I'm dropping dairy and here's why.

[Bryan]

Bryan, I thought about that also, Yes, I've seen the baby tigers being nursed by the female dog on Youtube. I've never seen an adult/fully developed animal take milk from another.

You mean other than when it was given to them? That may be, but I really don't think it says much about how "natural" it may or may not be for them to drink milk on other occasions.

 

[whimull]

Bryan,

What is your opinion on the [basic] published studies and anecdotal evidence from online forums posts that link milk consumption with acne?

 

[Bryan]

What is your opinion on the [basic] published studies and anecdotal evidence from online forums posts that link milk consumption with acne?

I don't know of any published studies on milk and acne (haven't really been looking for any), but I suppose there might be some validity to the idea. Posters on acne sites have claimed a connection between acne and a variety of foods, not just milk. Some say that milk has no effect at all on their acne.

 

[whimull]

There are various studies done, however none are terribly scientific....


J Am Acad Dermatol. 2008 May;58(5):794-5.
Milk consumption and acne in teenaged boys.Adebamowo CA, Spiegelman D, Berkey CS, Danby FW, Rockett HH, Colditz GA, Willett WC, Holmes MD.
Department of Nutrition, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts, USA.

OBJECTIVE: We sought to examine the association between dietary dairy intake and teenaged acne among boys. METHODS: This was a prospective cohort study. We studied 4273 boys, members of a prospective cohort study of youths and of lifestyle factors, who reported dietary intake on up to 3 food frequency questionnaires from 1996 to 1998 and teenaged acne in 1999. We computed multivariate prevalence ratios and 95% confidence intervals for acne. RESULTS: After adjusting for age at baseline, height, and energy intake, the multivariate prevalence ratios (95% confidence interval; P value for test of trend) for acne comparing highest (>2 servings/d) with lowest (<1/wk) intake categories in 1996 were 1.16 (1.01, 1.34; 0.77) for total milk, 1.10 (0.94, 1.28; 0.83) for whole/2% milk, 1.17 (0.99, 1.39; 0.08) for low-fat (1%) milk, and 1.19 (1.01, 1.40; 0.02) for skim milk. LIMITATIONS: Not all members of the cohort responded to the questionnaire. Acne assessment was by self-report and boys whose symptoms might have been part of an underlying disorder were not excluded. We did not adjust for steroid use and other lifestyle factors that may affect occurrence of acne. CONCLUSION: We found a positive association between intake of skim milk and acne. This finding suggests that skim milk contains hormonal constituents, or factors that influence endogenous hormones, in sufficient quantities to have biological effects in consumers.

PMID: 18194824 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Bryan]

Oh yes, now I remember reading about that on acne sites: acne is (supposedly) made worse with low-fat or non-fat milk products. I agree that that's not the most convincing study ever done, but nevertheless I like the general finding that people seem to get into trouble by tampering with the normal fat content of milk. I find it to be the height of hubris for humans to think that they can improve on Nature's basic design for milk by removing all that nasty fat!

 

[Old Baldy]

Oh yes, now I remember reading about that on acne sites: acne is (supposedly) made worse with low-fat or non-fat milk products. I agree that that's not the most convincing study ever done, but nevertheless I like the general finding that people seem to get into trouble by tampering with the normal fat content of milk. I find it to be the height of hubris for humans to think that they can improve on Nature's basic design for milk by removing all that nasty fat!

+1.

I've done a ton of reading on fats in the diet over the years and have come to the conclusion that good, wholesome fats are essential to a healthy diet.

For conveniency(sp?) purposes my three favorites are butterfat, olive oil and flax oil. (I get the flax oil mainly from grinding up flax seeds.) There are many more good fats people could consume (e.g., krill oil seems to be a good, recently popular oil).

So far, based on check-ups at the doctor's office, they certainly haven't hurt. (Like Bryan, I do not fall for that cholesterol hype. It is WAY overblown IMHO.)

Where in the f*** the hype turned against fats is still a mystery to me. I can understand the trans-fats or cooked/fried fats but wholesome fats are GOOD for us!! In fact, they are ESSENTIAL IMHO.

Just the simple act of downing a shot glass or mouthful of olive oil everyday will "lube" the joints and boost the immune system. Such a simple thing to do.

I can't stand the taste of milk but my wife likes it and I force myself to take a shot glass or two almost everyday. Same for a little butter now and then. I just put about a teaspoon in my mouth and eat the stuff. So darn simple!!

And like Powersam told me once, eat some cheese also. So I do now and then. Never liked cheese that much either.

 

[HughJass]

hmmm


the study Bryan quoted is interesting. And confusing.

So what are we to make of the studies which show the opposite? eg Japanese people who have adopted western diets which include high fat dairy and have increasing rates of heart disease, european countries that have higher dairy intake and have higher cholesterol levels to show for it, the International Atherosclerosis Project findings?

 

[Old Baldy]

hmmm


the study Bryan quoted is interesting. And confusing.

So what are we to make of the studies which show the opposite? eg Japanese people who have adopted western diets which include high fat dairy and have increasing rates of heart disease, european countries that have higher dairy intake and have higher cholesterol levels to show for it, the International Atherosclerosis Project findings?

Maybe cooked/fried fats and trans-fats? Also maybe alot of red meat fats. Finally, maybe too much of all those fats?

And remember, the red meat fats are cooked.

Butterfat, olive oil and flax oil don't fall into those categories.

 

[HughJass]

but the International Atherosclerosis Project findings said that damage from plaque was directly proportional to serum cholesterol levels (as well as fat and cholesterol intake) and if butterfat raises cholesterol then surely this means butterfat is a culprit in all of this?

 

[Old Baldy]

but the International Atherosclerosis Project findings said that damage from plaque was directly proportional to serum cholesterol levels (as well as fat and cholesterol intake) and if butterfat raises cholesterol then surely this means butterfat is a culprit in all of this?

It is frustrating isn't it. Bryan's studies (i.e., and citations) are old and what I learned a long time ago. Those studies, IMHO, have stood the test of time.

More and more, low and no fat diets are beginning to indicate they are not healthy. There is alot of good stuff in butterfat. Just use it in moderation IMHO.

You know, kind of like the red wine and shot of hard liquor being good for you but in large amounts they are not healthy. Maybe look at butterfat in this manner. That's how I look at it.

 

[Bryan]

So what are we to make of the studies which show the opposite? eg Japanese people who have adopted western diets which include high fat dairy and have increasing rates of heart disease, european countries that have higher dairy intake and have higher cholesterol levels to show for it, the International Atherosclerosis Project findings?

I don't think it's fair to blame milk alone for the declining heart health of Japanese who adopt Western diets. It's the OVERALL inferior quality of the Western diet which can be held accountable for that.

Do you want an obvious counterexample to the Japanese? The FRENCH! The French are famous (notorious?) for their fatty diets. They seem to use cream for all their food preparation, but certainly have a lower incidence of heart disease than Americans.

 

[Bryan]

but the International Atherosclerosis Project findings said that damage from plaque was directly proportional to serum cholesterol levels (as well as fat and cholesterol intake) and if butterfat raises cholesterol then surely this means butterfat is a culprit in all of this?

I think that's a simplistic way to look at it. Foods with fats are not all the same, and some are much better to consume than others. If a given food has a much higher level of nutrients which can fight heart disease (various vitamins, minerals, amino acids, etc.) but also has some fat in it, I sure as hell wouldn't AVOID it, just because of that fat!

That was the general thrust of that article I quoted from Roger Williams: the foods that are good for fighting heart disease are the ones that are rich in OVERALL NUTRITION, even if they have a certain amount of fat in them.

 

[Hammy070]

Natural composition of milk? Is it natural to drink cows milk or any milk post-infancy?

The French eat good quality food and a lot less of it. With good healthcare that's a long life. An American starter is probably a French main course, calorically. Theoretically lower calories = longer life. Lower heart disease is mainly in the rural perhaps more organic South of France, with Paris and city areas not too different from other Western areas.

Red wine is suposed to relax the arteries and nerve endings during a meal, and resvsratrol in red wine may also play a role.

 

[Hammy070]

Oh I drink milk everyday. I'm a dairy freak. I sometimes even add a bit of creamto milk to enrich it. I have a mug of hot milk n cream every night before I sleep. I also use butter a lot. Organic double-churned butter. Use about a block a week.

Butter, sugar and salt. Add it to anything and you have a masterpiece. :innocent:

 

[Bryan]

Natural composition of milk? Is it natural to drink cows milk or any milk post-infancy?

How does one define "natural" in this case?

The French eat good quality food and a lot less of it. With good healthcare that's a long life. An American starter is probably a French main course, calorically.

That's true. They do eat smaller portions. And that "good quality" of their food has a lot to do with it, in my opinion.

Lower heart disease is mainly in the rural perhaps more organic South of France, with Paris and city areas not too different from other Western areas.

Do you have a reference or citation for that?

Red wine is suposed to relax the arteries and nerve endings during a meal, and resvsratrol in red wine may also play a role.

Indeed. I do consider resveratrol to be part of that "overall nutrition" to which I referred earlier.

 

[Hammy070]

Well Southern France is more Mediterranean and heart disease rates there are similar to other countries in the region. North is closer to Britain, therefore more deadly :-/

The med diet yields the second highest life expectancy after the Japanese. So you have olive oils, red wines, smaller portions and decent health care all contributing. The French don't eat a high fat diet, they eat high fat foods in far lesser amounts.

I'm also a Japanese food freak. I ate 5 plates of sushi the other day. Also learned to make gyudon, a beef-Ginger-mirin with onion dish served with rice.

Wow I'm hungry now :-|

PS: Natural always has it's varying definitions which was my point precisely. Intensively milked cows, hormones, half fat, nonfat and even consuming it after infancy can all be argued to be unnatural. Disease is natural too and so is death.

I personally don't like using the word. My favourite words are: healthy, nutritious, tasty, texture, rich, cheesy, crispy, subtle and delicate. Natural is subjective.

 

[Bryan]

PS: Natural always has it's varying definitions which was my point precisely. Intensively milked cows, hormones, half fat, nonfat and even consuming it after infancy can all be argued to be unnatural.

It may be "unnatural" in one particular sense, but I don't think it's unnatural in the sense of good nutrition.

 

[Hammy070]

Doesn't semi-skimmed milk have more calcium?
Butter is churned not natural in form.

Hah all discussions about nutrition end the same way - "yeah you're right, a varied balanced diet is the way to go"

 

[ghg]

What is your opinion on the [basic] published studies and anecdotal evidence from online forums posts that link milk consumption with acne?

I don't know of any published studies on milk and acne (haven't really been looking for any), but I suppose there might be some validity to the idea. Posters on acne sites have claimed a connection between acne and a variety of foods, not just milk. Some say that milk has no effect at all on their acne.

What about the relationship with seborrheic dermatitis and milk products? Do you have any thoughts about that? The reason I'm asking this is because I have seb. derm and have found f*** all so far to relieve it. Well, ok, low-carb diet has helped some.

 

[ghg]

Oh I drink milk everyday. I'm a dairy freak. I sometimes even add a bit of creamto milk to enrich it. I have a mug of hot milk n cream every night before I sleep. I also use butter a lot. Organic double-churned butter. Use about a block a week.

Butter, sugar and salt. Add it to anything and you have a masterpiece. :innocent:

Why add cream to milk when you can drink the cream on its own? I do that sometimes when I happen to have cream... I also eat butter on a daily basis and use it in everything I cook. I don't use sugar, though.