Having finasteride. sides; what to do while waiting for bloodwork?

[Christopher83]

Hi all; longtime lurker. I am 27 and have been on finasteride. for three weeks. I started at 1 mg a day, but after some mild sides went down to .83 mg a day (cutting a 5 mg pill into 1/6 pieces).

Noticed tolerable sides within just a day or two; my testicles ached and my erections weren't quite as hard. Thought that all might have been in my head, but it seems to have gotten worse. My libido is fine—I'm still very horny—but I don't get random erections like I used it, and it takes more work to maintain them; it's starting to make sex with my wife difficult. Still could all be in my head, but it seems pretty real. I still get morning erections some days, but not others (though I don't know if it was always this way).

So I went in to see my doctor and get some routine blood work done (standard physical stuff; he wouldn't test all the hormones Enden recommended in another thread until the initial blood tests came back). He's going to wait three days until the blood work comes back to talk to me, but I'm not sure what to do in the meantime. Do I keep taking finasteride? Reduce the dosage?

I am ok suffering mild side effects while on the drug, and was hoping to try riding them out, but the thought that I could be doing permanent damage horrifies me. Frankly, this sucks. finasteride was my best chance at hair re-growth (it worked great for a very close relative) and I really wanted to give this a full-throttle try, but I'm getting really scared.

ANY advice/perspective/stories are appreciated. Thanks!

 

[G k]

Hi all; longtime lurker. I am 27 and have been on finasteride. for three weeks. I started at 1 mg a day, but after some mild sides went down to .83 mg a day (cutting a 5 mg pill into 1/6 pieces).

Noticed tolerable sides within just a day or two; my testicles ached and my erections weren't quite as hard. Thought that all might have been in my head, but it seems to have gotten worse. My libido is fine—I'm still very horny—but I don't get random erections like I used it, and it takes more work to maintain them; it's starting to make sex with my wife difficult. Still could all be in my head, but it seems pretty real. I still get morning erections some days, but not others (though I don't know if it was always this way).

So I went in to see my doctor and get some routine blood work done (standard physical stuff; he wouldn't test all the hormones Enden recommended in another thread until the initial blood tests came back). He's going to wait three days until the blood work comes back to talk to me, but I'm not sure what to do in the meantime. Do I keep taking finasteride? Reduce the dosage?

I am ok suffering mild side effects while on the drug, and was hoping to try riding them out, but the thought that I could be doing permanent damage horrifies me. Frankly, this sucks. finasteride was my best chance at hair re-growth (it worked great for a very close relative) and I really wanted to give this a full-throttle try, but I'm getting really scared.

ANY advice/perspective/stories are appreciated. Thanks!

Hey.

Many of us have been there. I'm at the end of being on finasteride for over a year. started with ED, then brainfog, then all types of other sides kicked in. I've been quit over a month and still haven't fully recovered, but I hope to hell I will.

Yours is a typical story of sides with finasteride.

Drug works great - Sides kick in -Lower dose, think you've found a good compromise - Sides amplify the longer you are on the drug, regardless of dose(even micro dose) - Quit finasteride, recover - Restart, sides back to where they were -Quit finasteride, recover even slower - Restart, sides the same - Quite, recover even slower - Start again....same result - Madness....madness....madness....

OK !

 

[Ende]

It's not in your head, that's for sure. It's elevated estrogen level. In my experience, there was no difference between 1 mg and 0.25 finasteride a day, regarding side effects. Lately I've been styding the half life of finasteride, and theoretically it's a chance that lowering the dose will releave the side effects a bit, but it'll also compromise the result long term. 0.05 mg is the minimum effective dose;

1 mg (mg - hours)
0.5 - 6
0.25 - 12
0.125 - 18
0.0625 - 24

0.5 mg (mg - hours)
0.25 - 6
0.125 - 12
0.0625 - 18
0.03125 - 24

0.25 mg (mg - hours)
0.125 - 6
0.0625 - 12
0.03125 - 18
0.015625 - 24

I recommend that you continue treatment with finasteride for a couple of weeks, and use 50 mg of zinc every day in addition. It works as an aromatase inhibitor, shifting the testosterone/estrogen ratio in favor of testosterone. See if it gets better, if not, quit finasteride and continue with zinc.

 

[Christopher83]

Thanks, guys!

@GK - How long did it take for you to recover? Did you ever get back to 100%?

@Enden - Thanks for the researched advice; I really respect your opinion. So you don't think I'd be risking any permanent loss of function if I continued on finasteride? If that's the case, I'm more than willing to give it a go for a few more weeks (blood test results barring) and see how it plays out. I started taking 50 mg of Zinc maybe about five days ago, but haven't noticed much change (also started taking Ginseng).

Do users often report harder erections after a few weeks/months as their body adjusts to the medicine? I have read that side effects go away

Also, if finasteride is capable of doing long-term damage (a premise I'm not sure I fully by, but one I certainly fear), how long would one have to be on it for that damage to occur? I'm trying to stick with the science here and not get too caught up in fear, but it's hard when the stakes are so high.

Thanks again!

 

[Ende]

There is always a risk, so you have to make the decision yourself. I believe that you've a good chance of recovering with zinc while using finasteride, but there is no doubt that the recovery will be easier if you quit the drug. You could quit, and restart treatment with a maintenance dose of zinc when you have recovered. If quitting is your choice, stay on course. Do not stop and start treatment again before you've recovered.

The side effects will not subside on their own. The estrogen level will continue to raise, so it's important to react immediately.

Finasteride is able to cause secondary hypogonadism, and people are struggling to recover for some reason. My endocrine system was wrecked within 4 months, and I'm currently working on my recovery.

Btw, Dr. Shippen recommends 50 - 100 mg of zinc every day. You could increase the dose if you tolerate more than 50 mg.

 

[Christopher83]

Usually take finasteride. right before bed (under the logic sexual sides will be worst right after I take it, so hopefully they'll be less during the next day). Skipped my first dose Tuesday night, by Wednesday night I was already feeling able to perform better; that gives me confidence I haven't done any real damage (and that I can maybe rebound from some of these sides, which are still mostly mild).

Still not sure whether I'm going to go all back on the drug and commit to waiting out sides, or whether I'm just going to quit and spare myself the anxiety. I'm going to wait until I get my bloodwork back tomorrow before I start taking the drug again. If my bloodwork is mostly fine, I can sort of assume the drug isn't doing much damage (or the sides are mostly psychosomatic) and carry on. If the bloodwork is questionable, I'm not going to risk it.

Side note: I'm afraid my general doctor just doesn't know much about this drug and doesn't have much insight to give. I'm trying to find a dermatologist who presumably would have more experience working with hair loss, this drug and its side effects, and can guide me through this process and give me advice I can feel confidence in, but it'll take weeks to get an appointment and insurance makes it a pain. Think it's worth the effort?

@Enden How do you feel now? Did you ever get your abilities back? Do you regret taking finasteride? If you could do it all over again, would you do it the same?

 

[Ende]

It doesn't matter when you take your pill, because the enzymes are supressed efficiently for more than 24 hours anyway. When you quit, your testosterone level drops a bit, because some of it gets converted to DHT. I strongly recommend that you wait until you've recovered before going back on treatment, to avoid more fluctuations in the hormone levels.

Sadly, your blood test will probably not reveal anything if you don't have baseline values to compare with. If you're lucky, your estrogen level will be high. Everything will most likely appear normal according to standards. The purpose of this blood test, is to lay the fundament for a series of blood tests, to keep track of changes, if things should turn out bad. However, you've caught it early, so I think you'll be fine.

The drug is doing damage to you, and I assure you that the changes are physical and real, it's not something that you're imagening. The doctors doesn't know anything. Even most of the endocrinologists are clueless when it comes to this subject. If your doctor think that everything is fine just by seeing that every hormone is in range, walk away. How certain hormone levels are in relation to each other, is just as important that they're in range, but most doctors don't understand that. They don't understand the significance of something as easy as the testosterone/estrogen ratio. No wonder they're unable to understand the complex which finasteride is able to create. In worst case scenario, finasteride is able to affect at least 9 hormones by blocking the 5AR type 2 enzyme. Those are;

- DHT
- LH and FSH (reduction due to negative feedback mechanism)
- testosterone (raises as a natural consequence due to blocking the 5AR type 2 enzyme)
- androstendion (excessive testosterone converting back to androstendion)
- estrogen (increased aromatase activity)
- prolactin and SHBG (upregulated by estrogen)
- dopamine (reduced by prolactin)

There was also a study which linked a reduction in the DHT level to reduction in a couple of neurohormones in the brain. As you see, all but DHT are indirectly affected.

I'm on testosterone replacement therapy and a couple of other medications. Self medicating because I didn't get any professional help. I tried for one year. Walked the whole line from several GP's to a specialist who just turned me down, regardless of several severe symptoms of elevated estrogen level and hypogonadism, and a blood test which revealed low testosterone level, and a estrogen level slightly ABOVE the range. I've almost recovered now, but I've been struggling to tune the testosterone/estrogen ratio, becuase they didn't even want to support me with blood tests. This affects my libido and erections negatively. Good news is, the norwegian board of health supervision is now forcing my GP to give me access to blood tests. I'm doing the first test tomorrow. My erections are softer because of atrophied penile muscles too, but kegel exercises are improving the condition.

No regrets, but I wish someone told me this, so I could take care of the side effects before they advanced to the point where recovery was impossible without drug support. I'm angry because they didn't map my hormone levels before giving me Propecia. At least I would have got professional help. If I could start over again with the knowledge I now have, I would do it. No doubt.

On the other side, if I'm wrong, this will be the end of me. There is no way I can live like this. But still, no regrets.

 

[G k]

On the other side, if I'm wrong, this will be the end of me. There is no way I can live like this. But still, no regrets.[/quote]


Hey man, hang in there. I know how awful this sh*t is.

Its like it destroys your interest in everything. Your very spark for life. You couldn't even explain it to someone who hasn't experienced this dark void. I think anyone would kill themselves if they were doomed to this fate for life. Man I remember having a full thick head of hair, everyone just thinking I looked so good.....But the way I felt...god what is the point.

But you will get better man, just keep working at it. The body can take a while to adjust back to it, have faith man.

 

[Ende]

I do have faith, but I must admit there have been times with doubt. However, things are looking good now. A lot is happening, and more people are involved. I'm more sure now, than I've ever been of anything. Thank you though, for the encouragement

 

[Mens Rea]

It doesn't matter when you take your pill, because the enzymes are supressed efficiently for more than 24 hours anyway. When you quit, your testosterone level drops a bit, because some of it gets converted to DHT. I strongly recommend that you wait until you've recovered before going back on treatment, to avoid more fluctuations in the hormone levels.

Sadly, your blood test will probably not reveal anything if you don't have baseline values to compare with. If you're lucky, your estrogen level will be high. Everything will most likely appear normal according to standards. The purpose of this blood test, is to lay the fundament for a series of blood tests, to keep track of changes, if things should turn out bad. However, you've caught it early, so I think you'll be fine.

The drug is doing damage to you, and I assure you that the changes are physical and real, it's not something that you're imagening. The doctors doesn't know anything. Even most of the endocrinologists are clueless when it comes to this subject. If your doctor think that everything is fine just by seeing that every hormone is in range, walk away. How certain hormone levels are in relation to each other, is just as important that they're in range, but most doctors don't understand that. They don't understand the significance of something as easy as the testosterone/estrogen ratio. No wonder they're unable to understand the complex which finasteride is able to create. In worst case scenario, finasteride is able to affect at least 9 hormones by blocking the 5AR type 2 enzyme. Those are;

- DHT
- LH and FSH (reduction due to negative feedback mechanism)
- testosterone (raises as a natural consequence due to blocking the 5AR type 2 enzyme)
- androstendion (excessive testosterone converting back to androstendion)
- estrogen (increased aromatase activity)
- prolactin and SHBG (upregulated by estrogen)
- dopamine (reduced by prolactin)

There was also a study which linked a reduction in the DHT level to reduction in a couple of neurohormones in the brain. As you see, all but DHT are indirectly affected.

I'm on testosterone replacement therapy and a couple of other medications. Self medicating because I didn't get any professional help. I tried for one year. Walked the whole line from several GP's to a specialist who just turned me down, regardless of several severe symptoms of elevated estrogen level and hypogonadism, and a blood test which revealed low testosterone level, and a estrogen level slightly ABOVE the range. I've almost recovered now, but I've been struggling to tune the testosterone/estrogen ratio, becuase they didn't even want to support me with blood tests. This affects my libido and erections negatively. Good news is, the norwegian board of health supervision is now forcing my GP to give me access to blood tests. I'm doing the first test tomorrow. My erections are softer because of atrophied penile muscles too, but kegel exercises are improving the condition.

No regrets, but I wish someone told me this, so I could take care of the side effects before they advanced to the point where recovery was impossible without drug support. I'm angry because they didn't map my hormone levels before giving me Propecia. At least I would have got professional help. If I could start over again with the knowledge I now have, I would do it. No doubt. I suppose that would be "finasteride syndrome" not post, though.

On the other side, if I'm wrong, this will be the end of me. There is no way I can live like this. But still, no regrets.

Excellent post Enden. And thank you for our continued in-depth discussions on this matter, ive learnt alot of you and have used it as a springboard to my own research, as you well know


The only thing i do thing is crazy is that you continue to take the drug. If there's one thing that i learnt from my body was that, the longer i took the drug, the worse the condition got. The supression on DHT WILL cause trouble to individuals like you and I who have shown a sensitivity to it. Someone like Christopher there who has learned he is also sensitive should do the smart thing and get off the stuff. If a few tablets effect you now, think about how it'll be worse after a years use. Bear in mind some guys dont get hit at all until like 4-5 years then all of a sudden their body completely caves beyond repair. Essentially the guys getting really quick sides have shown a strong sensitivity to the drug and in almost all cases will develop bad sides, potentially permanent ones.

As Enden said, the hormones are all linked to a very precise, fine tuned balance. The difficulty in rebalancing 4-5 hormones to their prior state is something even far beyond most (seemingly all) endochronogists, certainly without base figures!! I believe advanced "post-finasteride syndrum" is much more complicated that 4-5 hormones too; i believe the effects seep right through our bodies and slowly decay (with continued use anyway). For instance if i kept taking finasteride for say 10 years, i would have effectively castrated myself. No doubt about it.

Some people get lucky, but many dont. Not to mention the damage the distorted balances may do on other parts of your body that you barely even realise are connected. For instance, your liver is connected. Your adrenals and on the line. Your petruity can even get damaged. Thyroid problems you've never had before. Prostratitus. People speculate about androgen resistance. All these things are real (androgen resistance is complicated though we arent sure about this one).

For anyone to mess with these things AFTER they are warned and AFTER their body has signaled sensitivity, for the sake of a drug that probably wont even do THAT much good for them anyway, is a beyound my comprehension. Just go on propeciahelp, most guys on there just want to be healthy, the hair loss issue becomes of little important when one's physical quality of life is destroyed.

Enden, i know you know alot more about this than me, but you'll be the first to admit that you are experimenting with your treatments etc.....alot of people on propeciahelp, including me, have had most of their problems AFTER they quit, often causing people's systems to crash. This is why i think being on finasteride and TRT etc at the same time is if anything creating a even more complex problem. Our bodies are too complicated for us to to try balance opposite effects of a cocktail of drugs. If you pull the plug on one of those drugs after sustained use, it could do wreck havoc with your body.

I mean, people's bodies are adaptable, but think about it. These finely tuned hormone levels have perfected themselves over millions of years of evolution. They arent made to be tampered with. I dont think our bodies are made to be tamped with. Continued manipulation of our hormones levels could be very problematic in the long run.

 

[Ende]

There is always a reason, mate. Anyway, I don't think anyone is predisposed to severe side effects. I believe that all depends on the aromatase activity in every individual. If what you say was true, I wouldn't have been able to reverse and manage side effects from finasteride. The drug affects a lot of hormones, but it's mainly a chain reaction. Whether your testosterone comes from your balls or regular injections, doesn't matter. I didn't have access to blood tests, so my only option were to bypass the HPTA. Estrogen is the key hormone. Control it, and everything else will follow. Of course, DHT deficiency plays a role. I don't see the whole picture, yet.

People on propeciahelp have all experienced severe side effects from finasteride. That's why they quit. A lot of people have reported improvement after quitting, before they suddenly crash, and are worse off than they were. I quote myself;

Hypothesis, persistent side effects
When someone quit the drug, the testosterone level decreases further because of conversion to DHT. I believe that, if this burst of DHT isn't enough to counter the excessive estrogen, the side effects will persist. Whatever DHT the body manages to produce afterwards, isn't enough to restore the balance.

 

[Christopher83]

If all the allegations on PropeciaHelp are true, though, why has there never been an actual study on this? I don't doubt there claims, but it seems the science just doesn't back up the allegations they are making.

 

[Mens Rea]

If all the allegations on PropeciaHelp are true, though, why has there never been an actual study on this? I don't doubt there claims, but it seems the science just doesn't back up the allegations they are making.

Studies are pending and will take time. Remember, most studies are done by big companies like merck so they have the resources and monetary motivations. We don't....

There are loads of reports from doctors talking about their patients etc....so these are first hand studies. There's also lots of actual studies on the mechanics of why finasteride causes such bad sides, have a read if you wish.

 

[Mens Rea]

Christopher


http://www.propeciahelp.com/case-studies


Have a look

What more do you want?

 

[G k]

Christopher


http://www.propeciahelp.com/case-studies


Have a look

What more do you want?

That is so frighting... I'm so glad I got off this bio-weapon because I was surely going down that path.

This is a tricky situation because for those on the drugs and growing hair without sides(or w/o noticing sides), of course they will want to dispell these propecia "myths"...

But for those like myself who grew tons of hair but then experienced almost every side I read about(after experiencing them)...That is very eerie.

But anyway it will of course be hard for the two groups of minds to agree, however one only needs to look at the track record of big pharma and the FDA....

On a lighter note, I have noticed that topical spironolactone is doing me a lot of good. I'm not sure if I will get any regrowth but man I have a significant reduction in shedding while I use it in combination with minoxidil.

 

[Hate2LoseIt]

It's not in your head, that's for sure. It's elevated estrogen level. In my experience, there was no difference between 1 mg and 0.25 finasteride a day, regarding side effects. Lately I've been styding the half life of finasteride, and theoretically it's a chance that lowering the dose will releave the side effects a bit, but it'll also compromise the result long term. 0.05 mg is the minimum effective dose;

1 mg (mg - hours)
0.5 - 6
0.25 - 12
0.125 - 18
0.0625 - 24

0.5 mg (mg - hours)
0.25 - 6
0.125 - 12
0.0625 - 18
0.03125 - 24

0.25 mg (mg - hours)
0.125 - 6
0.0625 - 12
0.03125 - 18
0.015625 - 24

I recommend that you continue treatment with finasteride for a couple of weeks, and use 50 mg of zinc every day in addition. It works as an aromatase inhibitor, shifting the testosterone/estrogen ratio in favor of testosterone. See if it gets better, if not, quit finasteride and continue with zinc.

Dude, somehow that little half life example you showed seems irrelevent. Im not too good on all the science of this stuff but im pretty sure finasteride doesnt work like that in terms of effeciveness. Regardless of the numbers, i believe the dht stays suppressed for a certain amount of time in the body which is longer than the half life examples you posted.

Look at the people that pop finasteride every other day. People have success with this, also with wit low dose finasteride.

 

[barcafan]

finasteride is almost a flat dose response, .1 mg is about 90% as effective as 5 mg.

What make you think you can benefit from the hair saving effects but also get rid of the nasty side effects by lowering the dose?

 

[Ende]

Dude, somehow that little half life example you showed seems irrelevent. Im not too good on all the science of this stuff but im pretty sure finasteride doesnt work like that in terms of effeciveness. Regardless of the numbers, i believe the dht stays suppressed for a certain amount of time in the body which is longer than the half life examples you posted.

Look at the people that pop finasteride every other day. People have success with this, also with wit low dose finasteride.

Yes, you're right about DHT supression. I think one dose of 1 mg supresses the serum DHT level for more than a week, but don't confuse it with local DHT availability. The problem is that a lot of 5AR type 2 enzymes are located at the top of your head. 0.05 mg is said to be as effective as 1 mg, but obviously not for as long. If testosterone converts to DHT on your head, it's going straight to your sebum glands and hair. When the receptors are saturated, it'll travel around your body untill it finds something to bind to. Same for every area loaded with those enzymes.

Anyway, this is just theoretically, and we're talking about maximum effect.

 

[Christopher83]

Ok, so I'm still waiting on bloodtest results—frustrating!—but I heard over the phone that my testosterone levels are somewhere in the 400s (I think maybe 423?) Is that anything to be worried about?

I know the average range is between 200-800, so it seems a little low, but I'm not sure what to do about it. I've stopped taking finasteride for now, and I'm continuing to take zinc. I don't want to over-medicate myself, but I do want to get my testosterone up, right?

 

[Christopher83]

Got the blood test back; Testosterone was indeed 422. Doctor says that's normal; is it?

He wants me to go back on finasteride with a reduced dosage of .5 mg a day and try that for two weeks. I asked if that could do long-term damage, and he said no, you can only do long term damage if you are on the drug long term. What do you guys think? Can it hurt to try the reduced dosage for two weeks? This is my one shot at regaining hair, so I don't want to blow it out of fear, but I also don't want to ruin my sex life permanently, either.