i think im a PFS victim
- Thread starter waldo
- Start date
Wuffer said:
i'm not a judge and i have no objective proof.
as u said, is a conjecture
however, the past questionable ethics is an undoubtable fact.
with this starting point i guess is more than reasonable to be suspicious.
i agree. i can't get an accurate view of the experiences of the general population. i can agree also with the biased forum view.
but just 4 exemple, did u find some medical forum with so much anedoctals complaints for penicilline?
i think that these "anedoctal reports" have some value, at least for give a warning to people that blindly trust in the big companies' fairness
it's just an opinion
Propecia,
To add a bit further to my previous post, I believe Propecia is unique in that there is an additional level of fear being brought into the picture. Using your example with Penicillin, the ‘nocebo’ effect does exist (like it does with every medication) but not nearly to the extent that it would for Propecia. Due to the fact that there is the belief it can cause a (supposedly permanent) unknown condition compounds the fear significantly, and I believe this fear plays an important role in the number of reports we see online.
Personally, I now believe PFS exists, but it is extremely rare and not something I personally worry about. However, I do notice I get caught up in some of the stories I read, and begin getting anxious about it. I have to talk myself down from the irrational thoughts to return to a level of complacency. Possibly this will ultimately lead to my un-doing; taking any medication is risking serious problems. But I’ve determined that for myself, the benefits outweigh the risk. This may seem insane to you guys, and that’s understandable. We all need to justify our own decisions in life.
I believe a significant number of individuals experiencing PFS-related symptoms are simply suffering from a psychosomatic episode. However, I am certain that another significant group of these people are suffering from very real physiological conditions. Some, I can believe were caused by Finasteride use. Likely for others, there may be an unrelated and undiagnosed medical condition causing problems.
Taking into account the tens of millions of people worldwide taking the drug, it’s perfectly reasonable to expect that a small percentage of men would experience unrelated medical conditions that happened to coincide with their temporal finasteride use. However, this doesn’t encompass the entire population of people suffering from problems.
Even though there isn’t sufficient evidence, I do believe there is a casual relationship between finasteride and these persistent problems. Having gotten to know a number of guys with these problems has changed my mind about this, but I still believe there are a number of other factors at play.
To add a bit further to my previous post, I believe Propecia is unique in that there is an additional level of fear being brought into the picture. Using your example with Penicillin, the ‘nocebo’ effect does exist (like it does with every medication) but not nearly to the extent that it would for Propecia. Due to the fact that there is the belief it can cause a (supposedly permanent) unknown condition compounds the fear significantly, and I believe this fear plays an important role in the number of reports we see online.
Personally, I now believe PFS exists, but it is extremely rare and not something I personally worry about. However, I do notice I get caught up in some of the stories I read, and begin getting anxious about it. I have to talk myself down from the irrational thoughts to return to a level of complacency. Possibly this will ultimately lead to my un-doing; taking any medication is risking serious problems. But I’ve determined that for myself, the benefits outweigh the risk. This may seem insane to you guys, and that’s understandable. We all need to justify our own decisions in life.
I believe a significant number of individuals experiencing PFS-related symptoms are simply suffering from a psychosomatic episode. However, I am certain that another significant group of these people are suffering from very real physiological conditions. Some, I can believe were caused by Finasteride use. Likely for others, there may be an unrelated and undiagnosed medical condition causing problems.
Taking into account the tens of millions of people worldwide taking the drug, it’s perfectly reasonable to expect that a small percentage of men would experience unrelated medical conditions that happened to coincide with their temporal finasteride use. However, this doesn’t encompass the entire population of people suffering from problems.
Even though there isn’t sufficient evidence, I do believe there is a casual relationship between finasteride and these persistent problems. Having gotten to know a number of guys with these problems has changed my mind about this, but I still believe there are a number of other factors at play.
Wuffer said:
wuffer,
it's something more than belief
the effects of this "possible condition" are clear.
the sides paper has been updated.
even if the phisiologycal implications are obscure, u know what u can eventually get in the worst case scenario.
Why finasteride nocebo effect has bigger extent than other drugs nocebo?
that's ur choice.
nobody can question that
u r well aware of all possible things about fina
Enden said:
I Agree !
I think side effects are inevitable with proscar..
think if one takes creatine every day for 6months I guess you will develop the sidies like cramps etc but they go away once drug is discontinued.
With proscar it is as if the sidies are reluctant to go away and also if the sidies occur from time to time on such a delicate organ, the question is what will happens in the long run?
It is like saying taking proscarcetamol gives you heart murmurs but dont worry you will be fine.. what happens in the long run after months of getting these sidies? will the heart be affected?
I am really not sure what to think anymore ..All I will do is advise any one who is not happy down below to tread very carefully because if you get stung theres a hefty price to pay ...
To the contrary, I don’t believe any of this is clear. You have thousands of guys, all of which have very different symptoms, respond differently to treatments, have different medical backgrounds and countless other variables at play. A scientifically proven, conclusive and verifiable relationship to finasteride has not yet been made.
That being said, my ‘emotional’ brain believes PFS exists, regardless of the existence of this proof. However, I don’t personally base my decisions on my emotions or gut feeling unless I have nothing else to go by. But in this case, I believe my decision is justified. Just to be clear though, I’m on your side Propecia, and am not arguing just for the sake of arguing, or calling you a liar. However, I believe I see a lot of misinformation out there, and a lot of confused guys. I’m trying my best to provide some objective advice and clear up misconceptions so that these guys can make more informed decisions.
Its bad advice to say: “Fin is 100% safe, all those PFS guys are mental, and you will be fineâ€. It’s equally bad advice to say: “Fin is poison, all it will do is ruin your life, it ruined mine, there’s no reason to ever consider going on itâ€. I try my best to reach middle ground.
The side effects update to the PI was not scientifically founded, nor does it give any indication that this symptom can or does happen to the general population. It was added because the number of reports to Merck or the FDA raised the possibility of a statistically significant incidence of these problems, and I believe that was the sole reason it was added. However, I am admittedly naive when it comes to this particular subject, so if I’m off base in what I said about this subject, please call me out on it.
That being said, my ‘emotional’ brain believes PFS exists, regardless of the existence of this proof. However, I don’t personally base my decisions on my emotions or gut feeling unless I have nothing else to go by. But in this case, I believe my decision is justified. Just to be clear though, I’m on your side Propecia, and am not arguing just for the sake of arguing, or calling you a liar. However, I believe I see a lot of misinformation out there, and a lot of confused guys. I’m trying my best to provide some objective advice and clear up misconceptions so that these guys can make more informed decisions.
Its bad advice to say: “Fin is 100% safe, all those PFS guys are mental, and you will be fineâ€. It’s equally bad advice to say: “Fin is poison, all it will do is ruin your life, it ruined mine, there’s no reason to ever consider going on itâ€. I try my best to reach middle ground.
The side effects update to the PI was not scientifically founded, nor does it give any indication that this symptom can or does happen to the general population. It was added because the number of reports to Merck or the FDA raised the possibility of a statistically significant incidence of these problems, and I believe that was the sole reason it was added. However, I am admittedly naive when it comes to this particular subject, so if I’m off base in what I said about this subject, please call me out on it.
Wuffer said:
That's just one element of it.
Others:
- Pending law suits in Canada and several other countries
- The FACT that MERCK didn't even know themselves how exactly finasteride inhibited DHT when it was originally DHT approved
- The FACT that we now know much more about 5ARII inhibitors generally and the accepted presence of sufferers from these drugs
- Report suicides? The FACT that top-line doctors are onto this.
- The fact that they're not stupdi themselves? They'll have their own team researching things. There is NO doubt that they have now found out much more than they'd like to dilvulge. No doubt, unless they've lost touch with the latest medical developments.
it's a combination of everything man. They know full well things are going to get hairy for them over the coming years and they're planning for it. Don't be niave to think otherwise.
-
Wuffer said:
i can say clear enough to force merck to update the sides papers.
there is something recurrent in those so different symptoms
i'm hanging on forum just for look if some treatment or anything new comes up
only for see what happens and talk with my misfortune companions
i got sides without read anything about on internet, and i was very angry on myself because i believed blindly in what my
dermatologist said to me: Propecia is a very safe drug.
So, i think it's a good action advice the people in what "eventually" they have to deal with. i'm just motivated by these things.
ur opinion is really clear wuffer
But i want better understand ur motivations
if i remeber well u said that people report only drug bad effects.
u got no sides and u got full benefits from finasteride but u hang around daily in this "side effecs area" of the forum
just for fight misinformation? not a big trigger imao
Propecia, that's really all it is. I'm fighting misinformation. The average person would lose interest after a couple months, but not me! I need something to do while i'm at work 
Another obvious reason I hang around here is because I take the stuff and I want to be as informed as possible. I seem to tolerate it well, and have no real reason to quit. However, things might change quickly and I might have a good reason.
Again guys, i'm really on your side here. While I don't necessarily agree with some of your thoughts, recent developments are interesting and things might start changing very fast. However, there are still a ton of questions to be answered.
Looking back at some threads 2 or 3 years ago, people believed simply the fact that reducing DHT iself was the sole cause of all these problems, and there was no other way about it. Now, we see all these new studies that point it in another direction. In time, maybe we will find something entirely different is going on. Nobody knows until it's figured out.
Another obvious reason I hang around here is because I take the stuff and I want to be as informed as possible. I seem to tolerate it well, and have no real reason to quit. However, things might change quickly and I might have a good reason.
Again guys, i'm really on your side here. While I don't necessarily agree with some of your thoughts, recent developments are interesting and things might start changing very fast. However, there are still a ton of questions to be answered.
Looking back at some threads 2 or 3 years ago, people believed simply the fact that reducing DHT iself was the sole cause of all these problems, and there was no other way about it. Now, we see all these new studies that point it in another direction. In time, maybe we will find something entirely different is going on. Nobody knows until it's figured out.
Wuffer said:
i can say that i'm also on ur side in some way
because i believe in the long term reversibility of sides (at least in my case)
in the last semester i got improvements so i'm well disposed.
It's good, probably u will be one of the majority that never get any sides
After further analysis let me explain this clearly.
I am a very strong male with no history of any real illness.
I have taken several drugs over the years and they all come with side effects at recommended dosage. And in all the cases MILD side effects occurred, especially for medication that is taken on an empty belly for immediate absorption into the bloodstream.
This is the scenario for most majority of the general public, they will have MILD side effects once in a while if on a drug daily(perhaps sidies every 2-3days)
PARACETAMOL: works on my headaches, but if taken daily then
sidies : diarrhoea
FLUCLOXACILLIN: antibiotic, used to treat infections but was not that effective, but when taken daily
sidies : upset stomach
CREATINE: Works but then if used daily
sidies: muscle Cramps ( can be stretched out)
PROTIEN WHEY: effective but then if used daily
sidies: continuous Farts (90% of people will confirm this)
FINASTERIDE: several months usage at 1mg and probably experienced the Mildest side effect it causes and that was such a great impediment to any Mans daily function.
sidies: Lack of erection+weak erection/watery seamen, slight tiredness
ALCOHOL: If taken daily then
sidies: vary but all mild
CONCLUSION:
You see finasteride at 1mg will certainly produce real side effects.
But Who knows if 0.25mg EOD will work with no sidies?
If I took other drugs with the method above it probably would be effective in the long run?
So I think it is bad for any Doctors to actually recommend & sell this product for hairloss knowing that most people will get these critical side effects@ 1mg.
I can just imagine the financial cost ambiguousity involved in Finasteride/proscar too!
Have these side effects even been researched Meticulously ?
I am off the finasteride now and steadily improving..I get random erections a countless amount of times now but when on finasteride I could count the amount and and it was weak erections .. However the duration of my erections has not returned to normal!!!
I may experiment with 0.25mg EOD IF normality resumes.
And in terms of if the finasteride did work? I believe in my case it must have been working inorder to produces the sidies. But I just noticed better hair texture( had been told it was too soon to see any gains)
I am a very strong male with no history of any real illness.
I have taken several drugs over the years and they all come with side effects at recommended dosage. And in all the cases MILD side effects occurred, especially for medication that is taken on an empty belly for immediate absorption into the bloodstream.
This is the scenario for most majority of the general public, they will have MILD side effects once in a while if on a drug daily(perhaps sidies every 2-3days)
PARACETAMOL: works on my headaches, but if taken daily then
sidies : diarrhoea
FLUCLOXACILLIN: antibiotic, used to treat infections but was not that effective, but when taken daily
sidies : upset stomach
CREATINE: Works but then if used daily
sidies: muscle Cramps ( can be stretched out)
PROTIEN WHEY: effective but then if used daily
sidies: continuous Farts (90% of people will confirm this)
FINASTERIDE: several months usage at 1mg and probably experienced the Mildest side effect it causes and that was such a great impediment to any Mans daily function.
sidies: Lack of erection+weak erection/watery seamen, slight tiredness
ALCOHOL: If taken daily then
sidies: vary but all mild
CONCLUSION:
You see finasteride at 1mg will certainly produce real side effects.
But Who knows if 0.25mg EOD will work with no sidies?
If I took other drugs with the method above it probably would be effective in the long run?
So I think it is bad for any Doctors to actually recommend & sell this product for hairloss knowing that most people will get these critical side effects@ 1mg.
I can just imagine the financial cost ambiguousity involved in Finasteride/proscar too!
Have these side effects even been researched Meticulously ?
I am off the finasteride now and steadily improving..I get random erections a countless amount of times now but when on finasteride I could count the amount and and it was weak erections .. However the duration of my erections has not returned to normal!!!
I may experiment with 0.25mg EOD IF normality resumes.
And in terms of if the finasteride did work? I believe in my case it must have been working inorder to produces the sidies. But I just noticed better hair texture( had been told it was too soon to see any gains)
garrynw4 said:
i think there r good possibilities for a total recover.
healty diet and supplements could help u
imao is not very safe going back to fina if u got sides, even if u reduce dosage and posology
anedoctals reports talks about sides worsening if u discontinue and back again on fina
in ur case sides were bearable, but risk is up to you
I won't
Progress is extremely slow.
I discovered something that might be a clue to the problem.
You see, when I stopped taking finasteride , I began to take a protein powder as a one off due to weight loss. days after taking it the result was I had almost normal erections again which I posted about.
So basically the protein powder ran out and its back to normal again which is difficulty getting an erection , however it is about 25% better than when I was on finasteride though ejections are nearing normality.
out of curiosity I read the label of the protein power and it stated it had an Amino acid profile.
It turns out that Amino acids actually enhances Nitric Oxide and etc which possibly was fixing my dysfunction as it was in the powder?
I want to try the zinc 50mg an see if it helps fix the problem but I don’t know which one to get?
I am really dissappointed !
garrynw4 said:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ZINC-Picolinate-5 ... 3f0449279b
Not sure where you're from but im sure there are US sellers, too.
I have a question for the PFS sufferers...if DHT plays such an important role in sexual function, how come these Propecia side effects aren't more widespread? I'd assume Propecia reduces DHT levels by ~65% in all men who take it, so shouldn't these side effects be more evenly distributed? I'm obviously a medical layman so I don't know the ins and outs of the endocrine system. Do you guys have any theories?
