For bryan and Foote.

[wookster]

Fibrosis and collagen deposition with possible lymphocytic infiltrates happens at the same time follicular miniaturization is occurring.

:? :? :?

The edema is caused by the lymphocytic infiltrate. Not the other way around. Edema is the last step if it even is a step.

:freaked: :freaked: :freaked:

You are saying that follicular miniaturization via genetically programmed response to androgens precedes end stage edema... yes or no...

Seeing as how end stage edema has never been seen in a study involving a male with androgenic alopecia, I don't really need to answer that. Follicular miniaturization takes place at the exact same time that fibrosis and collagen deposition is occurring.

Then there is no edema of the scalp tissues in most people with male pattern baldness?

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... ight=foote

There is an interesting experiment anyone can try, this is the pitting edema test.

This gives a rough guide to the amount of fluid in surface tissues.

You push hard on the skin with a finger tip for around 20 seconds. When you remove the finger, the presence of a "dent" indicates that there is excess fluid in the tissue. The finger pressure has pushed this fluid away.

The depth of the dent and the time it takes to level out again, gives an idea of tissue fluid levels.

You can try this in various areas to get a comparison of local tissue fluid levels.

S Foote.

 

[docj077]

Fibrosis and collagen deposition with possible lymphocytic infiltrates happens at the same time follicular miniaturization is occurring.

:? :? :?

The edema is caused by the lymphocytic infiltrate. Not the other way around. Edema is the last step if it even is a step.

:freaked: :freaked: :freaked:

You are saying that follicular miniaturization via genetically programmed response to androgens precedes end stage edema... yes or no...

Seeing as how end stage edema has never been seen in a study involving a male with androgenic alopecia, I don't really need to answer that. Follicular miniaturization takes place at the exact same time that fibrosis and collagen deposition is occurring.

Then there is no edema of the scalp tissues in most people with male pattern baldness?

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... ight=foote

There is an interesting experiment anyone can try, this is the pitting edema test.

This gives a rough guide to the amount of fluid in surface tissues.

You push hard on the skin with a finger tip for around 20 seconds. When you remove the finger, the presence of a "dent" indicates that there is excess fluid in the tissue. The finger pressure has pushed this fluid away.

The depth of the dent and the time it takes to level out again, gives an idea of tissue fluid levels.

You can try this in various areas to get a comparison of local tissue fluid levels.

S Foote.

No, according to a dermatopathologist I spoke with, most men with androgenic alopecia do not have evidence of edema. However, lymphocitic infiltrates are quite common and the fibrosis and collagen deposition are guaranteed.

The pitting edema test works only if there is a rather large amount of subcutaneous fluid. It's very obvious if you've ever seen it. What Foote is describing tests capillary refill time and is used in the fingernails to test perfusion efficiency.

 

[wookster]

What Foote is describing tests capillary refill time and is used in the fingernails to test perfusion efficiency.

I will have to take your word for it, since my medical knowledge is practically zero :hairy: :freaked: :hairy:

 

[docj077]

What Foote is describing tests capillary refill time and is used in the fingernails to test perfusion efficiency.

I will have to take your word for it, since my medical knowledge is practically zero :hairy: :freaked: :hairy:

If you ever see a pitting edema, you'll know the difference between it and a capillary refill test. Simply pressing on an area and waiting for blood flow to return tests the perfusion ability of the capillaries in that area.

Edema is very obvious. Especially, prolonged edema.

You don't have to take my word for it. You can look it up if you like.

 

[S Foote.]

Fibrosis and collagen deposition with possible lymphocytic infiltrates happens at the same time follicular miniaturization is occurring.

:? :? :?

The edema is caused by the lymphocytic infiltrate. Not the other way around. Edema is the last step if it even is a step.

:freaked: :freaked: :freaked:

You are saying that follicular miniaturization via genetically programmed response to androgens precedes end stage edema... yes or no...

Seeing as how end stage edema has never been seen in a study involving a male with androgenic alopecia, I don't really need to answer that. Follicular miniaturization takes place at the exact same time that fibrosis and collagen deposition is occurring.

Then there is no edema of the scalp tissues in most people with male pattern baldness?

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... ight=foote

http://hairmillion.com/ref-hair-loss/ha ... 3.506.html[/url]

Quote:

" During light hyperthermia the evaporation rate on the bald scalp was 2 to 3 times higher than on the hairy scalp. Conversely the evaporation rate was practically equal on the foreheads and chins of women and unbearded young men, while in adult clean-shaven bearded men it was 40% less on the chin than the forehead."

I have the full sudy, and there is no physical change in the size of sweat glands. The only logical reason for these drastic changes in sweating capacity, is the pressure of fluid that feeds them.

We do have "actual" real life evidence that increased tissue fluid pressure in the human scalp, "causes" follicle miniaturisation!

This is in the rare cases where scalp edema does become obvious.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

http://alopecia.researchtoday.net/archive/1/2/66.htm

Two important facts come from these studies.

First, the fact that even severe edema can exist at certain levels in the scalp, with no real effect on other levels.


Secondly and most importantly, the noted follicle miniaturisation and hair loss, shows a clear link with inefficient lymphatic vessels.

Quote:

" The presence of ectatic lymphatic vessels in the two cases with hair loss was particularly emphasized. CONCLUSIONS: Our findings suggest a lessened role of racial factors, but confirms the sex implications in these related conditions, and stress the potential significance of lymphangiectatic vessels in the development of alopecia in these patients."

You don't agree with my reasoning Doctor, and thats fine!

But please, if you want to be taken seriously you must at least provide some "hard" references to your claims, and also references to your arguments to show they are valid in the context of male pattern baldness?

S Foote.

 

[docj077]

Sorry, Foote.

But, I don't buy the way you pick and choose only that which seems to go along with your theory.

You're a crappy scientist and you mislead people.

I have no edema on my head. I just did your test.

Where's your proof now?

You don't have any studies that back your claims from beginning to end. So, I will no longer respond or listen to anything you say.

If you would simply read all the other threads on this site that clearly demonstrate that the end result is fibrosis and collagen deposition instead of lymphedema, you'd understand why you continue to sound like a jackass.

Learn to read everything on this site. Not just what appeals to you.

Also, if you're going to discuss microscopic evidence, post the actual pictures of the slides. Anyone can say what you say. You still have no physical proof of your theory, because you don't have the microscopic proof. I've posted pictures or links to pictures in numerous other threads. Find them...you might learn something.

Also, your theory has basically been proven wrong by the introduction of apply poly therapy in in vivo studies. In case you don't know, it regrows hair and apple poly targets TGF-beta1 and TGF-beta2.

Talk to CCS,just look it up for yourself, or actually look at someone else's post besides the one's that your pretentious self likes to post. You seem like you're desperate. I'm sure you'll just google it.

 

[wookster]

We do have one in-vivo study that clearly indicates that tissue fluid pressures are related to androgen related hair growth/loss. This is the sweating study that has been quoted many times on these boards.

http://hairmillion.com/ref-hair-loss/ha ... 3.506.html

Quote:

" During light hyperthermia the evaporation rate on the bald scalp was 2 to 3 times higher than on the hairy scalp. Conversely the evaporation rate was practically equal on the foreheads and chins of women and unbearded young men, while in adult clean-shaven bearded men it was 40% less on the chin than the forehead."

I have the full sudy, and there is no physical change in the size of sweat glands. The only logical reason for these drastic changes in sweating capacity, is the pressure of fluid that feeds them.

Very interesting! :hairy:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

Some concrete information that corresponds to my own balding experience :freaked: Where there is thick hair density on my noggin, almost zero sweating happens - while in the balding area, there is profuse sweating after running a couple of miles.

 

[docj077]

We do have one in-vivo study that clearly indicates that tissue fluid pressures are related to androgen related hair growth/loss. This is the sweating study that has been quoted many times on these boards.

http://hairmillion.com/ref-hair-loss/ha ... 3.506.html

Quote:

" During light hyperthermia the evaporation rate on the bald scalp was 2 to 3 times higher than on the hairy scalp. Conversely the evaporation rate was practically equal on the foreheads and chins of women and unbearded young men, while in adult clean-shaven bearded men it was 40% less on the chin than the forehead."

I have the full sudy, and there is no physical change in the size of sweat glands. The only logical reason for these drastic changes in sweating capacity, is the pressure of fluid that feeds them.

Very interesting! :hairy:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

Some concrete information that corresponds to my own balding experience :freaked: Where there is thick hair density on my noggin, almost zero sweating happens - while in the balding area, there is profuse sweating after running a couple of miles.

You continue to amaze me, as well, Wookie. You buy into a theory that you can disprove by simply looking around and seeing all the men with full beards and full heads of hair. Where I live, it's quite common as I live very close to numerous Hutterite colonies and it gets awefully hot around here during the summer and awefully cold during the winter.

Stop listening to Foote and read all the studies on this site that involve procyanidins from apples and how they've been shown to regrow hair even better than minoxidil. Then, look up for yourself what they target. TGF-beta1 and TGF-beta2 along with Protein Kinase C. You'll see that all that is necessary is inhibition of the pathway. Minoxidil is not necessary and neither is the blocking of the DHT formation

 

[wookster]

Stop listening to Foote and read all the studies on this site that involve procyanidins from apples and how they've been shown to regrow hair even better than minoxidil. Then, look up for yourself what they target. TGF-beta1 and TGF-beta2 along with Protein Kinase C. You'll see that all that is necessary is inhibition of the pathway. Minoxidil is not necessary and neither is the blocking of the DHT formation

Interesting...

http://www.hairloss-research.org/february1.html

TGF down regulation- Curcumin, and topical Amacha.

Curcumin also has diuretic properties.

 

[S Foote.]

Sorry, Foote.

But, I don't buy the way you pick and choose only that which seems to go along with your theory.

You're a crappy scientist and you mislead people.

I have no edema on my head. I just did your test.

Where's your proof now?

You don't have any studies that back your claims from beginning to end. So, I will no longer respond or listen to anything you say.

If you would simply read all the other threads on this site that clearly demonstrate that the end result is fibrosis and collagen deposition instead of lymphedema, you'd understand why you continue to sound like a jackass.

Learn to read everything on this site. Not just what appeals to you.

Also, if you're going to discuss microscopic evidence, post the actual pictures of the slides. Anyone can say what you say. You still have no physical proof of your theory, because you don't have the microscopic proof. I've posted pictures or links to pictures in numerous other threads. Find them...you might learn something.

Also, your theory has basically been proven wrong by the introduction of apply poly therapy in in vivo studies. In case you don't know, it regrows hair and apple poly targets TGF-beta1 and TGF-beta2.

Talk to CCS,just look it up for yourself, or actually look at someone else's post besides the one's that your pretentious self likes to post. You seem like you're desperate. I'm sure you'll just google it.

Wow :!:

I think i will just leave you to ramble on in your fantasy world :roll:

Normal people seem to have no problem grasping the realities of the evidence, nuf said :wink:

S Foote.

 

[docj077]

Stop listening to Foote and read all the studies on this site that involve procyanidins from apples and how they've been shown to regrow hair even better than minoxidil. Then, look up for yourself what they target. TGF-beta1 and TGF-beta2 along with Protein Kinase C. You'll see that all that is necessary is inhibition of the pathway. Minoxidil is not necessary and neither is the blocking of DHT formation

Interesting...

http://www.hairloss-research.org/february1.html

TGF down regulation- Curcumin, and topical Amacha.

Curcumin also has diuretic properties.

No, according to pubmed.com, there has not been a single study demonstrating that it is a diuretic.

Curcumin is an anti-inflammatory, which means it will prevent long term edema secondary to such inflammation. That does not mean it's a diuretic. It attenuates renal fibrosis, is cytoprotective for renal tubules, and there is no study on pubmed that demonstrates it has an effect on any renal tubule transporter either in vitro or in vivo. However, curcumin can potentially alter the function of the CFTR in both lung and the kidneys. That has not been proven either way.

 

[docj077]

Sorry, Foote.

But, I don't buy the way you pick and choose only that which seems to go along with your theory.

You're a crappy scientist and you mislead people.

I have no edema on my head. I just did your test.

Where's your proof now?

You don't have any studies that back your claims from beginning to end. So, I will no longer respond or listen to anything you say.

If you would simply read all the other threads on this site that clearly demonstrate that the end result is fibrosis and collagen deposition instead of lymphedema, you'd understand why you continue to sound like a jackass.

Learn to read everything on this site. Not just what appeals to you.

Also, if you're going to discuss microscopic evidence, post the actual pictures of the slides. Anyone can say what you say. You still have no physical proof of your theory, because you don't have the microscopic proof. I've posted pictures or links to pictures in numerous other threads. Find them...you might learn something.

Also, your theory has basically been proven wrong by the introduction of apply poly therapy in in vivo studies. In case you don't know, it regrows hair and apple poly targets TGF-beta1 and TGF-beta2.

Talk to CCS,just look it up for yourself, or actually look at someone else's post besides the one's that your pretentious self likes to post. You seem like you're desperate. I'm sure you'll just google it.

Wow :!:

I think i will just leave you to ramble on in your fantasy world :roll:

Normal people seem to have no problem grasping the realities of the evidence, nuf said :wink:

S Foote.

Go play games on your computer some more. Then, come back and read studies from the rest of this site, like I said.

It's you that can't figure out that topical procyanidin regrows hair and that the only pathways procyanidin targets are TGF-beta1, TGF-beta2, and Protein Kinase C. This has been seen in vivo in both murine models and human subjects. There is no effect on DHT whatsoever.

If there's no need to inhibit DHT, then it makes your theory look ridiculous. Sort of like your posts.

Face it. DHT inhibition is not required for hair regrowth, nor is DHT the cause of hair loss. It's upstream mediators are, however.

I'll let you do the rest of the research. I'm sure you'll come out of your alcohol stupor soon, so you'll figure it out.

 

[wookster]

No, according to pubmed.com, there has not been a single study demonstrating that it is a diuretic.

:freaked: :freaked: :freaked:


http://www.eyesight.nu/curcumin/Cucumin_Issue_01.htm

Curcumin is the main biologically active part of Turmeric. Over 500 references to articles on Turmeric and Curcumin have been published in peer reviewed professional journals.

It has been identified in pharmacology as:

Anti-bacterial
Anti-inflammatory
Anti-viral
Anti-oxidant

Anti-fungal
Anti-spasmodic

Anti-yeast
Carminative

Anti-allergenic
Diuretic and anti-tumour

 

[wookster]

http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/12393936

Synthetic analogs of green tea polyphenols as proteasome inhibitors

[...]

Previously, one of our laboratories reported that natural ester bond-containing green tea polyphenols (GTPs), such as (-)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate [(-)-EGCG] and (-)-gallocatechin-3-gallate [(-)-GCG], are potent and specific proteasome inhibitors.

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?IDX=CA2 ... &DB=EPODOC

Compounds that inhibit the activity of NF-.kappa.B or inhibit the activity o f the proteasome or both promote bone formation and hair growth and are thus useful in treating osteoporosis, bone fracture or deficiency, primary or secondary hyperparathyroidism, periodontal disease or defect, metastatic bon e disease, osteolytic bone disease, post-plastic surgery, post-prosthetic join t surgery, and post-dental implantation; they also stimulate the production of hair follicles and are thus useful in stimulating hair growth, including hair density, in subject where this is desirable.

 

[michael barry]

Docj077,


I have some apple poly proanthocyandins. I had bought six months worth a while back. It has B-3 proanthocyandins from barley, C-2 from grape seed, and the apple B-2's. It also has aloe vera gel (NO releaser I think), abscorbyl palmitiate (excites hair cells in studies), retin-A (did you know that retin-A decreases androgen receptor expression) and propylene glycol.


Im not "jumpin' in the middle or takin' sides (I really have enjoyed your posts and have learned a great deal from them. Youre a very smart man, bright future). Im just going to post a couple of things that *again* mysteriously "jive" with Stephen's theory (my position on Steve's theory is that I hope he can get it scientifically tested as he's put alot of work in it. It would seem unlikely that it could be true and so many could have missed it, but Im hoping a scientific test can resolve it for him. Its the only theory that can answer hair transplants and why they work).


Here are my two points. Proanthocyanidins are used in edema. The Apple poly proanthocyaninds caused my hands to swell PAINFULLY after putting them on at night a few nights. I admit to putting on a bit too much (didn't drench my head though). It shifted fluid in me personally. Ive had this happen with prox-N once also. Minoxidil, if you really put alot on, will also make your hands swell in the morning............but youve got to put alot of minoxidil on to do that. My hands after the apple-poly literally hurt me and it felt like I had arthritis. Full of water. When you get your hands on the apple-poly you will find when it dries on your head it leaves a little brownish-residue and it contracts. Sort of like spilling apple juice on your hands when you were a kid. That "sticky" feeling when it "draws up" like wet leather.


My second point...................Stephen are YOU listening? You'll get a kick out of this.: Cutting a pasting:

"Herbal Breast Enhancement ProductsAfter research of various natural breast enhancement products, GrobustTM was ... Apple Cider Vinegar, Apple Pectin, Apricot Kernel, Arctic Root, Arginine "


Gyno is a "diuretic effect". Its a shifting of fluids. Everything in that herbal product has been used to grow hair. Apricot Kernel is in L'Oreal's new serum along with borage seed oil and avocado oil. Arginine is a NO releaser (like pomegranate is..............lotsa people playing with pomegranate for hair now by the way). Apple cider vinegar no doubt has some apple proanthocyanidins, is a known diruetic, anti-inflammatory, etc.



Docj07, Ive been able to explain away every point Stephen has made, but also have been able to see every point he has made. Its a double-edged sword with his theory. For instance...............the increased sweating capacity. Have you ever seen a cut out of donor area hair microscopically enlarged before a surgeon cuts up the follicular units for transplantation? The follicles and dermal papilla's are BIG. If your beard hairs all miniaturized to vellus follicles........................something would have to "fill" the space that those big dermal papillas once occupied. What would do it? Skin cells of course. What are skin cells made of primarily? Like all cells, they are mostly water. Of course it will evaporate more readily.


See what I mean. Lots of anti-androgens lead to breast enlargement like flutamide, dutasteride, etc. We can either argue that receptor blockage leads to these feminine characteristics or receptor blockage redistributes fluids and leads to fluid retention in femine areas. I want Stephen to get his theory tested in a scientific way for his own satisfaction. The theory is probably a long shot, but there are so many *mysterious* coincidences...........................I think many here would like to know for absolute sure.




I wish you guys could carry on as respectfully as your patience will allow. The threads with Stephen, Bryan, and Dave001 had alot of interesting info, but got so poisioned that they ended.




By the way Docj077, are you indeed going to give the apple poly a shot?

 

[Bryan]

I want Stephen to get his theory tested in a scientific way for his own satisfaction.

Michael, do you seriously think Stephen would EVER accept any scientific evidence at all that goes against his theory? I don't. He's had a long history of making excuses to explain unfavorable studies. I'm not saying this just to be mean or provocative, it's just the simple truth. He's in a state of denial, and I don't think that's ever going to change. He will NEVER be "satisfied" that his theory has been discredited.

Bryan

 

[wookster]

Ive been able to explain away every point Stephen has made, but also have been able to see every point he has made. Its a double-edged sword with his theory. For instance...............the increased sweating capacity. Have you ever seen a cut out of donor area hair microscopically enlarged before a surgeon cuts up the follicular units for transplantation? The follicles and dermal papilla's are BIG. If your beard hairs all miniaturized to vellus follicles........................something would have to "fill" the space that those big dermal papillas once occupied. What would do it? Skin cells of course. What are skin cells made of primarily? Like all cells, they are mostly water. Of course it will evaporate more readily.

Duality of baldness theories?

An "M-theory" of male pattern baldness?

:freaked: :hairy: :freaked:

 

[docj077]

No, according to pubmed.com, there has not been a single study demonstrating that it is a diuretic.

:freaked: :freaked: :freaked:


http://www.eyesight.nu/curcumin/Cucumin_Issue_01.htm

Curcumin is the main biologically active part of Turmeric. Over 500 references to articles on Turmeric and Curcumin have been published in peer reviewed professional journals.

It has been identified in pharmacology as:

Anti-bacterial
Anti-inflammatory
Anti-viral
Anti-oxidant

Anti-fungal
Anti-spasmodic

Anti-yeast
Carminative

Anti-allergenic
Diuretic and anti-tumour

I have fun watching you post. You always bring very interesting information to the forums like Michael Barry.

The site you posted is very interesting and would leave anyone to believe that curcumin is some sort of super herb. However, one must understand that megadoses of the stuff can essentially shut down pieces of the immune system. Granted, that's when a person takes like 10 grams of the stuff, but it's ugly, nonetheless.

From looking on pubmed, the only mention I saw of curcumin removing edema was in the context of it removing edema from the brain. I could find no evidence of it directly affecting any transporter in the kidney tubules. If I could find an article demonstrating that it effects the NKCC2 transporter or a sodium/potassium transporter, then I'd take it seriously. My personal experience with it has yielded no evidence of increaes diuresis. My input and output are exactly the same as when I started and I demonstrate no evidence of dehydration. However, thank you for making me curious. That was something I did not consider.

If you find an article demonstrating it's diuretic effects on pubmed, or a similar site of equal medical importance, please let us know.

Thanks.

 

[docj077]

Michael Barry,

Your post above ^^^^ about procyanidins was really confusing to me. Hopefully, you read this and can explain, but it sounded to me like the apple poly caused edema in your hands, but actually caused the removal of water from the underlying tissue in your scalp, which resulted in a drying and contraction.

That's just plain odd.

But, thanks for posting interesting material in a lot of good threads. You always make everyone work a little harder on this site.

Thanks.

As for the apple poly, I can't really find a cheap source anywhere as I want to take an internal if at all possible. I hate topicals with all my heart and soul, but CCS gives great techniques for their creation, so I might try them once again.

 

[wookster]

http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/12393936

Synthetic analogs of green tea polyphenols as proteasome inhibitors

[...]

Previously, one of our laboratories reported that natural ester bond-containing green tea polyphenols (GTPs), such as (-)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate [(-)-EGCG] and (-)-gallocatechin-3-gallate [(-)-GCG], are potent and specific proteasome inhibitors.

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?IDX=CA2 ... &DB=EPODOC

[quote:116df]
Compounds that inhibit the activity of NF-.kappa.B or inhibit the activity o f the proteasome or both promote bone formation and hair growth and are thus useful in treating osteoporosis, bone fracture or deficiency, primary or secondary hyperparathyroidism, periodontal disease or defect, metastatic bon e disease, osteolytic bone disease, post-plastic surgery, post-prosthetic join t surgery, and post-dental implantation; they also stimulate the production of hair follicles and are thus useful in stimulating hair growth, including hair density, in subject where this is desirable.

[/quote:116df]

Some proteasome inhibitors stimulate (BMP)s?

http://www.hhmi.org/news/fuchs2.html

The researchers also had evidence that a second mechanism, involving a signaling molecule called bone morphogenetic protein (BMP), is also required for creating epithelial buds—pockets in the skin that are the precursors of hair follicles.