For bryan and Foote.

[Footy]

Upon further consideration.........Stephen do you think that perhaps DHT could be like the effect liquor has on a person? One drink=great, 2=better, 5=nauseated, 12=alchohol poisoning, 14=DEAD?


What do scientists that you have read speculate about androgens added directly to hair in vitro surrounded by collagen that doesnt shrink to vellus when experiments are performed? Do they all postulate about a hair cycle clock, or believe that on cycle number X or Y the bald genes express themselves? Do any of them have alternate theories of baldness also?

You just cant replicate such a contact inhibition aspect in-vitro Michael. The in-vitro tests we have been talking about, concern cell cultures and not `whole' follicles. I wish we could do such an experiment!

I do relate to your argument above that DHT can be too much of a good thing. We should remember that DHT grows hair everywhere else.

I do think the differences noted in scalp blood flow in male pattern baldness are very significant, and are explained by the higher tissue fluid pressure effecting the capillaries.

I am sure that some professional scientists are developing alternative theories of male pattern baldness, but it can be professionaly dangerous to go on the record to early. The respose i posted here from Dr Sawaya, clearly refered to others thinking along similar lines if you remember.

S Foote.

 

[Dave001]

So Dave, although we have problems with Stephen's theory on the cause of male pattern baldness, etc., I couldn't take issue with his suggested treatment(s). (Unless I understood his advice erroneously.)

He doesn't have a theory; it's just an opinion, and not a very good one at that. What he recommends as treatment is irrelevant.

Doctor Proctor feels factors other than DHT play a MAJOR role in male pattern baldness progression

That depends on how you look at it. Androgens per se do not directly cause hair loss; the changes they induce do. The factors to which you refer are not part of a discrete sequence. They are consequential to AR activation.

 

[Old Baldy]

Dave wrote:

That depends on how you look at it. Androgens per se do not directly cause hair loss; the changes they induce do. The factors to which you refer are not part of a discrete sequence. They are consequential to AR activation.

I agree. However, your post about cyclosporin (sp?) on another hair loss site has my head spinning!

(Nevermind Dave, your response on the other site calmed me down. You see, I'm new at this male pattern baldness stuff and fly off the handle easily when I read somethng that confuses me. You could call it wacko but that's the way I am.)

 

[Footy]

So Dave, although we have problems with Stephen's theory on the cause of male pattern baldness, etc., I couldn't take issue with his suggested treatment(s). (Unless I understood his advice erroneously.)

He doesn't have a theory; it's just an opinion, and not a very good one at that. What he recommends as treatment is irrelevant.

Again, for the third time now, i will ask you to explain your statement that Ockhams razor refutes my theory?

If you want to be taken seriously here, just back up your arrogant psuedo scientific talk with some `REAL' science :wink:

S Foote.

 

[Dave001]

Again, for the third time now, i will ask you to explain your statement that Ockhams razor refutes my theory?

I'm sorry that you don't understand the concept.

If you want to be taken seriously here, just back up your arrogant psuedo scientific talk with some `REAL' science :wink:

Sigh... Speaking of pseudoscience, your loose bandying of terms related to fluid dynamics is about to earn your theory a place in the physics hall of shame of Immortal Fumbles. I am serious. It would probably be in your best interest to keep your ignorance known to a smaller audience.

 

[Footy]

Again, for the third time now, i will ask you to explain your statement that Ockhams razor refutes my theory?

I'm sorry that you don't understand the concept.

I fully understand the concept, my theory was developed using the principles of Ockhams razor. The problem you have is the term `Ockhams razor' was just something you found on Google, and you thought you would use it here to try to impress people!

You have now made it very clear to everyone here, that you are just totally lost when it comes to genuine scientific debates :wink:

If you want to be taken seriously here, just back up your arrogant psuedo scientific talk with some `REAL' science :wink:

Sigh... Speaking of pseudoscience, your loose bandying of terms related to fluid dynamics is about to earn your theory a place in the physics hall of shame of Immortal Fumbles. I am serious. It would probably be in your best interest to keep your ignorance known to a smaller audience.

So dave, you are now claiming that lymphedema is just some fantasy of mine? The local build up of tissue fluid due to a lymphatic restriction, can't happen according to your idea's about the laws of fluid dynamics :roll:

You had better go and tell these people they are just imagining this!

http://www.lymphoedema.org.au/index.htm

Do yourself a favour and dont ever apply for a job in `real science'. Just keep on kidding yourself you are impressing people on these forums. :wink:

S Foote.

 

[michael barry]

Stephen,
Have you ever contacted any of the doctors who specialize in lymphoedema and asked them to check out a balding guy to see if they would diagnose his scalp of such?

Do you think the benzo-pyrone drugs that are administered for lymphoedema would be effective in combatting alopecia?


I mention the first question because, since youre published, a Doctor may give you a fair listening and the next time he has a balding lymphoedema patient, he could run a few tests on him and get back to you with his findings. Idea?

 

[Footy]

Stephen,
Have you ever contacted any of the doctors who specialize in lymphoedema and asked them to check out a balding guy to see if they would diagnose his scalp of such?

Do you think the benzo-pyrone drugs that are administered for lymphoedema would be effective in combatting alopecia?


I mention the first question because, since youre published, a Doctor may give you a fair listening and the next time he has a balding lymphoedema patient, he could run a few tests on him and get back to you with his findings. Idea?

This is something i want to try to get done. There is some interest from a group who are involved in lympedema research, and i am working on generating further interest.

There is an electrical resistence test, that is suppose to be able to tell small differences in tissue fluid levels. I also think that a profile CT scan would show up the tissue thickening in male pattern baldness.

I do think the sweating study posted on this forum, demonstrates the `fluid' differences, and i feel this could be confirmed with proper research.

I do think the topical benzo-pyrones would make a significant difference in male pattern baldness. The problem is they are presciption only, and some of them are toxic to the liver.

As you can imagine it isn't easy getting the people in a position to run these tests, to do so based on a `non' medical individuals arguments.

But interest is growing, and more supporting evidence for the theory is coming to light. For example, people have said that there is no real evidence for edema actually `causing' follicle miniaturization as i suggest.

But it turns out there is a proven instance of edema, directly causing follicle miniaturization like we see in male pattern baldness!

This is in the reports of Lipedematous Alopecia. In these cases there is an `obvious' scalp edema for a number of possible medical reasons. The links below show that this edema creates follicle shrinkage and hair loss, in line with the level of the edema around the follicles.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

http://www.amjdermatopathology.com/pt/r ... 44!9001!-1

http://www.ehrs.org/conferenceabstracts ... ukhari.htm

http://dreampharmaceuticals.com/alopeci ... s3.10.html


S Foote.

 

[michael barry]

Stephen,
What is lymphedema's normal effect on sebaceous glands? Does this mirror what we see in male pattern baldness?

Ive went through the pages on lymhedema, must admit the chain of events almost mirrors male pattern baldness. I keep coming back to the immune deficient mice and the vellus hairs obvious potential for full regrowth. If superoxides somehow can be taught not to attack the follicles, we'd all be in the clear. Ive read about a new pill on ABC news called Protandium which makes the body manufacture much more superoxide dismutase and catalese to fight oxides and wondered if a scalp version of this could be made. Its just made of five herbs.

If edema is causing baldness, it must be the part where edema elicits an immune response wouldnt you think? Perhaps the peripheral fluids building up and stagnating, not getting white blood cells from the squeezed capillaries gets the immune system to send the oxides that restrict the follicles maybe.

 

[Old Baldy]

Michael, get the herbs (there are MANY more you can use), make the extracts and hope for the best.

Read up on herbs, read up on making extracts, use your imagination, remember this is the "twilight zone" area of male pattern baldness treatments, then GO FOR IT.

 

[S Foote.]

Stephen,
What is lymphedema's normal effect on sebaceous glands? Does this mirror what we see in male pattern baldness?

Ive went through the pages on lymhedema, must admit the chain of events almost mirrors male pattern baldness. I keep coming back to the immune deficient mice and the vellus hairs obvious potential for full regrowth. If superoxides somehow can be taught not to attack the follicles, we'd all be in the clear. Ive read about a new pill on ABC news called Protandium which makes the body manufacture much more superoxide dismutase and catalese to fight oxides and wondered if a scalp version of this could be made. Its just made of five herbs.

If edema is causing baldness, it must be the part where edema elicits an immune response wouldnt you think? Perhaps the peripheral fluids building up and stagnating, not getting white blood cells from the squeezed capillaries gets the immune system to send the oxides that restrict the follicles maybe.

There isn't a lot of specific info about the effect of edema on sebaceous glands as far as i can tell.

From the viewpoint of my theory, it would be easier for these changes in fluid pressures to effect the size of the follicles through contact inhibition, than sebaceous glands.

This is because of the natural growth and shrinkage of follicles due to the hair cycle. As i have said, it is when the follicles try to regrow in anagen that the surrounding pressure effects this growth through contact inhibition.

The sebaceous glands do not go through a shrinkage and regrowth cycle, so it would take a lot of a pressure increase to make these glands smaller, compared to the follicles.

It would of course be easier for a reduction in surrounding pressure to enlarge sebaceous glands. This is because the natural cell replacement in the glands would increase to `fill' the extra space the reduced pressure allows.

This is why i think we get larger sebaceous glands on the face as we start to get beard growth. But in the male pattern baldness scalp, the sebaceous glands tend to stay around the same large size they were, when they had large follicles to service.

I do think the edema in male pattern baldness is the `cause' of the immune infiltrate and sensitivity. This is a well known effect of edema, as described on the lymphedema sites i linked. Certainly i think topicals aimed at reducing the inflammation, will also reduce the edema and fibrosis and so help in male pattern baldness.

S Foote.

 

[michael barry]

Good stuff Stephen,
Ive tried to think of questions that would peck away at your theory (you stated in an earlier post that thats why you came to the net was to see if someone could disprove it for you). I know you and Bryan have went back and forth over the transplantation results of old plug grafts and interpretations of them. Youve pretty much had good answers to the queries Ive been able to come up with. Out of the main alternative theories of baldness, edema seems the most plausible to me personally.

The only other query that you could field for me (and Im sure many others in looking at baldness) is why some guys have such SHARP demarcation lines in their hippocratic wreaths with huge terminal hairs sprouting right at the horseshoe hairline and why some guys wreaths are thin and have thin hairs in them. Its the "hard line" that seems to correlate with the old "androgen sensitivity in each follicle" theory that some guys have. Ive obviously been checking out balding heads in the past year and seeing what I can determine about baldness and reflections on what I see. Im still really puzzled as to why medicine seems so stumped by baldness to be honest. I went to rogaines homepage to today and was pissed beyond belief at the pitiful explanation of both baldness and how minoxidil works. They literally dont want the reader to know anything and simply have a moving diagram showing minoxidil pushing bad hormones (doesnt even name DHT) away from the follicle. Youre told literally squat.


Im about to back off my resarch efforts into hair, I think, and only check in every few weeks for a few hours on the weekends. Im still left with a few reflections: Blood flow on average is 2.6 times less in balding scalps than hairy ones. Uprergulating VEGF in mice and enlarging their microcapillaries led to a 40% increase in hair mass and made vellus hairs look like terminal ones with a protien that makes VEGF increase (Tom Hagerty's site), the scientists concluded that if we could just keep the microcapillaries big and unclogged (think about boozing drunks and their usually good heads of hair), we could keep our hair as even most bald men have plenty of tiny vellus hairs on their heads if you look superclose. Diets with plenty of animal fats from red meat and milk make Japnese a much more bald race than they were just 60 years ago when they had a soy based diet and Arab emigrants to Europe and a few Hispanic immigrants to the US are balding much more often now than where they lived before. Bald scalps have more cholesterol in them and this is why polysorbates are in many hair loss products and men with very round heads seem to bald more than men with flatter tops. Insulin-resistance increasing foods (sugars, white flour) seem to be implicated in temporal loss in studies. Immune deficient mice growing transplanted vellus hair back to full size seems to indicate that if we could trick our body into making plenty of catalese and superoxide dismutase, we'd be in the clear on baldness. Science has done a lousy job with baldness thusfar, only giving us a one to one hair replacement surgery that robs Peter to pay Paul and will lead to see-through hair in horeshoe bald men who go this route. Drug companies seem miles away from a cure. I dont trust Bosley very much with cloning and think this may be a marketing gimmick to get guys to "get surgery now" because a "cure" will always be 5-10 years away for the next 20 years, but if they perfect it I'll take eveything I said back and be among the first in line and speak well of em' for the rest of my life. Ernie Primeau has absolutely ruined alt.baldspot.com and has to be the most despicable human being on the face of God's green earth (Bryan and you will finally agree on something if you both read that).

 

[S Foote.]

Hi Michael.

I think the `edges' of the balding area, would be a good thing for further research.

We do get some transition area where there are shorter hairs and reduced terminal growth. It would be interesting to study the anagen lengths and periods in this area.

Apart from the length of the re-entry into anagen as i have argued, the other factor in surviving increased pressue, is the natural rigidity of the tissue. If you remember i refered to this in the `eyebrow' discussion.

The other thing that could explain a reletively sudden cut off point at the edges, is the role of the galea. This could help retain the fluid pressure around the follicles in the male pattern baldness area, with a sudden release into deeper tissues at it's edges.

I too am going to take a break from posting, i have a lot of other distractions going on at the moment. I will check once in a while to see whats going on.

Good luck.

S Foote.

 

[2tone]

The only other query that you could field for me (and Im sure many others in looking at baldness) is why some guys have such SHARP demarcation lines in their hippocratic wreaths with huge terminal hairs sprouting right at the horseshoe hairline and why some guys wreaths are thin and have thin hairs in them. Its the "hard line" that seems to correlate with the old "androgen sensitivity in each follicle" theory that some guys have. Ive obviously been checking out balding heads in the past year and seeing what I can determine about baldness and reflections on what I see.

Yes .. these are the things that observation tells me too . The distribution of male pattern baldness is ver significant imo . I have for some time felt this is a consequence of Circulation issues .

There is a very significant article i have found as relates to this i think . It indicates variable DHT levels in different areas of the scalp , indicating thet the primary point if action of male pattern baldness was at the Vertex ( the top ) of the head and that the other areas of patterned balness were secondary derived balndess areas ..

I think the power of common observation is huge and that the patterns we can recognise are calling out to us talking to us ..

Im still really puzzled as to why medicine seems so stumped by baldness to be honest

Yes its an interesting issue .. i too have a sneaking consipracy type theory that rises when i realise how apparently 'retarded' the professional opiniona in the field are .. its only natural to think this .. but i think the reality is that a whole range of human professional and commercial opinion can be described as rather naieve and superficial .. i think you will find a similar dearth of true knowledge about mechanisms etc in just about any intellectual field you direct the same kind of passionate intellectual attention towards ..

Its very positive for me to see you write this , very timely too ,, sometimes unless i catch myself properly i can lapse into a form of constructed depression thinking that there is some greater conspiracy , i mean the system could be encouraging things along better no doubt but i truly think the conspiracy is one of ignorance and that we generally take far too much for granted about expertise some of which is strongly thrust upon us

 

[Bryan]

Yes .. these are the things that observation tells me too . The distribution of male pattern baldness is ver significant imo . I have for some time felt this is a consequence of Circulation issues .

Nah. I don't think it has anything to do with circulation issues.

There is a very significant article i have found as relates to this i think . It indicates variable DHT levels in different areas of the scalp , indicating thet the primary point if action of male pattern baldness was at the Vertex ( the top ) of the head and that the other areas of patterned balness were secondary derived balndess areas ..

I doubt that different levels of DHT in different areas of scalp have much to do with it. I think the difference in the response to DHT in different areas is of paramount importance.

Bryan

 

[S Foote.]

Yes .. these are the things that observation tells me too . The distribution of male pattern baldness is ver significant imo . I have for some time felt this is a consequence of Circulation issues .

Nah. I don't think it has anything to do with circulation issues.

There is a very significant article i have found as relates to this i think . It indicates variable DHT levels in different areas of the scalp , indicating thet the primary point if action of male pattern baldness was at the Vertex ( the top ) of the head and that the other areas of patterned balness were secondary derived balndess areas ..

I doubt that different levels of DHT in different areas of scalp have much to do with it. I think the difference in the response to DHT in different areas is of paramount importance.

Bryan

If circulation issues have nothing to do with male pattern baldness, how can you explain the well accepted fact of higher tissue levels of DHT in the male pattern baldness area, when the largest local producers (large anagen follicles) are absent??

DHT produced by the type two enzyme is predominent in hair follicles, and accounts for two thirds of systematic DHT, against one third produced by type one enzyme predominent in sebaceous glands. (Merck PDR).

So how is it possible for the male pattern baldness area to be `producing' more DHT than hairy areas of the scalp that have more production capacity?

It isn't possible via local production, so the only explaination for more DHT in the male pattern baldness area, is a higher tissue fluid level meaning increased levels of circulating substances including DHT!

Only a `circulation' issue scientificaly explains what we are seeing!

As for this different `response' of follicles to DHT you keep claiming Bryan, the in-vitro tests clearly show that direct exposure of `ANY' hair follicle cell sample, does `NOT' change it's pre-existing growth characteristics. Quite simply, androgens `DO NOT' directly effect the growth of follicles. All the in-vitro studies show this, and this is why more and more professional scientists now question the historical assumptions made in male pattern baldness research.

Just constantly trying to invent excuses for actual test results that don't suit a personal opinion, is just not science Bryan :roll:

S Foote.

 

[Bryan]

If circulation issues have nothing to do with male pattern baldness, how can you explain the well accepted fact of higher tissue levels of DHT in the male pattern baldness area, when the largest local producers (large anagen follicles) are absent??

The rich supply of DHT from the sebaceous glands.

DHT produced by the type two enzyme is predominent in hair follicles, and accounts for two thirds of systematic DHT, against one third produced by type one enzyme predominent in sebaceous glands. (Merck PDR).

Correct.

So how is it possible for the male pattern baldness area to be `producing' more DHT than hairy areas of the scalp that have more production capacity?

The increase in DHT from those big, fat, healthy sebaceous glands more than makes up for the (probably) declining amounts of DHT from miniaturizing hair follicles.

It isn't possible via local production, so the only explaination for more DHT in the male pattern baldness area, is a higher tissue fluid level meaning increased levels of circulating substances including DHT!

It IS possible, as I explained above.

As for this different `response' of follicles to DHT you keep claiming Bryan, the in-vitro tests clearly show that direct exposure of `ANY' hair follicle cell sample, does `NOT' change it's pre-existing growth characteristics.

You've said that many many times (just like a parrot), and my answer is still the same.

Quite simply, androgens `DO NOT' directly effect the growth of follicles.

Prove it. BTW, I won't be holding my breath while I'm waiting for that! :wink:

Just constantly trying to invent excuses for actual test results that don't suit a personal opinion, is just not science Bryan :roll:

I'm not the one here who invents excuses and puts a "spin" on things.

Bryan

 

[Dave001]

As for this different `response' of follicles to DHT you keep claiming Bryan, the in-vitro tests clearly show that direct exposure of `ANY' hair follicle cell sample, does `NOT' change it's pre-existing growth characteristics.

Asada, Y., T. Sonoda, et al. (2001). "5{{alpha}}-Reductase Type 2 Is Constitutively Expressed in the Dermal Papilla and Connective Tissue Sheath of the Hair Follicle in Vivo But Not during Culture in Vitro." Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 86(6): 2875-2880.

Recent studies suggest that 5{alpha}-reductase type 2 (5{alpha}R2) rather than 5{alpha}R1 plays a key role in the pathogenesis of male-pattern baldness. To clarify the localization of the androgen receptor (AR), 5{alpha}R1, and 5{alpha}R2 in the hair follicle, we investigated the expression of the corresponding genes by RT-PCR using microdissected hair follicles. AR and 5{alpha}R1 mRNAs were expressed in all portions of the hair follicle. By contrast, 5{alpha}R2 mRNA was expressed only in mesenchymal portions that included the dermal papilla and connective tissue sheath, and hardly any was expressed in epithelial portions. The intensity of expression of these genes in each portion of the hair follicles did not differ between follicles from balding and nonbalding scalp. We also examined the expression of these genes in cultured fibroblasts derived from the dermal papilla and connective tissue sheath. Although expression of AR and 5{alpha}R1 mRNAs was easily detected, there was no obvious expression of 5{alpha}R2 mRNA in either type of cell. Type-specific inhibition of 5{alpha}R activity by MK386 and MK906 confirmed these patterns of expression of 5{alpha}R mRNA. Thus, the expression of 5{alpha}R2 mRNA seems to be characteristic of freshly microdissected mesenchymal portions of the hair follicle, but such expression might not be maintained in culture.

 

[Dave001]

If circulation issues have nothing to do with male pattern baldness, how can you explain the well accepted fact of higher tissue levels of DHT in the male pattern baldness area, when the largest local producers (large anagen follicles) are absent??

Huh? A non sequitur. Are you suggesting that intrafollicular production of androgens, growth factors, or whatever, is a self-limiting system as a consequence of its own destruction?

 

[Dave001]

So how is it possible for the male pattern baldness area to be `producing' more DHT than hairy areas of the scalp that have more production capacity?

The increase in DHT from those big, fat, healthy sebaceous glands more than makes up for the (probably) declining amounts of DHT from miniaturizing hair follicles.

DHT from the sebaceous glands probably isn't very important to the process of Androgenetic Alopecia, but I suspect you may have offered that merely as an alternative counterexample.