Home made laser device - need advice

[hairymonster]

Hi

After having bought a power grow laser comb and seeing the material on http://www.overmachogrande.com about laser therapy, it looks like the only way to get any results from laser therapy is to not using the low power hand held devices out there but make one. When I look at http://www.konftec.com/html/ko_product_hair_loss_home.htm it implies from their laser biostimulation' picture that lasers OVER 5mw give better reach to the hair follicles and also the collimated (focussed?) ones reach deeper than the dispersion laser (difussed?). OMG says 5mw is the standard and there is no difference in the depth of reach but it seems to me that the focussed ones would naturally reach further as it would in a focussed torch. Can anyone confirm if only 5mw diodes is enough and also if the focussed ones are better at reaching the hair follicles? Also, the laser hoods on konftec use 660nm not 650 and some use large quantity of 940nm diodes. Is this neceesary or can I stick with 650nm 5mw?

 

[hairhoper]

This is not a particularly laser-friendly forum (because it's an open/honest forum where people like to advise others to stick to treatments that work) so most people are probably going to say the same as me.

Don't waste your cash. Whether you use 650nm 5mw lasers or you instead cut up a toy lightsaber, tape it to your head and make pyew pyew noises the results will be the same.

 

[hairymonster]

But aren't there studies showing their usefulness (I'm not talking about the crappy handhelds). Are you suggesting the LLLT therapy used at hairloss centres are nothing but light shows? Is it all a scam?

 

[lothar972]

The studies that have been done on lllt show that it is at the very least somewhat effective. Anecdotal reports are mixed as they are with every other treatment. I am not really sure why lllt doesn't get more respect. I didn't even start looking into it until a few days ago because everyone acts like it does nothing at all, only to see rather impressive studies, before/afters, etc. I am building a device for myself to see how it works for me.

I am not sure about depth, but when the 5mw lasers are as close together as OMG suggests you supposedly get the proper joules of bio-stimulation. Some people have to reduce the time they use their devices so this seems to be true. If you aren't, then you can just use it longer. You don't want over-stimulation either.

As far as the 650s go, OMG made a post that someone tested a bunch of them (I think zix creator?) and they are actually like 658w. He speculated that they are calling them 660s because of that but who knows. Email OMG the picture and see what he says about depth.

 

[hairhoper]

Are you suggesting the LLLT therapy used at hairloss centres are nothing but light shows? Is it all a scam?

Yep. Total scam.

 

[hairymonster]

Thanks lothar972, I'm not crazy then! I will give it a try then on the principle that there is some effect produced buy you need sufficient power, probably like with a helmet for longer exposure.

I see hairhoper's comment "Yes it is a scam", is this from first hand experience using a powerful clinic device of several 100 mw or a power grow gimic comb device?

 

[hairhoper]

No it's from reading enough about the subject to know there's no proof it works and it's total bullshit.

I'm not naïve enough to ever buy any of those devices.

 

[lothar972]

I don't really know how you can say there is no proof if you have read significantly on the topic.

Surely you came across this study:

http://www.regrowth.com/lowlevellaserth ... opecia.cfm

Year long, double blind, placebo controlled study that showed very significant results for LLLT. Not only did it provide growth stimulant effects, but the rate of decline after peaking looks much slower than placebo. I am sure you have seen the minoxidil vs finasteride charts where minoxidil adds regrowth and then continues to decline at the same speed as placebo.

However, Hairhoper, you are right that no one should buy a LLLT device (build your own) because they are often too weak to provide significant effect, and marked a lot. Anyways my lasers came in today to build my own. I will see if it works for me.

 

[hairhoper]

No f*****g way in hell I'm trusting a study that comes from this company:
http://www.corporacioncapilar.es/

There is no proof lasers work. Period.

 

[lothar972]

Well then choose a different study to look at if you don't like that particular one for some reason.

Or maybe read an article about how they can help. http://spaego.com/fr/clinicalStudies/Ha ... lStudy.pdf

 

[hairhoper]

Right so I should keep reading studies by people who sell lasers.

*MASSIVE ROLLEYES*

Wake up. They're all scam artists. No genuine studies. Nothing.

Lasers don't work.

 

[lothar972]

There are hundreds of studies on LLLT and thousands of papers written about it. They are not all done by people who are selling products. They aren't all on hair loss of course seeing as LLLT is used to treat lots of different problems.

This is a nice journal (with 28 sources) showing how LLLT can reduce inflammation, promote healing, etc. Notice how it increases SOD levels, something that is generally accepted to promote hair growth.

http://www.brogemeyer.dk/Laser-Accelerated.html

 

[ozadam]

Im not sure about lasers and I would not trust any studies done by laser manufacturers.

Is there anyone who claims results from using lasers?

lots of lasers here, http://s.dealextreme.com/search/laser.html?sort=-Price

 

[ozadam]

They say the hairmax laser comb is FDA approved, Im wondering why its not used by more people?

 

[lothar972]

FDA approval doesn't really mean anything in this case. That device is vastly underpowered and has a huge markup. It would be like using 0.01% minoxidil or something and then claiming minoxidil does nothing. There are plenty of people who claim positive results if you look around. I never looked into it until recently because everyone seems to dismiss it as a scam, but I am glad I took the time to read forums, sites, studies, etc for a few days.

Don't buy a laser brush. (or generally any commercial laser device without doing a lot of research, better to build your own)

 

[hairhoper]

This is a nice journal (with 28 sources) showing how LLLT can reduce inflammation, promote healing, etc. Notice how it increases SOD levels, something that is generally accepted to promote hair growth.

http://www.brogemeyer.dk/Laser-Accelerated.html

Okay but there's a huge difference between promoting hair growth and causing hypertrichosis (even when used in the presence of Androgenetic Alopecia) like minoxidil does.

A shampoo might contain ingredients that could promote hair growth (thicker/faster growing hair) in a normal subject but be totally useless to someone with male pattern baldness.

I'm willing to be proven wrong of course so could you share any Androgenetic Alopecia related laser studies that you think are really convincing?

 

[DM5sadouche]

If lasers really regrew hair this would be all over the place. It would be on the front pages of every newspapers in the country. It would be headlining the news reports from NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, Fox, etc. The fact is that there isn't alot of national news about lasers and hair growth should tell most people all they need to know. Stick with proven treatments and don't waste your money.

 

[baroudeur]

at least you won't get banned from this forum if you think lllt is a "scam" or even doesnt work"
i got a helmet from OMG but it was not easy to be consistent
i was convinced by all the before/after pictures he sent me
but i have never seen some real before/after pictures like the ones he sent me
i have used the helmet for 3 months with his "protocol" and never used it ,maybe it can help maybe not

never understood also why even if you just have a little doubt on lllt you were banned from their forums......

 

[baroudeur]

taking this supplements and using laser helmet i regrew 2 hairs here and 1 on my forehead
:dunno:

 

[lothar972]

Hairhoper: Yes, true. When I said promoting hair growth I meant in reference to increasing density, thickness, etc not in a making your hair grow faster sort of way. SOD's are supposed to reverse fibrosis, and other stuff that I don't know much about. http://www.hairlosshelp.com/hair_loss_r ... _a_SOD.cfm This is only one of the ways that LLLT is shown to affect hair so I was just using it as an example. As far as studies go I don't know of any other double blind, placebo controlled ones that are clear as the one I sent before with charts and photographs. The Harvard Med article I posted before had reference to two hair growth related studies I think, if you want to look there. This list of studies is also thrown around a lot. http://www.palmbeachglamhair.com/Report ... 20Loss.pdf

LLLT is used to treat so many other things its strange that people think it could have no effect on hair loss. I typed LLLT into the clinicaltrials site for the US and came across one using it to treat hearing loss. http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT0 ... lt&rank=23

"Low level laser therapy is believed to stimulate the mitochondria of the adipocyte cells, which subsequently increases the production of ATP. The resultant surge in ATP production works to repair damaged tissue and regenerate cells reversing some of the damage incurred to the cochlea and thus improving aspects of hearing function."

Anyways I think its kind of annoying that some people say lasers have no effect on hairloss when they repair fibrosis, change sod and no levels, prevent inflammation, etc. Obviously it wont be effective for everyone but even if it is only somewhat effective it is another thing people can be doing to help. I am very sensitive to side effects of medications so something like this seems good for me.


DM5sadouche: No, no, no.... This is the ridiculous attitude that keeps people from learning about other treatments. If I go check the news right now should I be hearing about finasteride and minoxidil? If they could do something like regrow a full head of hair in anyone, then, yes. Otherwise it isn't going to show up all over the news, especially since they were found do grow hair, when, like over 40 years ago. Besides that hairmax lasercomb was one of the time magazine inventions of the year or whatever when it was released. It was based on the successful technology used in laser hair clinics, however, at a much much much smaller dose.


baroudeur: First of all, stopping your hair loss sounds like a success to me even if you only saw "three" hairs regrow. Especially in only 3 months! Stick with it for a year before you decice. It takes some people 9 months before they even begin to see regrowth. Fibrosis isn't reversed overnight.