How would the top list of DHT inhibitors look like?

[CCS]

RU is not as strong as castration, but I bet topical RU combined with internal finasteride would be stronger than castration, so stopping baldness in all men. Maybe put the RU in some revivogen, and dilute it for easier spreading.

My brother is going to disolve RU in oleic acid and put that on his head, and take 1/4 proscar. Dutas is not saving his hair, and I told him this would.

 

[michael barry]

CCS,


ON hairloss-research.com, they have noted in the past that finas isn't all that effective for older guys. I imagine that is because hair can use the other male hormones by that time to continue the male pattern baldness process.

Finas and Dutas are probably much more effective for the younger guys that haven't been losing it for long yet.


I think a topica receptor blocker like RU would really really up the effectiveness of these things (Propecia, dutas) big time over the years. Thats why Ive been piddling with substances with anti-androgenic side effects (like low libido, loss of body hair, gyno) in men to see if I can find an effective natural receptor blocker.


I think Ive found one by the way (no, not pine oil......although the beta sis in pine oil could be helpful), but am going to wait another month or so before proclaiming it as usefull. Early results look really good though......................................................
Its ridiculous to think that there is no natural substance that will not have an affinity for an androgen receptor. Of course there will be, we just have to find it.

 

[eddy_simpson]

interesting stuff michael. i think your on the right track looking for an androgen receptor blocker, would be interested to know what you think you've found?

also what was the result of your pine oil experiment? i spotted in a post that you were testing it last year.

do you not feel that spironolactone or fluridil, with perhaps better delivery mechanisms, will do the job and save you looking for a needle in a haystick with natural method. the problem is that you may come across a natural substance that with alcohol or nanosomes could be excellent, but on its own incapable of penetrating and you will never know.

 

[tomas99]

CCS,


ON hairloss-research.com, they have noted in the past that finas isn't all that effective for older guys. I imagine that is because hair can use the other male hormones by that time to continue the male pattern baldness process.

Finas and Dutas are probably much more effective for the younger guys that haven't been losing it for long yet.


I think a topica receptor blocker like RU would really really up the effectiveness of these things (Propecia, dutas) big time over the years. Thats why Ive been piddling with substances with anti-androgenic side effects (like low libido, loss of body hair, gyno) in men to see if I can find an effective natural receptor blocker.


I think Ive found one by the way (no, not pine oil......although the beta sis in pine oil could be helpful), but am going to wait another month or so before proclaiming it as usefull. Early results look really good though......................................................
Its ridiculous to think that there is no natural substance that will not have an affinity for an androgen receptor. Of course there will be, we just have to find it.

I would guess that it is because older men have less T and more estrogen and more DHT as progesterone is getting lower and also there are changes in SHBG. Very nice part of ageing - you are less horny, it is harder to build muscles but you are more likely to lose hair and also to be fat in certain parts of your body :lol:

 

[michael barry]

Eddy,

Youre quite right. However, there are things about spironolactone and fluridil I dont like. Fluridil seems to cause scalp irritation pretty badly in guys between year one and two. Ive read about a bunch of guys that get off that stuff even though they think it works citing irritated red scalp.


spironolactone...........well, we all know the drawbacks. It can stink if your doing something physical and you sweat within the first three or so hours after putting it on. Needs to be put on twice. Doesn't spread all that well at all, so you have to use a bunch of it.

I made some homemade spironolactone with cetaphil lotion and a tad of peppermint shcnapps for smell. It smelled alright, but a few times I'd get in the shower and that awful spironolactone smell would hit me. Not good is it? Stuff does stink.




Pine oil is between 10 and 19 percent beta sitosterol, a chalky fat that doesnt seem to be much soluble in anything. It definitely reduced hair on the back of my hand about a year back at three months. Better than Crinagen easily, but not as good as revivogen. I got interested in beta sis because its the common ingredient between palmetto, nettles, pygeum, and I read about bourbon alcoholics and the very effiminizing side effects they had (low libido if any, gyno, loss of body and even some pubic hair, good head hair, leg edemal----big girly hips). It sounded much like internal spironolactone's and flutamide's side effects, so I gave it a whirl.


Green tea extreact has had a slight reductive effect on my beard hair. Better than I'd expect crinagen to do, but I cant really compare it with pine oil, because I tested it in a different place. Im testing a third substance known to kill mens libido when they drink it. I want to wait a good month or so and be sure Im getting an effect before I run my mouth and claim I found something. Till then...............my word is revivogen is the thing to add to finasteride. The substance Im looking had has pretty strong anti-androgenic effects in rats and is in a couple of shampoos for hairloss. That was enough to get me interested.

Im pretty much out of anti-androgens to test. I'd wager most things that really negatively effect a man's libido, probably have a good effect on hair if you can get it though the dermis and it has a long enough lifespan.

 

[hair_tomorrow]

OK - so how's this list coming along?

 

[eddy_simpson]

Hmm...I've just dropped revivogen because Im not keen on the alcohol it contains - dried my hair a lot. It had a mildly beneficial effect I think. Started crinagen a couple of days ago instead. So it didnt work for you michael? Why do you think this was, as the ingredients look as good, if not better than revivogen at loweriing scalp dht and tackling inflammation imo?

 

[michael barry]

eddie,

I put the crinagen on the other wrist back when I was testing the revivogen. I wanted the crinagen to work better, because its cheaper and not nearly as oily. But it really only had a small lessening of body hair growth. It may inhibit DHT pretty well though, but it certainly doens't block receptor sites as well.


Keep in mind Crinagen is primarily saw palmetto and Zinc first. The GLA isn't as well represented in crinagen, and the beta sis is just the beta sis that occurs in the saw palmetto, not put in in good amount on its own like with the revivogen. Then again perhaps the LACK of alcohol is why the crinagen may or may not penetrate as well. I had a little irritation with crinagena also on the wrist.

 

[blaze]

Dutas is not saving his hair, and I told him this would.

How old is your brother CCS?

And how long has he been treating his hairloss? Also how much Dutas does he take per day?

I am surprised dutas isnt helping him...

 

[eddy_simpson]

Hmm...I would expect the tea tree and ginkgo in crinagen to have benefits for the scalp, that wouldnt be observable when testing on the back of your hand. Regardless though its androgen receptor blockers that most of us need, not dht blockers.

I wonder if there is a way to customize crinagen to be equally as or more effective than revivogen in every aspect. You consider beta sis to be an effective receptor blocker right? Avocado oil is 4+% beta sisterol and is rich in fatty acids including 40% palmitic acid which Ive read is antiandrogenic. It is non-irritating and is very effectively absorbed. Emu oil may also increase the absorbability of crinagen.

I'm surprised you are not trying something like this, because with crinagen you know that you already have a complete product that is stable, can penetrate the skin, inhibits tgf-b and dht (to a degree), doesn't irritate or inflame the scalp (and should infact reduce this with tea tree), may improve circulation with ginkgo and is very cheap! surely adding something to crinagen and then testing this on the back of your hand is the way to go?

 

[michael barry]

you wrote, " Avocado oil is 4+% beta sisterol and is rich in fatty acids including 40% palmitic acid which Ive read is antiandrogenic. It is non-irritating and is very effectively absorbed. Emu oil may also increase the absorbability of crinagen. "


Avacodo oil was less that one percent beta sis from what I remember. Pine oil easily has more beta sis than anything else at 10-19 percent. Corn oil was second at ten percent, but has been linked with cancers in rodents in topical applications.

Saw palmetto oil was .4 percent beta sis. I think avacodo oil was .4 percent also. Beta sis isn't out there in great quantities in anything to be honest. Sugar cane has some in it (about one percent if I remember correctly).

The things you wrote about crinagen are things that Ive considered before myself...................the tgf beta inhiition the ginko should bring to the table, the pkc inhibition by the grapeseed proanthocyandins. Its not oily, its cheap. Believe me, I'd rather have seen big success on my wrist with it, but I didnt'. Ive emailed them a couple of times hopeing that they have changed their formula (more beta sis, not just extracted from saw palmetto), but they haven't changed their formula since 2001 according to that Bob Maslanka guy (or whatever his name is) that answers their emails.


I wish I felt more optomistic about that product, but after all these years they have not submitted even one before and after pic of a customer, never held a trial that took before and after pictures or anything like that. Thats troubling to me. Their info page is the same as its always been. Thats is also troubling to me. Its as if they have stopped trying.

 

[michael barry]

Here are the sources of beta sis and their percentages therein


Beta-Sitosterol levels of plant oils
Source Concentration % Typical Level
Tall Oil 10 - 20 18
Corn Oil 0.5 - 1.0 0.9
Corn Fibre Oil 10 - 15 12.5
Pumpkinseed oil 0.2 - 0.3 0.25
Saw Palmetto 0.1 - 0.3 0.2
Avocado 0.4 - 0.9 0.5
Olive Oil 0.2 - 0.3 0.2
Rice bran Oil 0.5 - 0.8 0.75

Sources of Beta Sitosterol


The first two numbers are the low and high findings, the third the average they found over time apparently.
Thats all from this page, http://www.olivado.com/studies2.htm

 

[michael barry]

by the way, tall oil is another name for pine oil, also known as cedarwood oil, etc.

 

[CCS]

ON hairloss-research.com, they have noted in the past that finas isn't all that effective for older guys. I imagine that is because hair can use the other male hormones by that time to continue the male pattern baldness process.

Finas and Dutas are probably much more effective for the younger guys that haven't been losing it for long yet.

I've been balding for 10 years. I'm 27, and Norwood 4a. Do you think my hair can now bald from testosterone a lone?

 

[eddy_simpson]

Michael for some reason only now does this question come to my head...why are u testing pine oil as an antiandrogen based on it having a high beta sis content, rather than simply dissolving pure beta sis caps in a solution and using ths?

 

[blaze]

Just in case you missed my post CCS...

How old is your brother CCS?

And how long has he been treating his hairloss? Also how much Dutas does he take per day?

I am surprised dutas isnt helping him...

Dutas plus RU should stop hairloss cold.

 

[michael barry]

Eddy wrote:

"Michael for some reason only now does this question come to my head...why are u testing pine oil as an antiandrogen based on it having a high beta sis content, rather than simply dissolving pure beta sis caps in a solution and using ths?"


Ive piddled with the beta sis caps a few times. That stuff doesnt want to mix very well with anything though. I suppose one could put it in a skin cream and try it. It bundles up in alchohol/water mixtures though. It might penetrate the skin on its own......................Ive thought about giving it a try. Im trying a couple of other things right now.


I'd like to try spironolactone topically and watch to see how much suppression I'd get to get a "baseline" result to judge stuff aginast too............

 

[blaze]

I had some beta sis caps MBarry. I used to mic them up with emu Oil and apply to my hairline. It got too messy though. But it seemed to mix well with the emu oil.