How many grafts would it take to get what I want?

[Guest]

This is some guy's after hair transplant shot that I took from Dr. Cole's website. Hope he doesn't mind. Anyway, how many grafts do you guys think it would take to fill this in with non-see thru density?

The reason I ask is that this guy's after-hair transplant shot seems pretty similar to my before shot:

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Now the RED line in my picture is my crude tracing of my CURRENT hairline location, and the GREEN line is where I want to move it to, back to its juvenile position.

I am definitely considering an hair transplant for my hairline after I finish with school, just as a present to myself. I will have the income to justify it and would probably be looking to get one sometime between January 2011 and June 2011, right around age 27. I will have been on Avodart for at least 4 and a half years at this point in time. Assuming that I do not lose any hair between then and now, I think it is safe to say that I will not lose any more. I did Rassman's brow test and raised my eyebrows as far as I could, and marked the highest line on it on my computer, then transferred it to the second picture above. This is my best approximation of where my juvenile hairline is. Now I know that some guys on here say that transplanting people's juvenile hairlines back is stupid, because people should be happy with an NW1.5 or NW2 or whatever, but if someone has the money, why not? I do think the rough sketch of a hairline that I drew above would look better on it. It is not ridiculously low and I am not really lowering it much. The center wouldn't be coming down more than a quarter inch, the left temple would need to come down only about half an inch, and the right temple only about 3/4ths of an inch, or 4/5ths of an inch maybe.

I know I posted one here before but that was when I was talking about transplanting into my diffuse areas, which have since improved considerably. Now the only area I want to transplant is directly in front of my present hairline, so shock loss should not be an issue. I would like some advice, and I guess you guys can tell me that you don't think I should transplant my juvenile hairline or whatever because a) it will look stupid, b) I should be happy with something else, or c) if I do this and go bald I'll look stupid. In my estimation, the only valid argument of these three is argument c, and I think it's a moot point if I've kept my hair until early 2011. If I haven't, obviously, and continue to bald, then I will not lower my hairline. That would be stupid. But right now I have maintained my hair for 18 months on drugs. 1.5 months on Proscar and 16.5 months on Avodart. I am talking about giving the drugs another 36 months at least to work, because I don't have the money right now anyway.

I estimate the area I want to fill in to be 32 cm/2, maximum. I am not an expert on graft estimation but my estimation, if I wanted 70 g/cm2 density in the area behind the green line, it would take 2240 grafts. I want the same density in the transplanted grafts that I have currently in front. So if I was like that guy in the first pic, with pretty thick hairline, I'd want the same thing in front too. Everyone always says that you can only hope for the illusion of more hair, but not real thickness. I assume they're talking about 50 cm/2. I gotta think that 75 or 80 g/cm2 would be pretty damned close to the probably 100 g/cm2 that I had originally in this area. I doubt anyone would be able to tell the difference- what do you think?

if I wanted 75 g/cm2 density in the areas behind the green line I drew leading up to my hair, I would need about 2400 grafts. If I do indeed have 8000 available to me, as I was told, and which makes sense to me, because this hairdresser who knows the treatments I'm on and the state of my hair constantly remarks to me how THICK the sides and back of my hair are. My hair is dark brown which isn't fantastic for transplantation but my hair also has a bit of wave to it, and even some curl whe n it's longer, so it will cover better than straight hair. My sides are thick as I said and go all the way up to the outer edges of my eyelid on each side of my face. My back hair is thick and so is my crown hair. I was concerned about the whole frontal third a year ago because it was diffuse, but now it has mostly filled in. I don't want to be accused of hair greed or whatever because hair transplants are a cosmetic and elective procedure, so no one should have to justify getting it done.

So like I said, I'm wondering how many grafts you guys think it would take to fill that area in up to the green line with density that can't be seen through. I estimated that it would take 75 g/cm2 transplanted here to ENSURE that the hairline and temples would be thick and not see through. I estimated the area that I want to fill as 32 cm/2. Does this look right to you guys? I could obviously go to 80 cm/2 density if necessary because thta would only require 160 grafts in the area more in the area than 75 g/cm2, a total of 2560. And don't think I'm nuts but I'd be willing to transplant this area up to 90 cm/2. That would require 2880. I'm not going below my juvenile hairline location. As you can see from the green line, my juvenile hairline was never that low. The line I drew is juvenile in nature but it's probably at least a quarter or third of an inch above the average person's juvenile hairline.

But let's just go with 80 g/cm2 as what I want. That's 2560 grafts, less than one third of my available donor supply. If I did start to bald again at some age like 40, which I seriously doubt, I could live with having a thinner crown or mid scalp. I've read plenty of posts though and this is incredibly rare to have rapid loss if you've maintained well for ~5 years on the drugs. And I even regrew quite a BIT on dutasteride, so I have real justification for believeing that I am a way above average responder to Avodart, arguably top 10% if not top 5%. So I definitely feel comfortable saying that I don't think I'll ever lose any noticeable hair as long as I'm on it. You may disagree but it's hard to argue with the logic- Bryan and Doctor agree. So yeah. Comments welcomed. I'd like some guys on here who know what they're talking about to estimate the area that I want to fill in behind the line and tell me if I'm right that it's about 32 centimeters squared. I think it is that max. It may be even less. I'd also like comments on the hairline shape that I drew. It's obviously just a rough sketch and it's not even perfectly symmetrical as I want it to be, but it's tough for me to draw one in MS Paint.

I'd also like some discussion on whether FUE or strip is the best method for me. I assume that guys will say FUE because of the relatively small graft count I guess? If it's 2560 grafts then I don't mind going 3 days in a row to a Doctor and getting 850 grafts done or so each day. What's the going rate for FUE grafts anyway? I know strip would probably cost me about $4.50 per graft from the average good Doctor for the amoutn I'm getting. I'm guessing FUe is probably between $7 and $10 per graft. That's a big difference, and I hate how I look with a shaved head. I have heard that the scar would allow me to buzz my head down to a #3, and that's definitely shorter than I ever see myself going. I didn't hate my half inch buzz with a 4 I guess, so a 4 would be the shortest I'd ever let any area on my head be buzzed/cut to. That's the only reason to get an FUE over strip, right? And like I said before, I have great side and back density, with thickness and a wavy quality to the hair. So even if my graft count is only 7k, I will still have 4500 left over for any slight thinning that might happen afterward. I doubt I'd ever need another hair transplant after this one though. Like I said, I'm not getting one for at least 3 years from now, so I have a lot of time to think about it and consult with all the best doctors

Can anyone tell me if there are doctors who would not do this for me? I know that a guy like Armani would obviously, because he will be aggressive when it's what the customer wants, but if I go the strip route, would Hasson and Wong ever agree to do this for me? Or do you guys think that they will insist that I accept the mature hairline and only transplant 1000 grafts or so maximum to make my right temple match my left. We can have some suggestions of doctors to go to for this in the thread but I don't want this to turn into another classic hair transplant forum thread war where people go back and forth bitching about doctors. If that happens, I'm just going to ask Cassin to lock it. Thanks guys. I've given a lot back to this site in hours and posts helping out other people so I hope you can help me out at all in an area that I know considerably less about because I've never had one, and this isn't an area of the forum that I spend a lot of time in.

So to sum up:

1) Can you guys estimate the area in cm/2 that I want to fill in from my pic?

2) Estimate what density in g/cm2 I'd need to transplant at to make it not see through. My guess is 75 and up as I said to ensure it.

3) Recommend FUE or strip

4) Recommend doctors

5) Recommend hairline placement- whether I should do a V-shape instead(somewhat convex) or stick with the curved juvenile hairline(concave).


And like I said, ignore the fact that the line I drew really sucks and isn't symmetrical. I think you can get an idea of what I'm looking for.



Thanks,
JayMan

 

[s.a.f]

Re: How many grafts would it take to do this?

Depends on the density 1000? maybe a little more.
Or if its Armani lower it another half inch and dense pack with 4000. unk: :woot:
Personally I see that as totally unnecesary. :dunno: I think it looks better like that than lower.

 

[Guest]

Re: How many grafts would it take to do this?

Lol saf. Like I said, i don't want to lower it below the hairline I had as a child. There is no reason for that ever in my opinion, so I drew the line based on the Rassman test of raising my eyebrows and tracing the highest forehead crease around. The green line is where my juvenile hairline used to be. It has receded slightly since then.

Question: if you estimate 1000, how big do you think the area in cm/2 is? Only 14 or so? And what density were you estimating the 1000 grafts based on? Because like I said, I don't want see through density so I think I'm looking at at least 75 g/cm2 to ensure total thickness, right?

 

[s.a.f]

Re: How many grafts would it take to do this?

Its probably about 12cm2. You'd have to go the FUE route in order to be able to pick enough singles. A strip yeilds mostly 2's and 3's only about 20-ish% singles.

 

[Guest]

Re: How many grafts would it take to do this?

Hey SAF I realized that my current hairline is higher than I traced it at, and also differently shaped. So I just changed the pic above in my post. It's still a crude line, but would you still estimate that it's only about 12 cm/2, or would you say it's more like 15 cm/2 now? Thanks.

And when you say have to go the FUE route, do you mean that I'd have to get the whole thing FUE? I was thinking that the front half of the transplanted area would be packed with singles and the area behind it could be packed with two's and some threes- could maybe use strip for that? Is it possible to get both done in the same week? So something like 1000 FUE grafts and then maybe 1500 strip behind it?

And I notice you said 20%ish singles. WOuld it be possible to pack all the singles in the very front and then all the twos behind it, then the threes, and get away with the entire thing being strip? Or would it look very fake? I was thinking maybe could densepack all the singles from the strip in the very front

Thanks,
JayMan

 

[s.a.f]

Re: How many grafts would it take to do this?

And when you say have to go the FUE route, do you mean that I'd have to get the whole thing FUE? I was thinking that the front half of the transplanted area would be packed with singles and the area behind it could be packed with two's and some threes- could maybe use strip for that? Is it possible to get both done in the same week? So something like 1000 FUE grafts and then maybe 1500 strip behind it?
And I notice you said 20%ish singles. WOuld it be possible to pack all the singles in the very front and then all the twos behind it, then the threes, and get away with the entire thing being strip? Or would it look very fake? I was thinking maybe could densepack all the singles from the strip in the very front

Thanks,
JayMan

This is weird you're talking like its a big area, its a tiny thin strip!
You would'nt even be able to get 2500 into that area. There would barely be enough 1's in a 1000grafts strip to have 1 complete line across the forehead so it would'nt look right, but then again your talking about an area that is so small you could have it done without anyone (except maybe someone like a girlfreind) even noticing.

 

[Guest]

Ah I see what you are saying now, gotcha.

Yes I now see that FUe would be necessary. Do you still think that it is only 15 cm/2 now or does it appear bigger? It looks like a lowering of the hairline and temples about 1/3rd of an inch on average, when I look at the picture. Some areas as much as maybe half an inch, and others as little as one quarter of an inch or one fifth of an inch.

If you still think it is only 12 cm/2, then 1000 will get me 83.3 g/cm2 density, which should be fine, right? If it turns out to be say 14 cm/2, I'll need 1120, which isn't that much of a difference in cost.

This is actually better than I thought. I thought it would take 2500 or so into that area but I am glad to hear that you think it won't, SAF. This would mean that I'd only about 13% of my donor supply on the hair transplant.

But here's what I don't get, saf. Maybe you can explain it to me:

If we're talking about putting 1000 hairs in there, maybe 80% of original density in that area which was, let's say, 1250 hairs, since they'd all be singles like you said. If I started with 100,000 hairs on my head, are you saying that the area I'd be filling in is only 1.25% of my total scalp area where hair once grew(1250/100,000)? It just seems like a bigger % than that. In some areas it's more than half an inch I'll be filling in in between the red and green lines. My whole scalp isn't 960 square centimeters is it? Maybe I'm looking at it wrong though. Maybe a non balding 12 year old boy's scalp has denser hair in some areas of the head than on others?

 

[Nathaniel]

I'm confused now, so doing strip is not good for hairline?

 

[s.a.f]

Not if you only require a small amount. These days strip is mainly used for bigger cases, where its impractical to do FUE because with FUE you can only get about 1000 - 1200 grafts in a full days session and as I said its easier for the surgeon to select singles with FUE.

 

[Guest]

Ah I see what you are saying now, gotcha.

Yes I now see that FUe would be necessary. Do you still think that it is only 15 cm/2 now or does it appear bigger? It looks like a lowering of the hairline and temples about 1/3rd of an inch on average, when I look at the picture. Some areas as much as maybe half an inch, and others as little as one quarter of an inch or one fifth of an inch.

If you still think it is only 12 cm/2, then 1000 will get me 83.3 g/cm2 density, which should be fine, right? If it turns out to be say 14 cm/2, I'll need 1120, which isn't that much of a difference in cost.

This is actually better than I thought. I thought it would take 2500 or so into that area but I am glad to hear that you think it won't, SAF. This would mean that I'd only about 13% of my donor supply on the hair transplant.

But here's what I don't get, saf. Maybe you can explain it to me:

If we're talking about putting 1000 hairs in there, maybe 80% of original density in that area which was, let's say, 1250 hairs, since they'd all be singles like you said. If I started with 100,000 hairs on my head, are you saying that the area I'd be filling in is only 1.25% of my total scalp area where hair once grew(1250/100,000)? It just seems like a bigger % than that. In some areas it's more than half an inch I'll be filling in in between the red and green lines. My whole scalp isn't 960 square centimeters is it? Maybe I'm looking at it wrong though. Maybe a non balding 12 year old boy's scalp has denser hair in some areas of the head than on others?

Wait so what do you think about this stuff SAF?

Thanks

 

[s.a.f]

Wow you're confusing me now with these numbers, I dont know much about all that but all I can say is that from all my experience and what I've seen of other peoples examples an area the size of that hairline you posted takes about 1000 or so grafts to build. It wont be the same density as a natural hairline on a young kid who has'nt got m.p.b no hair transplant will give you that but cosmeticly it will look the same to others around you.
It would'nt be 100% singles but certainly a much higher proportion of singles than you'd be able to get from strip.
Have a look at Spex hairline on his site http://www.hair-help.co.uk he had his hairline slightly lowered with 900 FUE that was 3/4 yrs ago so maybe today a Dr would get another 100 or so in there.

 

[Guest]

Wow you're confusing me now with these numbers, I dont know much about all that but all I can say is that from all my experience and what I've seen of other peoples examples an area the size of that hairline you posted takes about 1000 or so grafts to build. It wont be the same density as a natural hairline on a young kid who has'nt got m.p.b no hair transplant will give you that but cosmeticly it will look the same to others around you.
It would'nt be 100% singles but certainly a much higher proportion of singles than you'd be able to get from strip.
Have a look at Spex hairline on his site http://www.hair-help.co.uk he had his hairline slightly lowered with 900 FUE that was 3/4 yrs ago so maybe today a Dr would get another 100 or so in there.

I guess I just don't get why I cannot have my transplanted hairline be the same natural density as the original? That's what I don't get . If my original density was 100 follicular units/cm 2, which is average for caucasians, then how come the Doctor couldn't just transplant the new hairline at 100 g/cm2 as well? Like I said, I thought that 80 g/cm2 would give pretty much the same visual appearance as 100 g/cm2, so I figured that transplanting the new hairline at 80 g/cm2 would give me the juvenile hairline back just as it was? But if it won't then I could go to 100. I guess I'm just asking you why you say the transplanted hairline cannot be as thick as nature's once was if you transplant at a high enough density? I realize the hairs won't have the exact same placement, but in terms of thickness, why not? I've seen some hairlines from some docs that look just as thick if not thicker than my juvenile hairline was.

Spex's hairline looks pretty damned good but still not as thick as a juvenile one. Don't get me wrong, it is DAMNED good for an adult, but I think if someone coud squeeze 1200 FUE into there instead of 900, it would have been as thick as a 12 year old's hairline. That's what I want, because I have such a small amount of loss in the hairline, so I want to pack it thick as hell and go into my 40s 50s and 60s with the same thing.

 

[DoctorHouse]

Jayman, first of all I think there is nothing wrong with you wanting a hair transplant if it will make you happier. I told you before my hair is very similar to yours and I am much much older than you. I went for a consultation and to fill in my hair just like you wanted and the doctor told me honestly that it would make very little difference. Actually, the hair transplant doctor who was younger than me and the sales person both had 2 transplants and still told me they wished they had my hair. I agree with s.a.f., you probably need at the most 1000 grafts and if Armani was doing it probably 3000's to 3500 because he will shave you and go higher up just in case. He makes you shave your hair and then he will start at your line and move up and transplant a larger band to account for possible recession later. I guess he overshoots a little and gives you a safety net so to speak just in case you recede. If I ever get one, I would strongly consider Rahal. But just for the area you marked, I think it will not take much. I have seen a transplant on Rassman were the guy had a small one and was able to still wear his longer hair over it so you could barely see work was done.

 

[Guest]

Thanks House.

Yes I am looking at Rahal for sure for both FUE or strip because of his low costs of both. his strip cost is comparable to any other top Doctor out there and his FUE seems to be the cheapest at $7 a graft I think.

I don't think i need to protect against the future because I'd still have 6000+ grafts available to transplant via strip or FUE or whatever if that ever happened, so yeah. Plus I doubt it ever would being on Avodart assuming my hair stays stable between now and 3 years from now.

Do you think that I could fill in that area I want with 1200 grafts and have it be juvenile thickness?

Thanks.

 

[DoctorHouse]

Yes, I think with 1200 grafts you can get what you want in thickness. You can e-mail a photo to Rahal now and they can give you a rough estimate of how many grafts you need. That way you know roughly where you stand. I wrote to him and got a response right away for me to send photos but I never did because I do not feel one is necessary now. Lets just hope after all this shedding, my hair thickens up now other wise I might be taking a trip to Canada in the near future. I am going to give myself at least 4 years on these treatments(2 more years from now) before I decide on any transplant unless I take a complete nosedive which seems very unlikely but then again anything is possible.

 

[Guest]

Thanks House. Yeah, 1200 would probably be what I'd go for if they could all fit.

Do you agree with my assessment that if I maintain through early 2011 on my regimen, that I shouldn't need to worry about future loss?

What do you think of Rahal's hairline design and skills? I really like Dr. Armani's but I can't imagine paying $14 a graft for FUE if Rahal can do just as good of a job at half the cost.

 

[DoctorHouse]

I think Rahal is very talented. The problem is by the time you want a transplant he may be in such high demand that his prices will be like Armani. Hopefully not but it can happen. Anyway send a photo to him and find out what he thinks. I would be interested in what he quotes you.

 

[Guest]

Well I'm sure by that time other good doctors will be available

 

[DoctorHouse]

I hope so.

 

[RaginDemon]

JayMan, I think you will look silly with hairline lowered to the green line.

You are in your mid 20's, you dont wanna look like you are 15, do you?