedle stimulation revealed more prominent hair growth than that in the 0.15 mm and 1.0 mm groups (Fig. 1A). In the 0.5 mm length group, the mice treated with 10 cycles revealed more prominent hair growth 3 weeks after the first microneedle stimulation than did the 3, 6, and 13 cycle groups (Fig. 1B). Therefore, 0.25 mm/10 cycles and 0.5 mm/10 cycles were considered the optimal conditions for microneedle simulation.'
'
Optimizing the length and cycle of microneedle stimulation
In the 10-cycle group, visual inspection of the 0.25 mm and 0.5 mm groups 3 weeks after the first microneedle stimulation revealed more prominent hair growth than that in the 0.15 mm and 1.0 mm groups (Fig. 1A). In the 0.5 mm length group, the mice treated with 10 cycles revealed more prominent hair growth 3 weeks after the first microneedle stimulation than did the 3, 6, and 13 cycle groups (Fig. 1B). Therefore, 0.25 mm/10 cycles and 0.5 mm/10 cycles were considered the optimal conditions for microneedle simulation.'
I'm actually going to try 2.5mm for 15 minutes later today. I'm not looking forward to it. I can tolerate pain, but I might need to get some lidocaine for this one. There is a small ridge, at the top of my head, and it hurts like hell to do that one part. I've gotten noticeably stronger regrowth on that ridge than to the left or the right of it. I'm not sure what it means, if anything, but maybe if I go deep enough that it hurts that much everywhere the rest will catch up.
ajax
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Yes sorry, some people seem to be doing daily needling too at a less painful depth, I'm guessing to help with minoxidil absorption
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That's not all. The wound healing response still happens because we do it until there is redness so maybe it's double whammy of increased absorption and growth factors.
ajax
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I searched through all my old posts on here from 15 years ago hoping to find the pics I posted to compare to my current balding, but sadly the pics aren't displaying... However I saw things that I'd forgotten about, like how at 3 months on dutasteride I was stressed about a major shed, and then at 7 months saying I'd seen no regrowth....then finally at 9-12 months seeing really positive results.
So I think it's important to remember with this needling idea that it'll take a long time for anyone to see results if this works... I'll be starting as soon as my Derminator arrives, but will remind myself that I won't see any results even if the approach is successful for a long time.
So I think it's important to remember with this needling idea that it'll take a long time for anyone to see results if this works... I'll be starting as soon as my Derminator arrives, but will remind myself that I won't see any results even if the approach is successful for a long time.
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Off topic but whats your full regimen
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Yeah I was about to quit dutasteride and switch back to finasteride even though there is positive improvement in the front. I posted on the microneedling thread and a poster there recommended that I stick it out for a total of two years. Crown is going through a shed or just finished a shed because the front has already started giving results.
I think we get impatient after looking at amazing 3 month, 6 month and even a year results and yet the moderator of reddit tressless had result very late and then kept improving even at the 10 year mark. A few other posters said they showed great improvement after 2 years!
I decided to stick it out for one year and three months.
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KETO & NEEDLING
We really don't want Ketoconalzole topicals systemic -
but w/ needling we might do just that...
I try to avoid it by reducing 2% Keto Shampoo (2%SH) and Cream (2%CR) B/A needling as follows:
-1 day = last 2%CR (end of normal regimen);
-6 h = last 2%SH;
+0 h = soap wash + needling @FOLLICA;
+1 day = 2%SH @5min before rinse;
+2 days = 2%SH @30min;
+3 days = 2%SH @30min + 2%CR straight after (start of normal regimen);
What is your KETO-NEEDLING regimen / recommendation?
We really don't want Ketoconalzole topicals systemic -
but w/ needling we might do just that...
I try to avoid it by reducing 2% Keto Shampoo (2%SH) and Cream (2%CR) B/A needling as follows:
-1 day = last 2%CR (end of normal regimen);
-6 h = last 2%SH;
+0 h = soap wash + needling @FOLLICA;
+1 day = 2%SH @5min before rinse;
+2 days = 2%SH @30min;
+3 days = 2%SH @30min + 2%CR straight after (start of normal regimen);
What is your KETO-NEEDLING regimen / recommendation?
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ajax
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Nothing at the moment but was on dutasteride + Min + Keto shampoo for most of the last 15 years.
I dropped dutasteride twice when trying to conceive but due to two miscarriages was off it for a few years, on finasteride for some of it. finasteride wasn't half as good as dutasteride which really REALLY thickened up my hair and I had some decent regrowth in the crown.
Unfortunately I had some blood tests not long ago and my liver count was sky high, not 100% sure why but the only thing I could put it down to was dutasteride, so came off it about 3 months ago and also stopped minoxidil.
Liver count is ok now so going on finasteride plus micro needling and minoxidil + keto once my pills and Derminator arrives
ajax
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SYSTEMIC KETO
Long-Term systemic exposure can impair your Liver -
& given your Liver problems, be extra careful with Keto Topicals & Needling...
https://www.nursingtimes.net/fungal-infection-drug-banned-due-to-liver-risk/5061874.article
https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safe...ral-ketoconazole-oral-tablets-due-potentially
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ajax
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Oh wow, thanks for posting that as I had no idea!!!
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NEEDLING DEPTH UTOPIA
I've been needling in utopia for a year - & suspect many here do the same...
A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME
1. purchased A6, set @2mm, few blood spots, thought I'm needling @2mm... WRONG!
2. purchased D2, set @2mm, few blood spots, thought I'm needling @2mm... WRONG!
3. used D2 @HI-Speed @2mm CORRECTLY (see below) and... blood ran in rivers down my forehead!
WHAT WAS WRONG?
To avoid (long) hair tangling, I was running D2 only in the hair direction,
LIFTING D2 after each stroke to start a new stroke in the same direction... WRONG!
HOW D2 WORKS
D2 starts shallow, measures stroke and progressively increases depth to the preset.
In other words: the 1st few seconds you needle shallower than you set.
In yet other words: if you lift after each stroke, you needle shallower all the time!
And this is exactly what I was doing - and suspect many others w/ long hair do the same...
WHAT IS RIGHT?
To needle at set depth, you MUST NOT LIFT D2 - for as long as possible that is...
The manual recommends "...moving in a moderate circular motion, do overlapping spirals with a couple cm (1 inch) diameter..."
https://www.derminator.com/Derminator-instructions.pdf
But I suspect this technique is for hair-less skin (e.g. face) cause it quickly tangles hair...
What I find an acceptable compromise is using the D2 in back-forth lawn-mower style in various directions:
This tangles hair, but not impossibly so -
and produces much, MUCH nastier results than the same settings with lifting action:
after 20min @1mm HI-Speed, my temples are completely covered w/ blood,
after rinsing, a pink liquid oozes everywhere / flows down my forehead,
and next day my temples are covered with crust from this pink liquid...
ABOUT A6 / DR.PEN
I have owned both the A6 and D2 (below is my mini-review)
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...-studies-and-such.119653/page-13#post-1777669
I'm almost 100% certain that A6 DOES NOT ACHIEVE SET DEPTH:
the D2 bleeding @2mm was INSANE @30Hz - if the the A6 achieved 2mm @100Hz, it would needle my brains off! But instead it just produced a few blood specks...
A6 DOES achieve depth idle (I've measured) - so what's up?
Skin friction slows the needles / reduces depth.
While the D2 magnet operates as a self-correcting Hammer,
hitting harder and harder till the set depth is achieved,
Dr.Pens (and similar) are mere oscillation devices -
they oscillate a weight w/ needles on a spring:
When you put a damper in their way (your skin),
the oscillation amplitude - and therefore needling depth - decreases:
Since their depth is set mechanically, they have no feedback-loop to rectify depth like the all-electronic D2 and I'm thus fairly confident that Dr.Pen type devices do NOT achieve set depth.
FINAL QUESTION
Does any D2 user achieve the Follica 1600 hits/cm2 @1mm with the above "correct depth" procedure?
@400 hits/cm2, my temples are covered with blood, and next day with crust -
can't imagine doing another 3 such sessions on top of that, all the way up to 1600...
I've been needling in utopia for a year - & suspect many here do the same...
A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME
1. purchased A6, set @2mm, few blood spots, thought I'm needling @2mm... WRONG!
2. purchased D2, set @2mm, few blood spots, thought I'm needling @2mm... WRONG!
3. used D2 @HI-Speed @2mm CORRECTLY (see below) and... blood ran in rivers down my forehead!
WHAT WAS WRONG?
To avoid (long) hair tangling, I was running D2 only in the hair direction,
LIFTING D2 after each stroke to start a new stroke in the same direction... WRONG!
HOW D2 WORKS
D2 starts shallow, measures stroke and progressively increases depth to the preset.
In other words: the 1st few seconds you needle shallower than you set.
In yet other words: if you lift after each stroke, you needle shallower all the time!
And this is exactly what I was doing - and suspect many others w/ long hair do the same...
WHAT IS RIGHT?
To needle at set depth, you MUST NOT LIFT D2 - for as long as possible that is...
The manual recommends "...moving in a moderate circular motion, do overlapping spirals with a couple cm (1 inch) diameter..."
https://www.derminator.com/Derminator-instructions.pdf
But I suspect this technique is for hair-less skin (e.g. face) cause it quickly tangles hair...
What I find an acceptable compromise is using the D2 in back-forth lawn-mower style in various directions:
This tangles hair, but not impossibly so -
and produces much, MUCH nastier results than the same settings with lifting action:
after 20min @1mm HI-Speed, my temples are completely covered w/ blood,
after rinsing, a pink liquid oozes everywhere / flows down my forehead,
and next day my temples are covered with crust from this pink liquid...
ABOUT A6 / DR.PEN
I have owned both the A6 and D2 (below is my mini-review)
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...-studies-and-such.119653/page-13#post-1777669
I'm almost 100% certain that A6 DOES NOT ACHIEVE SET DEPTH:
the D2 bleeding @2mm was INSANE @30Hz - if the the A6 achieved 2mm @100Hz, it would needle my brains off! But instead it just produced a few blood specks...
A6 DOES achieve depth idle (I've measured) - so what's up?
Skin friction slows the needles / reduces depth.
While the D2 magnet operates as a self-correcting Hammer,
hitting harder and harder till the set depth is achieved,
Dr.Pens (and similar) are mere oscillation devices -
they oscillate a weight w/ needles on a spring:
When you put a damper in their way (your skin),
the oscillation amplitude - and therefore needling depth - decreases:
Since their depth is set mechanically, they have no feedback-loop to rectify depth like the all-electronic D2 and I'm thus fairly confident that Dr.Pen type devices do NOT achieve set depth.
FINAL QUESTION
Does any D2 user achieve the Follica 1600 hits/cm2 @1mm with the above "correct depth" procedure?
@400 hits/cm2, my temples are covered with blood, and next day with crust -
can't imagine doing another 3 such sessions on top of that, all the way up to 1600...
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I have long hair and i think having your hair slightly damp helps avoid tangling in my experience, did the circling motion w no issuee
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- 273
Great stuff dude. So if I were using an A6 with A6 cartridges, which length and speed setting would be closest to Follica's protocol?
If you say the A6 measures correctly but does not reach the correct depth when used, then possibly 1.0mm = 1.5mm? And speed?
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