From Finasteride to Grape Seed Extract

[guybrush]

I have been trying different finasteride dosages during the last month to check how my body reacts to them. I wanted to know if there was any chance for me to give it a shot again (I had to quit after 6 months long time ago) but apparently there is no way. Whatever the dose I take I get bad anxiety, low mood and eventually brain fog. I also experience oily skin, reduced ejaculate volume and slightly lower libido, but that doesn't worry me too much to be honest.

So I dropped the whole idea and started researching for a topical alternative. In the meantime, I started taking a grape seed extract supplement that I believe could be the cause of an unexpected improvement I experienced a long time ago when I was treating my hair loss. To my surprise, I take the caps for a couple of days and I notice the same exact reaction that I had on finasteride. Just that this time I didn't experience any changes on mood or anxiety. I get the oily skin, a little less ejaculate volume and maybe a slightly lower libido. Thus my guess is that this is a pretty decent DHT inhibitor that doesn't make it to the brain like finasteride.

I know from my research that grape seed extract may have growth stimulant properties and this is the reason I started taking this supplement in the first place. I took it for only 10 weeks on my earlier success and all the improvement was lost a couple of months later, making it pretty unlikely that it could be a response to any antiandrogen.

So apparently Grape seed may be both a growth stimulant and a DHT inhibitor. It's weird that being such a promising supplement nobody talks about it in any forum.
I'm definitely going to give it a go and anything good or bad that comes from it I'll report here.

BTW this is the supplement I have been taking:
http://www.cebanatural.com/opc-capsulas-p-466-5.html

Note too that I've been on Rogaine foam + Keto 2% shampoo for 2 months now (though I plan to quit rogaine after summer).
And I'm taking photos monthly

 

[Armando Jose]

Bona sort.

 

[WangMQ]

WTF
But what's the actual improvement, if any? Like reduced sebum, less shedding?

 

[guybrush]

WTF
But what's the actual improvement, if any? Like reduced sebum, less shedding?

The improvement I noticed was thicker hair. It was 5 years ago but I remember the WTF moment when I noticed my hair was fuller.
I attributed it to the finpecia I had been taking for 3 months but now I know finasteride doesn't make any difference to my hair before the 7th month or so.

 

[Armando Jose]

Can you post some photos showing this improvement?

 

[guybrush]

I still keep the photos but I find them of little help because they are dark and my camera wasn't particularly good.
Depending on the ones you pick you can see improvement or not because hair length varies, I have minoxidil on in some but not in others, etc.

I'll try to see if I can find some that compare well to each other.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I take half a tablespoon of grapeseed oil a day. I don't know if it helps with anything but it might.

 

[Dench57]

Would like to hear Notcoolanymore's opinion on this.

 

[guybrush]

I tried my best but I think it's going to be of little use.

For some unknown reason the "after" photo with longer hair got more lightening from the cam. BTW in the "after cut" photo my hair is shorter and I have no minoxidil on, so it's hard to make a fair comparison.
But I remember it was the first time I couldn't see my scalp through my hair (with long hair) so I went to take the photos immediately.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Looks to me like you're holding steady.

 

[Armando Jose]

your hair density is very similar

 

[guybrush]

I agree hair doesn't look different in these photos but I'm still 99% sure it was thickening.

2 weeks into grape seed today. I'll report with better photos if I get lucky

 

[WangMQ]

I agree hair doesn't look different in these photos but I'm still 99% sure it was thickening.

2 weeks into grape seed today. I'll report with better photos if I get lucky

How are tihngs going?

And I thought grape seed extract was an antioxidant instead of 5AR inhibitor.

 

[WangMQ]

Ummmm....Just read these:

Green tea polyphenol EGCG blunts androgen receptor function in prostate cancer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3058706/

Pomegranate Polyphenols Downregulate Expression of Androgen Synthesizing Genes in Human Prostate Cancer Cells Overexpressing the Androgen Receptor:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2610864/

Polyphenols are the main active ingredient in grape, green tea, and pomegranate as I know.

Resveratrol, a polyphenol found in grapes, suppresses oxidative damage and stimulates apoptosis during early colonic inflammation in rats:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15013856

This one mentioned PGD2 and COX inhibition. I think the fact that you feel your hair has thickened (when it's actually maintaining as we see it) is because you previously had PGD2 related inflammation, which gives you a "weak hair" feeling. Grape seed extract got that relieved, making your scalp feel calmed, healthy and thus your hair felt stronger. I am very familiar with that feeling.

And I guess you might have something to talk about with this guy:
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interac...ss-of-Red-wine-every-night-and-see-thick-hair

(Forget about DHT. The male pattern baldness process is much more complicated than we thought. DHT is only one single factor in it.)

 

[guybrush]

1 month and 4 days now since taking that supplement. Also 2 months + 3 weeks into minoxidil.

I passed through the minoxidil shedding and I lost some noticeable hair but during this 3rd month things were getting better. This week I noticed I’ve lost some ground again though nothing dramatic. It may be a second shedding caused by the grape seed extract but who knows. A number of new hairs popping on the temples as usual when starting minoxidil.

I don't really spend much time counting hairs or examining my head so in the end I rely mostly on the pictures. What I'm giving here is just an overall feeling/perception. I also forget about the forum sometimes so excuse me if my replies come a bit late.

The explanation you gave about my thickening feeling makes sense to me. I remember my hair was feeling different. Not only thicker but also softer or more brilliant. Maybe it's just a cosmetic effect or maybe it gets better with time and you regrow hair. Again, I have no idea.

The supplement I'm taking contains green tea but I think it's a low dose. It also comes with some red wine extract.

 

[$illy $ymphony]

Grape seed extract is an aromatase inhibitor; so, if anything, it would increase DHT. However, the phenols likely have some positive effect.

 

[guybrush]

Grape seed extract is an aromatase inhibitor; so, if anything, it would increase DHT. However, the phenols likely have some positive effect.

I read that too in several posts but couldn't find a study backing such statement. My experience with Epilobium (potent aromatase inhibitor) and Finasteride (DHT inhibitor) tells me Grape seed feels more like the latter. I can be wrong though.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I too would like to see GSE tested in humans.

From the repository:
https://examine.com/supplements/grape-seed-extract/

Things To Know

Also Known As
GSE, OPC-3, Oligomeric Procyanidins, Procyanidin

Do Not Confuse With
Resveratrol (different molecule also from grapes), Pycnogenol (same molecules, but different source)


A lot of the 'benefits' from GSE are going to have cross-over with other plant compounds. Catechin and Epicatechin are in many things, and their benefits could underlie the benefits of many different herbs.
The Procyanidins themselves have very potent effects in vitro (especially anti-inflammatory and aromatase inhibiting) but the apparent poor bioavailability of GSE makes these pathways most likely either underpowered or less significant than the in vitro leads us to believe.
The poor bioavailability, however, is similar to Curcumin where it is interesting to see how they affect the colon and intestines where absorption is not needed


....

[h=3]2.3. Aromatase[/h]Aromatase (CYP1A1/2) is an enzyme in the P450 drug metabolism system that metabolizes some external drugs as well as converting the androgen class of hormones (such as testosterone) into the estrogen class.
The Procyanidin B dimers of GSE appear to be able to inhibit aromatase activity in a dose-dependent manner by competitive and reversible inhibition.[11] This aromatase inhibition was seen with wild-type and with 5/6 human mutants of aromatase, with the most effective inhibition curve being plotted between an IC50 value of 15-20uM[21] and concentrations of 40 and 60ug/mL GSE inhibit aromatase by 70.4% and 80.5%, respectively (20ug/mL also reduced activity, but was not significant in doing so).[11] This is more potent than most nutraceuticals, but less so than the 1.8uM IC50 associated with the Dehydroepiandrosterone metabolite Andro-3,5-diene-7,17-dione.[22] Another study noted a Ki value of 6uM,[21] and noted this was similar to the known aromatase inhibitor aminoglutethimide.[23] GSE may also negatively influence aromatase transcription, as incubation with 60ug/mL suppressed total aromatase mRNA content (MCF-7 and SK-BR-3 cells) while suppressing the expression of the I.3/II (23.7% and 5.4% of control, the two cell lines respectively), I.4 promoter (of most concern to breast cancer) to 34.5% and 17% of control, respectively, and I.6 promoters. There was no observed inhibition of I.1 promoters, and these reductions in promoter activity were not due to Proanthocyanidin Dimers B1 and B2.[11]
When given in vivo, a methanol-water fragment of GSE (contains Procyanidin B dimers) was able to suppress estrogen-responsive tumor growth when rats were implanted with androstenedione capsules; suggestive of aromatase inhibition.[24] This was replicated later by the same research group using 500 and 750mcg of GSE (total) in mice for 42 days, and suppression of tumor size via aromatase inhibition was again noted to 86.3% and 51.7% that of control.[11] This study did not indicate the weight of the mice, but assuming a standard weight of 24-28g for 8-week old female athymic mice used in this study[25] the 500mcg correlates to 178.5-208.3mg/kg bodyweight and based on rough estimates of 100mg/kg bodyweight equating 1g intake in humans, aromatase inhibiting potential may be seen at 2g GSE.

At least in rats, Grape Seed Extract (GSE) appears to have efficacy in inhibiting aromatase activity and aromatase transcription, and at least the former is quite potent. The dose used, when gone through rough conversions, appears to be quite high; direct human studies would be appreciated​

More at the link, I didn't realize that grapeseed extract and pinebark extract had the same molecules.

 

[guybrush]

I too would like to see GSE tested in humans.

From the repository:
https://examine.com/supplements/grape-seed-extract/



More at the link, I didn't realize that grapeseed extract and pinebark extract had the same molecules.

What puzzles me is that Epilobium sends my libido through the roof (supposedly boosting T) but grape seed extract, if anything, may lower it a bit.

Here they couldn't find any changes on estrogen levels of menopausal women, and they gave them doses up to 800mg, which is pretty high:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24670122

 

[WangMQ]

Grape seed extract is an aromatase inhibitor; so, if anything, it would increase DHT. However, the phenols likely have some positive effect.

I thought aromatase inhibitors increase T and reduces estrogens, which is important at avoiding sexual side effects.

But I might be making mistakes. I'm just starting to research into this complex network of hormone interrelations. As you keep looking it seems that every possible kind of hormone gets included...