increased body fat?
- Thread starter mbehr22
- Start date
T
Timi
Guest
mbehr22 said:
Timi
stax
Experienced Member
- Reaction score
- 4
Possible fact, depending on the person and genetics.
DHT is 5 or more times as potent an androgen as testosterone, so DHT can help with fatloss. Testosterone is more anabolic ( muscle building ), but not as potent an androgen as DHT.
DHT is also a pretty strong estrogen antagonist, and bodybuilders have used Proviron and Masteron as anti-estrogens while on steroid cycles with great success (orally active and injectable DHT). People have also used Masteron and lost bodyfat.
These drugs are also known to keep you hard and dry, if your bodyfat is around 15% or less you will notice it. If you are chubby or fat you most likely wont notice the effects. This is because DHT basically blocks the negative effects of estrogen at the receptors without actually really lowering your actual estrogen levels.
These drugs also lower SHBG, thus leaving for more FREE testosterone to float around and actually be used by the body to build muscle,ect.
Estrogen raises SHBG.
Exess estrogen can also lower testosterone, and exess estrogen can also bind with thyroid hormone, lowering it.
So in some people inhibiting DHT is a bad idea.
Basically your left with more estrogen than before, and hardly any DHT to regulate its effects.
Plus your SHBG will probabbly raise, leaving you with less free testosterone, and over time, your total testosterone might drop due to the exess estrogen.
Your not the only person who has noticed the "soft" look.
A lot of people taking these drugs werent always lean and hard like us, so they may not notice the negative effects. And everybody reacts differently to things aswell, so its not fair to question anybody just because YOU dont get these effects.
If you want to look harder, i would use an aromatase inhibitor like Aromasin. It should help, and also protect against possible estrogen related sides.
DHT is 5 or more times as potent an androgen as testosterone, so DHT can help with fatloss. Testosterone is more anabolic ( muscle building ), but not as potent an androgen as DHT.
DHT is also a pretty strong estrogen antagonist, and bodybuilders have used Proviron and Masteron as anti-estrogens while on steroid cycles with great success (orally active and injectable DHT). People have also used Masteron and lost bodyfat.
These drugs are also known to keep you hard and dry, if your bodyfat is around 15% or less you will notice it. If you are chubby or fat you most likely wont notice the effects. This is because DHT basically blocks the negative effects of estrogen at the receptors without actually really lowering your actual estrogen levels.
These drugs also lower SHBG, thus leaving for more FREE testosterone to float around and actually be used by the body to build muscle,ect.
Estrogen raises SHBG.
Exess estrogen can also lower testosterone, and exess estrogen can also bind with thyroid hormone, lowering it.
So in some people inhibiting DHT is a bad idea.
Basically your left with more estrogen than before, and hardly any DHT to regulate its effects.
Plus your SHBG will probabbly raise, leaving you with less free testosterone, and over time, your total testosterone might drop due to the exess estrogen.
Your not the only person who has noticed the "soft" look.
A lot of people taking these drugs werent always lean and hard like us, so they may not notice the negative effects. And everybody reacts differently to things aswell, so its not fair to question anybody just because YOU dont get these effects.
If you want to look harder, i would use an aromatase inhibitor like Aromasin. It should help, and also protect against possible estrogen related sides.
Finasteride doesn't appear to have an effect on SHBG levels though - I can only find one study on PubMed, and nothing in the drug monographs.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum
stax
Experienced Member
- Reaction score
- 4
LOL, the study was done on men aged 58-79!
I am 23 years old, and the majority of people on here are young aswell. We need studies done on young men like me.
Guys that age already have high SHBG because their estrogen gets higher as they age, and their bioavailable testosterone drops aswell. When you bioavailable testosterone drops, SHBG increases.
Ive read too many stories on bodybuilding forums, and anti-aging forums, where their free testosterone dropped after using Propecia and Dutasteride, and they ended up hypogondal. Some had no hormonal problems untill after they quit, then their hormones crashed,ect. They even reported that their doctors have seen the same aswell. Also lots of people ended up hypogondal years later after using Finesteride, and these people arent crazy they have the blood work to back it up. Im not a beleiver in that big of coincedances, this is happeneing to too many people. Something is at play here for a percentage of people and it needs much deeper investigation.
I am 23 years old, and the majority of people on here are young aswell. We need studies done on young men like me.
Guys that age already have high SHBG because their estrogen gets higher as they age, and their bioavailable testosterone drops aswell. When you bioavailable testosterone drops, SHBG increases.
Ive read too many stories on bodybuilding forums, and anti-aging forums, where their free testosterone dropped after using Propecia and Dutasteride, and they ended up hypogondal. Some had no hormonal problems untill after they quit, then their hormones crashed,ect. They even reported that their doctors have seen the same aswell. Also lots of people ended up hypogondal years later after using Finesteride, and these people arent crazy they have the blood work to back it up. Im not a beleiver in that big of coincedances, this is happeneing to too many people. Something is at play here for a percentage of people and it needs much deeper investigation.
stax said:
Yeah it was the only study I could find! There are a couple of other studies on finasteride, either on women or older men, that found no effect on SHBG levels -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum
Were some of those bodybuilders using steroids as well as 5ARIs? We know that can induce hypogonadism. There seem to be no studies at all on the postulated relationship between hypogonadism and prior use of 5ARIs, just anecdotes on the Net. I know that Bryan has said that he's agnostic on about the alleged "permanent" sides of finasteride and dutasteride.
stax
Experienced Member
- Reaction score
- 4
Yeah, as i was saying the older men thing doesnt really matter, as their hormones are already in the crapper for the most part.
No, these guys didnt use steroids, which concerns me. And i read these stories on 3 different non hairloss forums. I read most of the stories on an anti-aging section of a forum.
I really do want to use finasteride or dutasteride, but i dont really trust what the long term effects may bring,ect, and ive had no luck in the past beating the sides, mostly fatigue and puffy face, even using a powerfull AI. I still have the sides month after quitting.
I think these drugs just mess up my endocrine system too much, put a big strain on it, and this sends my cortisol through the roof. This can cause water retention and a puffy face, and would explain why using powerfull AI's, to the point where my joints were hurting, didnt get rid of it. Exess cortisol also lowers DHEA-S, which i tested twice in the past 2-3 months WAY below normal, which is bad.
I beleive dutasteride contributed to my adrenal fatigue, because i had no stress tolerance while on it, and ive been in serious stress in the past before i started finasteride/dutasteride, and this never happened before.
I just got my DHEA-S, DHT, and Estradiol tested again, so will see what my results are soon. Doing a bioavailable testosterone test soon aswell. Im not taking anything right now, and took my last dutasteride pill in May. I just finished trying a product that is supposed to raise DHEA levels, but i dont really feel or look any better, so i dont think it worked. Will find out though soon, should be interesting.
These drugs are nothing to mess with.
No, these guys didnt use steroids, which concerns me. And i read these stories on 3 different non hairloss forums. I read most of the stories on an anti-aging section of a forum.
I really do want to use finasteride or dutasteride, but i dont really trust what the long term effects may bring,ect, and ive had no luck in the past beating the sides, mostly fatigue and puffy face, even using a powerfull AI. I still have the sides month after quitting.
I think these drugs just mess up my endocrine system too much, put a big strain on it, and this sends my cortisol through the roof. This can cause water retention and a puffy face, and would explain why using powerfull AI's, to the point where my joints were hurting, didnt get rid of it. Exess cortisol also lowers DHEA-S, which i tested twice in the past 2-3 months WAY below normal, which is bad.
I beleive dutasteride contributed to my adrenal fatigue, because i had no stress tolerance while on it, and ive been in serious stress in the past before i started finasteride/dutasteride, and this never happened before.
I just got my DHEA-S, DHT, and Estradiol tested again, so will see what my results are soon. Doing a bioavailable testosterone test soon aswell. Im not taking anything right now, and took my last dutasteride pill in May. I just finished trying a product that is supposed to raise DHEA levels, but i dont really feel or look any better, so i dont think it worked. Will find out though soon, should be interesting.
These drugs are nothing to mess with.
The Proscar product monograph says that "Finasteride had no effect compared to placebo on circulating levels of cortisol". In the MTOPS study and the phase II Glaxo hair loss study, fatigue was similarly prevalent in treatment and placebo groups.
There's nothing in the product monographs about water retention as a 5ARI side. I thought that was a minoxidil problem?
I guess dutasteride could have an effect on mood through its inhibition of 5AR1 and consequent blocking of neurosteroids like allopregnanolone. I have no idea whether this would be positive or negative, though - apparently both exposure to and withdrawal from allopregnanolone have been shown to precipitate adverse mood states in animal studies.
There's nothing in the product monographs about water retention as a 5ARI side. I thought that was a minoxidil problem?
I guess dutasteride could have an effect on mood through its inhibition of 5AR1 and consequent blocking of neurosteroids like allopregnanolone. I have no idea whether this would be positive or negative, though - apparently both exposure to and withdrawal from allopregnanolone have been shown to precipitate adverse mood states in animal studies.
stax
Experienced Member
- Reaction score
- 4
Well this will be my last post here in this topic, as ive already spent an incredible amount of time searching and researching,ect, this topic and MANY MANY users experiences of both these drugs on all types of different forums. There are Doctors that post on the anti-aging forums, along with people with degree's on the subject of hormones, that back up these points. I really dont have much else to say.
Ive done my research, you can do yours and try to prove me wrong if you wish. When you take Finesteride and Dutasteride you are partially castrating yourself period.
Before i start read one article before you do anything, AND READ IT ALL!
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/arnold/dht.htm
One paragraph i want to post from the above article before i begin:
"This transformation serves a very important biological function in these tissues. You see, DHT is a much stronger androgen than testosterone – it binds about 3-5 times more strongly to the androgen receptor. If you took away 5-AR from these tissues and blocked the formation of DHT, then you would see some dramatic changes in physiology."
I dont care what "product monographs",ect say. These sides can and have happened to me and many others. Look around the boards, not just the hairloss boards. Is it that hard to beleive that these drug companies dont list them? There is corruption everywhere in this world, and its not like these side effects are life threatening, so why would they bother mentioning them? There are far too many side effects DHT reduction can cause too list. If they listed them all hardly anybody would want to try them. In my opinion some major investigation needs to be done, and new studies done with younger guys, not allowing anybody to drop out of the trials, which a lot of people did with Propecia. Thats funny that they do studies,ect, on old men, because Propecia and Dutasteride make me feel like an old man! The hormonal profile finasteride and dutasteride create are absolutely horrible, especially for young men who are in their prime hormonal peak.
Did the "product monographs" say anything about "death" as a side effect of Vioxx? Dont think so. Dont buy into the attitude of " well the product index doesnt say this is a side effect,ect" as there is much they arent telling you. The patrick Arnold article should be posted on Mercks website for everybody to read before they decide to use Propecia, as they need to know the potential of what inhibiting the 5ar Enzyme can do.
I obviously know how these drugs effect me, because when i quit they go away within 2-3 weeks, usually, and ive never had these side effects before in my life, and they all correlate with DHT reduction. Ive always felt great and was as healthy as a horse, before starting these drugs. Im still as healthy as a horse, but my hormones are messed up, obviously because of the finasteride and dutasteride. Ive been on and off finasteride and dutasteride at least 5 times each trying to beat the sides.
Ive personally spoken to a grown man who also gets fatigue from Propecia and Dutasteride. When i hear and read other people reacted the same, i say " yeah me too WTF"! Actually i wasnt so surprised once i did my research.
I only started searching on the net AFTER i started getting sides on finasteride, then when i read others had the same sides, i started doing major research on what i am doing to my body with Finesteride and Dutasteride.
I remember a couple years ago seeing my doctor and telling him im always feeling exausted for no reason, but didnt tell him i was on Propecia. So he ordered me the regular non hormonal bloodwork, and everything was fine. Im guessing that my testosterone was either low, estrogen was high, or both. Or simply my fatigue was because of the reduced DHT, as DHT plays a role in CNS, energy, and is a lot more potent an androgen than testosterone. He wouldnt test my hormones because i was 21 years old and said that my hormones should be normal. I also gained a bit of stringy chest fat deep in pecks while on propecia, before i even knew about anti-estrogens.
So i quit Propecia, and about 2-3 weeks later i felt amazing, energy back, and i mean really back, my face dropped the water retention,ect. And these side effects didnt ever happen when i wasnt taking propecia, neither before or after i quit.
Woman hold more water than men, and their cheeks are usually more round and puffy. Thats because they have high estrogen and low testosterone and dht.
DHT keeps you DRY and HARD ( research it ) when your bodyfat levels are low, and my WHOLE life ive always been lean and muscular naturally, chesled face,ect. So reducing DHT ( a potent anti-estrogen ), testosterone and estrogen rises. So this can cause bloating and water retention, look it up. Everybody's body reacts differently. The increase in estrogen can also lower free testosterone, making the situation worse. So this is how the water retention can happen.
Also some people simply hold more water when DHT is reduced, i think im one of those people. When you use an Aromatase Inhibitor, you will be pissing alot, so your losing water because of the lowered estrogen. its not hard to figure out.
Yes minoxidil can cause water retention aswell, but from a different cause than lack of DHT or increases estrogen.
And about the Cortisol, whenever your body is under stress, your Cortisol can go up. I can gaurantee for some people inhibiting almost all DHT from the body can put a serious stress on your body and hormonal system, especially since DHT protects against the negative effects of estrogen, similar to how DHEA protects against the negative effects of Cortisol. This isnt a fact but i'll bet money on it. Testosterone lowers Cortisol, im guessing DHT does too as its 5 times as potent an an androgen than testosterone.
Finesteride is almost as bad as Dutasteride, inhibiting the 5ar type 2 ezyme can still effect mood,ect. Hell reducing DHT by 75% can definetly effect your mood lol. I was a cranky stressed out a**hole on Propecia.
AIMF ( aromatase inhibitor for men ) helped with my mood though when i tried finasteride again late last year, it also helped a bit with my fatigue aswell. But dutasteride worked really good for my hair and a lot faster than finasteride, so i really wanted to try and beat the sides using dutasteride.
I think after i get my adrenal fatigue sorted out, i might give regular Propecia a shot again with AIMF. Never will i touch dutasteride though again. Oh and 2.5 - 5mg of Proscar made me feel just as bad as dutasteride did practically.
Ive done my research, you can do yours and try to prove me wrong if you wish. When you take Finesteride and Dutasteride you are partially castrating yourself period.
Before i start read one article before you do anything, AND READ IT ALL!
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/arnold/dht.htm
One paragraph i want to post from the above article before i begin:
"This transformation serves a very important biological function in these tissues. You see, DHT is a much stronger androgen than testosterone – it binds about 3-5 times more strongly to the androgen receptor. If you took away 5-AR from these tissues and blocked the formation of DHT, then you would see some dramatic changes in physiology."
I dont care what "product monographs",ect say. These sides can and have happened to me and many others. Look around the boards, not just the hairloss boards. Is it that hard to beleive that these drug companies dont list them? There is corruption everywhere in this world, and its not like these side effects are life threatening, so why would they bother mentioning them? There are far too many side effects DHT reduction can cause too list. If they listed them all hardly anybody would want to try them. In my opinion some major investigation needs to be done, and new studies done with younger guys, not allowing anybody to drop out of the trials, which a lot of people did with Propecia. Thats funny that they do studies,ect, on old men, because Propecia and Dutasteride make me feel like an old man! The hormonal profile finasteride and dutasteride create are absolutely horrible, especially for young men who are in their prime hormonal peak.
Did the "product monographs" say anything about "death" as a side effect of Vioxx? Dont think so. Dont buy into the attitude of " well the product index doesnt say this is a side effect,ect" as there is much they arent telling you. The patrick Arnold article should be posted on Mercks website for everybody to read before they decide to use Propecia, as they need to know the potential of what inhibiting the 5ar Enzyme can do.
I obviously know how these drugs effect me, because when i quit they go away within 2-3 weeks, usually, and ive never had these side effects before in my life, and they all correlate with DHT reduction. Ive always felt great and was as healthy as a horse, before starting these drugs. Im still as healthy as a horse, but my hormones are messed up, obviously because of the finasteride and dutasteride. Ive been on and off finasteride and dutasteride at least 5 times each trying to beat the sides.
Ive personally spoken to a grown man who also gets fatigue from Propecia and Dutasteride. When i hear and read other people reacted the same, i say " yeah me too WTF"! Actually i wasnt so surprised once i did my research.
I only started searching on the net AFTER i started getting sides on finasteride, then when i read others had the same sides, i started doing major research on what i am doing to my body with Finesteride and Dutasteride.
I remember a couple years ago seeing my doctor and telling him im always feeling exausted for no reason, but didnt tell him i was on Propecia. So he ordered me the regular non hormonal bloodwork, and everything was fine. Im guessing that my testosterone was either low, estrogen was high, or both. Or simply my fatigue was because of the reduced DHT, as DHT plays a role in CNS, energy, and is a lot more potent an androgen than testosterone. He wouldnt test my hormones because i was 21 years old and said that my hormones should be normal. I also gained a bit of stringy chest fat deep in pecks while on propecia, before i even knew about anti-estrogens.
So i quit Propecia, and about 2-3 weeks later i felt amazing, energy back, and i mean really back, my face dropped the water retention,ect. And these side effects didnt ever happen when i wasnt taking propecia, neither before or after i quit.
Woman hold more water than men, and their cheeks are usually more round and puffy. Thats because they have high estrogen and low testosterone and dht.
DHT keeps you DRY and HARD ( research it ) when your bodyfat levels are low, and my WHOLE life ive always been lean and muscular naturally, chesled face,ect. So reducing DHT ( a potent anti-estrogen ), testosterone and estrogen rises. So this can cause bloating and water retention, look it up. Everybody's body reacts differently. The increase in estrogen can also lower free testosterone, making the situation worse. So this is how the water retention can happen.
Also some people simply hold more water when DHT is reduced, i think im one of those people. When you use an Aromatase Inhibitor, you will be pissing alot, so your losing water because of the lowered estrogen. its not hard to figure out.
Yes minoxidil can cause water retention aswell, but from a different cause than lack of DHT or increases estrogen.
And about the Cortisol, whenever your body is under stress, your Cortisol can go up. I can gaurantee for some people inhibiting almost all DHT from the body can put a serious stress on your body and hormonal system, especially since DHT protects against the negative effects of estrogen, similar to how DHEA protects against the negative effects of Cortisol. This isnt a fact but i'll bet money on it. Testosterone lowers Cortisol, im guessing DHT does too as its 5 times as potent an an androgen than testosterone.
Finesteride is almost as bad as Dutasteride, inhibiting the 5ar type 2 ezyme can still effect mood,ect. Hell reducing DHT by 75% can definetly effect your mood lol. I was a cranky stressed out a**hole on Propecia.
AIMF ( aromatase inhibitor for men ) helped with my mood though when i tried finasteride again late last year, it also helped a bit with my fatigue aswell. But dutasteride worked really good for my hair and a lot faster than finasteride, so i really wanted to try and beat the sides using dutasteride.
I think after i get my adrenal fatigue sorted out, i might give regular Propecia a shot again with AIMF. Never will i touch dutasteride though again. Oh and 2.5 - 5mg of Proscar made me feel just as bad as dutasteride did practically.
Everyone has to make their own decision about treating their hair loss. It's a very personal thing and I would never try to persuade anyone to take Propecia or Avodart if they were uncomfortable with the idea - after all, I ain't selling anything!
I agree with the need for informed choice, but ultimately people should be consulting a medical professional, not random posters on the Net. Internet forums are full of anecdote and opinion, often biased, never quality controlled. Some posters on HairLossTalk.com a clearly very knowledgeable and authoritative, but a lot of material on here is dreck.
I've used finasteride successfully for a couple of years now, and experienced no sides (knock on wood). Ideally, we would like a hairloss treatment with 100% effectiveness and no sides. However, in the real world, that doesn't exist and will probably never exist.
Clearly finasteride causes side effects in some men, but I believe that the problems are often overstated. People make all kinds of unsubstantiated claims about Propecia side effects on the Net, but just because it's posted online it doesn't make it true. As I've said in previous posts, the problem with assessing the prevalence of side effects is the question of attribution. I might take drug A and experience phenomenon B, but did A cause B? Maybe, maybe not. Things are affected by so many 'extraneous variables', it's very hard to prove direct causation.
That's why we compare the incidence of a phenomenon in a treatment group to the incidence in a placebo group - we can only really talk in terms of relativities. And I don't think that - ethically or practically - we would be able to conduct a finasteride trial with absolutely zero drop-out!
I don't think that the comparison with Vioxx is instructive. finasteride is an old drug, it was invented in 1988 and has been in clinical use since 1992 - plenty of time for Merck and third parties to study the compound and its effects. Of course, absolute certainty is always impossible, but I believe that finasteride is relatively safe. People who are in two minds about the drug need to consult a knowledgeable medical professional, and make their decision in the light of that advice.
I agree with the need for informed choice, but ultimately people should be consulting a medical professional, not random posters on the Net. Internet forums are full of anecdote and opinion, often biased, never quality controlled. Some posters on HairLossTalk.com a clearly very knowledgeable and authoritative, but a lot of material on here is dreck.
I've used finasteride successfully for a couple of years now, and experienced no sides (knock on wood). Ideally, we would like a hairloss treatment with 100% effectiveness and no sides. However, in the real world, that doesn't exist and will probably never exist.
Clearly finasteride causes side effects in some men, but I believe that the problems are often overstated. People make all kinds of unsubstantiated claims about Propecia side effects on the Net, but just because it's posted online it doesn't make it true. As I've said in previous posts, the problem with assessing the prevalence of side effects is the question of attribution. I might take drug A and experience phenomenon B, but did A cause B? Maybe, maybe not. Things are affected by so many 'extraneous variables', it's very hard to prove direct causation.
That's why we compare the incidence of a phenomenon in a treatment group to the incidence in a placebo group - we can only really talk in terms of relativities. And I don't think that - ethically or practically - we would be able to conduct a finasteride trial with absolutely zero drop-out!
I don't think that the comparison with Vioxx is instructive. finasteride is an old drug, it was invented in 1988 and has been in clinical use since 1992 - plenty of time for Merck and third parties to study the compound and its effects. Of course, absolute certainty is always impossible, but I believe that finasteride is relatively safe. People who are in two minds about the drug need to consult a knowledgeable medical professional, and make their decision in the light of that advice.
T
Timi
Guest
What should i do take Aromasin -Arimidex???
(Bodyfat)
side effekt from this??
Timi
(Bodyfat)
side effekt from this??
Timi
stax
Experienced Member
- Reaction score
- 4
Pondle, definelty agree that Finesteride imo cant be compared to the drug Vioxx, but you missed my point. It was about the FDA allowing such a drug, and about Merck not stating a bunch of side effects that DHT reduction can cause, especially in younger guys, im guessing it effects the people like me who have been lean and ripped all their life. Fat and overweight people produce more estrogen than lean people because the aromatase enzyme is found in fat tissue, aswell as muscle and skin. But if one were to recude their bodyfat they would see a drop in estrogen levels.
Bottom line you cant trust them, and they are not totally honest, you have to do your own research and decide.
I agree that Finesteride doesnt cause any life threatening issues, other than the fact that if you get prostate cancer on it, it can be the more aggresive form.
But im taking about the reduced quality of life that it can cause through DHT reduction, semi castration i call it. For the people that dont get sides i commend you, though i dont understand how somebody with healthy optimal hormone levels, such as a lean 21 or 23 year old,ect, wouldnt get any side effects from that level of DHT reduction, 85% type 2 reduction from Propecia i think. Im willing to bet at least 50% of them get atleast one side effect from it, such as fatigue, less strength or energy, moodyness, more stress prone, bloat, less sex drive or watery sperm, less powerfull ejaculation, some chest fat, less stamina, longer recovery time from physical work,ect. I mean think about it, put an healthy lean 18 year old on propecia and see what happens. Thats all im saying.
And im more inclined to beleive real people on the internet, then what Merck says, especially since most of all the sides they have are all related to DHT reduction. And because i myself have noticed a lot of them. Also because people on anti-aging forums, and well educated Dr's talk about how their patients had the same sides.
Yes hair is great, if it wasnt i wouldnt waste my time on the net searching for ways to beat the side effects,ect, but at the end of the day their are still options like topical RU out there. I may even find a way and supplement plan to beat the sides, but i know i will never really feel like myself when inhibiting DHT. A part of your personally is gone when you do that.
Bottom line you cant trust them, and they are not totally honest, you have to do your own research and decide.
I agree that Finesteride doesnt cause any life threatening issues, other than the fact that if you get prostate cancer on it, it can be the more aggresive form.
But im taking about the reduced quality of life that it can cause through DHT reduction, semi castration i call it. For the people that dont get sides i commend you, though i dont understand how somebody with healthy optimal hormone levels, such as a lean 21 or 23 year old,ect, wouldnt get any side effects from that level of DHT reduction, 85% type 2 reduction from Propecia i think. Im willing to bet at least 50% of them get atleast one side effect from it, such as fatigue, less strength or energy, moodyness, more stress prone, bloat, less sex drive or watery sperm, less powerfull ejaculation, some chest fat, less stamina, longer recovery time from physical work,ect. I mean think about it, put an healthy lean 18 year old on propecia and see what happens. Thats all im saying.
And im more inclined to beleive real people on the internet, then what Merck says, especially since most of all the sides they have are all related to DHT reduction. And because i myself have noticed a lot of them. Also because people on anti-aging forums, and well educated Dr's talk about how their patients had the same sides.
Yes hair is great, if it wasnt i wouldnt waste my time on the net searching for ways to beat the side effects,ect, but at the end of the day their are still options like topical RU out there. I may even find a way and supplement plan to beat the sides, but i know i will never really feel like myself when inhibiting DHT. A part of your personally is gone when you do that.
Stax,
"Semi-castration" is a little too harsh IMO. Finasteride and dutasteride are not classed as anti-androgens, because they increase T levels by 10-20% and lead to androgen receptor upregulation as well.
Studies on older hypogonadal men have shown that treatment with T versus treatment with T combined with finasteride has the same positive effects on physical performance, strength, and body composition.
Of course 5ARIs have risks, but they also have benefits. They prevent/treat BPH and reduce prostate cancer risk - right now Avodart is actually in phase III trials for prevention of prostate cancer. I know that the finasteride group were more likely to have a high grade cancer compared to placebo, but the hypothesised explanation for this is ascertainment bias - finasteride reduced prostate volume leading to better detection due to increased sampling density.
It's true that plenty of people on the Net claim sides, but like I said, trusting the views of so-called "real people" off the Net does not eliminate issues of bias, self-selection and misattribution. Controlling for these factors is the essence of a good research method.
Quick example - if you look at the Glaxo phase II hair loss study, a total of 34 per cent of men taking finasteride 5mg reported "any adverse event". However, compare that to placebo. A whopping 42 per cent reported an "adverse event" attributable to a sugar pill. There are obviously issues of attribution (and probably psychological effects) here.
Do you see what I'm saying?
"Semi-castration" is a little too harsh IMO. Finasteride and dutasteride are not classed as anti-androgens, because they increase T levels by 10-20% and lead to androgen receptor upregulation as well.
Studies on older hypogonadal men have shown that treatment with T versus treatment with T combined with finasteride has the same positive effects on physical performance, strength, and body composition.
Of course 5ARIs have risks, but they also have benefits. They prevent/treat BPH and reduce prostate cancer risk - right now Avodart is actually in phase III trials for prevention of prostate cancer. I know that the finasteride group were more likely to have a high grade cancer compared to placebo, but the hypothesised explanation for this is ascertainment bias - finasteride reduced prostate volume leading to better detection due to increased sampling density.
It's true that plenty of people on the Net claim sides, but like I said, trusting the views of so-called "real people" off the Net does not eliminate issues of bias, self-selection and misattribution. Controlling for these factors is the essence of a good research method.
Quick example - if you look at the Glaxo phase II hair loss study, a total of 34 per cent of men taking finasteride 5mg reported "any adverse event". However, compare that to placebo. A whopping 42 per cent reported an "adverse event" attributable to a sugar pill. There are obviously issues of attribution (and probably psychological effects) here.
Do you see what I'm saying?
stax
Experienced Member
- Reaction score
- 4
Hey Pondle, i see what your saying, but do you see what im saying?
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/arnold/dht.htm
This is all i really have to say. These are the facts about DHT. Im not making this stuff up im stating facts. You dont seem to be acknowledging them.
Now its funny that you say treatment with T versus treatment with T and finasteride has the same positive effects on physical performance, strength, and body composition. Please post this study.
Secondly, what the hell is it with you and older men for god sakes!
And HYPOGONDAL given TESTOSTERONE??? We are starting to slip off topic. But i'll say a few words anyways.
DHT isnt ANABOLIC like T is, but that just means that T can help you build more muscle tissue than DHT itself. When you build more muscle tissue your bodyfat will drop because muscle tissue burns more calories. DHT is very mildly anabolic, and plays a role in muscle hardness, when you are already at a low bodyfat percentage, so unless this the case for these men, especially for OLDER men who were HYPOGONDAL, i HIGHLY doubt it. These men probabbly had more estrogen in them than a woman their same age. SO my point is they are a lot less likely to notice the hardening effects that DHT has on your muscles. Plus the fact that these men were given Testosterone for god sakes, that probabbly helped with the side effects of DHT reduction. If i was given T with Propecia or mabye even Dutasteride, i'll bet that i would have less sides too. And i actually said i had some reduction in fatigue,ect, when i used AIMF with Propecia. AIMF lowers estradiol and increases T. But i had no luck with this on Dutasteride.
There are guys on the steroid forums that have used Propecia and Dutasteride, and on cycle they notice some reduction in aggresiveness, but for the most part side effect free. But when off cycle they have more side effects. Its obvious that the extra T they are getting from the steroids are helping with the side effects.
But we are slipping away from the main thing we are talking about, which is the effects of DHT reduction alone, WITHOUT giving somebody Testosterone via steroids or T cream, WITHOUT giving somebody an anti-estrogen,ect. These things would obviuosly help deal with the side effects while on Propecia. Dutasteride is a different story altogether.
Old men CANT be compared to young guys in their 20's. Also finasteride incresed total T yes, but not free T that really matters. And IMO the increase in estrogen is enough in a lot of people, especially younger guys, to offset the effects of the increase in T, and even LOWER total and free T eventually. But for some people T actually Lowers estrogen, but this isnt the case in many people when DHT i being inhibited.
Yes 5ar inhibitors can prevent possible prostate problems from happening, but they can also cause you to have the most aggresive type of prostate cancer IF you still get it. Thats a risk.
And yes i agree about the placebo effect, but all the side effects that these guys are having are all known FACTS about what can happen when you inhibit DHT.
Ive never had a placebo effect in my life. I didnt even know about the side effects that inhibiting DHT could cause, untill i started experiencing things that i have never experienced before as soon as i started taking Propecia. As i said i was a healthy as a horse fit, ripped, 21 year old with an incredible sex drive.
As i said before i saw my Doctor and nothing was wrong with me from a non hormonal stand point.
As i said before i quit and 2-3 weeks later all the sides were gone.
THEN i started doing a TON of research on the topic, DHT,ect, and everything i found out correlated with the sides i was having. I also read AFTER that it will take 2-3 weeks for DHT levels to come back to normal after your last dose of Propecia, as said by Bryan.
So Pondle, how is it that even though i knew NOTHING about these facts at the time i was using and quit Propecia, that EVERY side effects i had, and the time it took for all the sides to go away, EXACTLY correlated with the side effects DHT inhibiting can cause, and the time it took DHT levels to go back to normal fter quitting Propecia?
Now thats one big coinceance aint it?
Now there are crazy people on the net yes, but there are a lot of normal guys like myself, that i can tell arent crazy but having conversations with them,ect, and reading their posts, so i tend to beleive them.
And by crazies i mean these guys that say Propecia made them gay ect, when we all know that guy people are born this way, and can infact be genetic aswell. Propecia and Dutasteride never took away my sex drive at all, but it did greatly reduce my ejaculation power, oddly Propecia did this more than Dutasteride, and my sperm was watery and the loads were smaller. I know, i know, too much info lol.
And semi castration is not harsh at all, since Finesteride IS an anti-androgen, and an ANTI male homone, Dr.Proctor said it himself. You are reducing the most potent androgen in your body by 85-95% when you use Propecia or Dutasteride. DHT is more of a potent and stronger androgen than T, DHT binds to the androgen receptor 5 times as much. This to me is semi castration, especially when your dick doesnt work as good as a result.
Testosterone takes a lot of the credit for DHT, as we can clearly see when things start going south when Finesteride and Dutasterid is taken. Why is it that we dont lose hair when on Finesteride, although it increases T, and causes androgen receptor upregulation? Just as you said? Exactly because DHT is a more potent and stronger androgen.
A quote from Bryan:
" I read in a medical journal article that even under normal conditions, most DHT molecules end up binding to androgen receptors anyway, so that argument by your dermatologist doesn't make much sense to me. In other words, having more androgen receptors shouldn't make that much of a difference. The sharp reduction in the availability of DHT molecules is a more significant factor than additional numbers of androgen receptors.
Here is another post from the same thread i quoted Bryan in, by a finasteride and dutasteride user:
" everybody seems to be different. I dont believe DHT is the cause for some people. I do have male pattern baldness.. i'm thinning diffusely. Testosterone is what is responsable for pubic hair growth, but since i started propecia and the entire time i've been on dutasteride i lost pubic hair as well. I feel tired, my libido is way down when according to how finasteride SHOULD work, my libido should be sky high now.. an increase in testosterone is not supposed to make me feel as tired as i do everyday, and is not supposed to DECREASE my ejeculate volume by 75% !! and it HAS elevated my estradiol because i've lost all traces of any muscle i had, my biceps are incredibly soft! like friggin marshmallows my tummy is soft! my chest has fatty deposits. All these sides are symptoms of LOW testosterone! i also believe an excess of estrogen can cause hairloss which does make me believe that the hair that i've lost from my nape of the neck (the safe zone! the donor area) was brought on by the medication"
I can find more for you, from older guys on fitness and anti-aging forums, and also things they told me that their Doctor has seen in their patents that took finasteride and dutasteride, mostly fatigue, loss of lidido, bloat,ect.
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/arnold/dht.htm
This is all i really have to say. These are the facts about DHT. Im not making this stuff up im stating facts. You dont seem to be acknowledging them.
Now its funny that you say treatment with T versus treatment with T and finasteride has the same positive effects on physical performance, strength, and body composition. Please post this study.
Secondly, what the hell is it with you and older men for god sakes!
And HYPOGONDAL given TESTOSTERONE??? We are starting to slip off topic. But i'll say a few words anyways.DHT isnt ANABOLIC like T is, but that just means that T can help you build more muscle tissue than DHT itself. When you build more muscle tissue your bodyfat will drop because muscle tissue burns more calories. DHT is very mildly anabolic, and plays a role in muscle hardness, when you are already at a low bodyfat percentage, so unless this the case for these men, especially for OLDER men who were HYPOGONDAL, i HIGHLY doubt it. These men probabbly had more estrogen in them than a woman their same age. SO my point is they are a lot less likely to notice the hardening effects that DHT has on your muscles. Plus the fact that these men were given Testosterone for god sakes, that probabbly helped with the side effects of DHT reduction. If i was given T with Propecia or mabye even Dutasteride, i'll bet that i would have less sides too. And i actually said i had some reduction in fatigue,ect, when i used AIMF with Propecia. AIMF lowers estradiol and increases T. But i had no luck with this on Dutasteride.
There are guys on the steroid forums that have used Propecia and Dutasteride, and on cycle they notice some reduction in aggresiveness, but for the most part side effect free. But when off cycle they have more side effects. Its obvious that the extra T they are getting from the steroids are helping with the side effects.
But we are slipping away from the main thing we are talking about, which is the effects of DHT reduction alone, WITHOUT giving somebody Testosterone via steroids or T cream, WITHOUT giving somebody an anti-estrogen,ect. These things would obviuosly help deal with the side effects while on Propecia. Dutasteride is a different story altogether.
Old men CANT be compared to young guys in their 20's. Also finasteride incresed total T yes, but not free T that really matters. And IMO the increase in estrogen is enough in a lot of people, especially younger guys, to offset the effects of the increase in T, and even LOWER total and free T eventually. But for some people T actually Lowers estrogen, but this isnt the case in many people when DHT i being inhibited.
Yes 5ar inhibitors can prevent possible prostate problems from happening, but they can also cause you to have the most aggresive type of prostate cancer IF you still get it. Thats a risk.
And yes i agree about the placebo effect, but all the side effects that these guys are having are all known FACTS about what can happen when you inhibit DHT.
Ive never had a placebo effect in my life. I didnt even know about the side effects that inhibiting DHT could cause, untill i started experiencing things that i have never experienced before as soon as i started taking Propecia. As i said i was a healthy as a horse fit, ripped, 21 year old with an incredible sex drive.
As i said before i saw my Doctor and nothing was wrong with me from a non hormonal stand point.
As i said before i quit and 2-3 weeks later all the sides were gone.
THEN i started doing a TON of research on the topic, DHT,ect, and everything i found out correlated with the sides i was having. I also read AFTER that it will take 2-3 weeks for DHT levels to come back to normal after your last dose of Propecia, as said by Bryan.
So Pondle, how is it that even though i knew NOTHING about these facts at the time i was using and quit Propecia, that EVERY side effects i had, and the time it took for all the sides to go away, EXACTLY correlated with the side effects DHT inhibiting can cause, and the time it took DHT levels to go back to normal fter quitting Propecia?
Now thats one big coinceance aint it?
Now there are crazy people on the net yes, but there are a lot of normal guys like myself, that i can tell arent crazy but having conversations with them,ect, and reading their posts, so i tend to beleive them.
And by crazies i mean these guys that say Propecia made them gay ect, when we all know that guy people are born this way, and can infact be genetic aswell. Propecia and Dutasteride never took away my sex drive at all, but it did greatly reduce my ejaculation power, oddly Propecia did this more than Dutasteride, and my sperm was watery and the loads were smaller. I know, i know, too much info lol.
And semi castration is not harsh at all, since Finesteride IS an anti-androgen, and an ANTI male homone, Dr.Proctor said it himself. You are reducing the most potent androgen in your body by 85-95% when you use Propecia or Dutasteride. DHT is more of a potent and stronger androgen than T, DHT binds to the androgen receptor 5 times as much. This to me is semi castration, especially when your dick doesnt work as good as a result.
Testosterone takes a lot of the credit for DHT, as we can clearly see when things start going south when Finesteride and Dutasterid is taken. Why is it that we dont lose hair when on Finesteride, although it increases T, and causes androgen receptor upregulation?
Just as you said? Exactly because DHT is a more potent and stronger androgen.A quote from Bryan:
" I read in a medical journal article that even under normal conditions, most DHT molecules end up binding to androgen receptors anyway, so that argument by your dermatologist doesn't make much sense to me. In other words, having more androgen receptors shouldn't make that much of a difference. The sharp reduction in the availability of DHT molecules is a more significant factor than additional numbers of androgen receptors.
Here is another post from the same thread i quoted Bryan in, by a finasteride and dutasteride user:
" everybody seems to be different. I dont believe DHT is the cause for some people. I do have male pattern baldness.. i'm thinning diffusely. Testosterone is what is responsable for pubic hair growth, but since i started propecia and the entire time i've been on dutasteride i lost pubic hair as well. I feel tired, my libido is way down when according to how finasteride SHOULD work, my libido should be sky high now.. an increase in testosterone is not supposed to make me feel as tired as i do everyday, and is not supposed to DECREASE my ejeculate volume by 75% !! and it HAS elevated my estradiol because i've lost all traces of any muscle i had, my biceps are incredibly soft! like friggin marshmallows my tummy is soft! my chest has fatty deposits. All these sides are symptoms of LOW testosterone! i also believe an excess of estrogen can cause hairloss which does make me believe that the hair that i've lost from my nape of the neck (the safe zone! the donor area) was brought on by the medication"
I can find more for you, from older guys on fitness and anti-aging forums, and also things they told me that their Doctor has seen in their patents that took finasteride and dutasteride, mostly fatigue, loss of lidido, bloat,ect.
stax
Experienced Member
- Reaction score
- 4
Now i want to make it clear that in the past, ive used Propecia and Avodart, and when i quit them, within 2-3 weeks, mabye a little longer on Avodart, all my side effects went away and i returned to normal.
I always ended up taking a little break from dutasteride after a month because i couldnt deal with the fatigue, and i never took dutasteride daily for more than a month straight. So the drug build up was a lot less the way i was dosing.
In May i took my last dutasteride pill, but at the same time i started taking these stimulants to help with my fatigue,ect. I wanted to do everything i could do to stay on dutasteride and fix the sides. I got real bad anxiety and jitters from the stims, it was the first time i ever took stimulants, other than the odd cup of coffee i drank while on night shift a few years back to keep me up.
After i started the stims i work up in the monrings with absolutely no energy at all, and had to take more stims to keep me going. I suspect i crashed hard from them.
So i saw my Doctor and he orderd non hormonal blood work, and my immune system was a bit low, thats it. But i had water retention despite being on an anti-e, no sex drive, mild depression, frequent colds, constant cravings, insomnia,ect.
I still had these sides 2 months later, and kept seeing my Doctor, and he said i was crazy. I then got mad and told him to do his job, and that im not crazy i dont feel like myself i want some hormonal testing. I told hmi about the Avodart, the stims,ect.
So he tested my DHEA-S levels in August, and they were WAY below normal, 2 months in a row. So i know my body and i knew something was wrong with me. Now my Doctor listens when i tell him something.
I didnt think it was the Dutasteride because i had quit 3 months ago, and my dosing wasnt consistant enough to cause a big drug build up.
So i did some searching on what can cause low DHEA-S levels, and low and behold, chronic stress and stimulants can stress the adrenals, causing adrenal fatigue, which can cause low DHEA-S.
Then i found thid article stating the side effects on adrenal fatigue, and low DHEA-S,ect. And they correlated with my side effects, even the water retention was one of them.
http://bodybuilding.com/fun/behar2.htm
Could the dutasteride have contributed? Who knows, i think it played a role because i couldnt tolerate stress anymore, but the stimulants were the main factor because i bounced back in the past. I think i had low free T on dutasteride, and was in a weakened state.
I always ended up taking a little break from dutasteride after a month because i couldnt deal with the fatigue, and i never took dutasteride daily for more than a month straight. So the drug build up was a lot less the way i was dosing.
In May i took my last dutasteride pill, but at the same time i started taking these stimulants to help with my fatigue,ect. I wanted to do everything i could do to stay on dutasteride and fix the sides. I got real bad anxiety and jitters from the stims, it was the first time i ever took stimulants, other than the odd cup of coffee i drank while on night shift a few years back to keep me up.
After i started the stims i work up in the monrings with absolutely no energy at all, and had to take more stims to keep me going. I suspect i crashed hard from them.
So i saw my Doctor and he orderd non hormonal blood work, and my immune system was a bit low, thats it. But i had water retention despite being on an anti-e, no sex drive, mild depression, frequent colds, constant cravings, insomnia,ect.
I still had these sides 2 months later, and kept seeing my Doctor, and he said i was crazy. I then got mad and told him to do his job, and that im not crazy i dont feel like myself i want some hormonal testing. I told hmi about the Avodart, the stims,ect.
So he tested my DHEA-S levels in August, and they were WAY below normal, 2 months in a row. So i know my body and i knew something was wrong with me. Now my Doctor listens when i tell him something.
I didnt think it was the Dutasteride because i had quit 3 months ago, and my dosing wasnt consistant enough to cause a big drug build up.
So i did some searching on what can cause low DHEA-S levels, and low and behold, chronic stress and stimulants can stress the adrenals, causing adrenal fatigue, which can cause low DHEA-S.
Then i found thid article stating the side effects on adrenal fatigue, and low DHEA-S,ect. And they correlated with my side effects, even the water retention was one of them.
http://bodybuilding.com/fun/behar2.htm
Could the dutasteride have contributed? Who knows, i think it played a role because i couldnt tolerate stress anymore, but the stimulants were the main factor because i bounced back in the past. I think i had low free T on dutasteride, and was in a weakened state.
stax
Experienced Member
- Reaction score
- 4
To add my final point directed at the original posters question, YES dutasteride and finasteride can increase your bodyfat when taken alone, basically in the female pattern due to increased Estrogen in the absence of DHT, which is a potent estrogen antagonist.
Your Total Testosterone will increase initially, but your free Testosterone can drop, and over time yout Total Testosterone may drop due to the increase in Estrogen. The increase in estrogen may also impair your thyroid function, and cause a whole other host of problems.
I am trying to put together a comprehensive supplement protocol that will allow me to use finasteride and mostly dutasteride, without the sides.
If i do decide to go this route and it works, i will post the info.
But if you re experiencing sides on finasteride or dutasteride, i suggest you either quit the drugs, or use low dose AIMF or Aromasin to bring your estradiol levels down and increase T, which should help out and protect from gyno and increase fat in the female pattern.
Your Total Testosterone will increase initially, but your free Testosterone can drop, and over time yout Total Testosterone may drop due to the increase in Estrogen. The increase in estrogen may also impair your thyroid function, and cause a whole other host of problems.
I am trying to put together a comprehensive supplement protocol that will allow me to use finasteride and mostly dutasteride, without the sides.
If i do decide to go this route and it works, i will post the info.
But if you re experiencing sides on finasteride or dutasteride, i suggest you either quit the drugs, or use low dose AIMF or Aromasin to bring your estradiol levels down and increase T, which should help out and protect from gyno and increase fat in the female pattern.
I've read the Pat Arnold article before. I don't disagree with the general point that DHT has useful functions in the male body (as well as negative ones). However, even as a non-expert, I'd question some assertions - notably estrogen as a causative factor in BPH. Bryan has posted a study indicating that "there was no effect at all on BPH with either dose of [an] aromatase inhibitor... That was surprising and unexpected, because of all the interest and speculation in recent years about the role of estrogen in the etiology of prostate disease. The authors of the study were quite open about their puzzlement and disappointment over the lack of results."
This is the study you were interested into the postive impact of T of the body composition of older men, even when combined with finasteride.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... /90/3/1502
I don't believe that DHT inhibition at the levels caused by normal doses of finasteride or dutasteride 'causes' fatigue. These are the results from the phase II Glaxo dutasteride hair loss trial (thus a sample of younger men, on average, than the BPH drug studies). Notice the comparable prevalence of fatigue in both treatment and placebo groups. The one exception is the 2.5mg/day dutasteride group which does appear to be significantly different.
Finasteride seems to be discounted as a 'cause' of aggressive prostate cancer - as I said, the increased prevalence of high Gleason scores seems to be due to acertainment bias.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/HematologyO ... er/tb/3942
The Propecia product monograph says that "finasteride has no affinity for the androgen receptor and has no androgenic, antiandrogenic, estrogenic, antiestrogenic, or progestational effects." Here's more info:
http://www.propecia.com/finasteride/pro ... drogen.jsp
This is the study you were interested into the postive impact of T of the body composition of older men, even when combined with finasteride.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... /90/3/1502
I don't believe that DHT inhibition at the levels caused by normal doses of finasteride or dutasteride 'causes' fatigue. These are the results from the phase II Glaxo dutasteride hair loss trial (thus a sample of younger men, on average, than the BPH drug studies). Notice the comparable prevalence of fatigue in both treatment and placebo groups. The one exception is the 2.5mg/day dutasteride group which does appear to be significantly different.
Finasteride seems to be discounted as a 'cause' of aggressive prostate cancer - as I said, the increased prevalence of high Gleason scores seems to be due to acertainment bias.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/HematologyO ... er/tb/3942
The Propecia product monograph says that "finasteride has no affinity for the androgen receptor and has no androgenic, antiandrogenic, estrogenic, antiestrogenic, or progestational effects." Here's more info:
http://www.propecia.com/finasteride/pro ... drogen.jsp