Injectable Finasteride & Topical Dutasteride

[AndrewBarnes]

Right now I'm on oral finasteride 1mg daily and I have absolutely no symptoms. Oral finasteride reduces Type 2 DHT by 70% but my goal is to reduce it by 90+%. I tried Dutasteride but it makes my libido non existent (I think it's because it blocks type 1 and type 2 DHT). A single drop of Dutasteride will give me libido issues. If I inject finasteride by turning finasteride powder into a solution and injecting it subcutaneously, I feel like I'll increase the bioavailability of the finasteride and thus reduce more DHT. I'm also going to try topical Dutasteride and see if I experience any symptoms. Would appreciate any feedback.

 

[AndrewBarnes]

Are there any other ways to significantly reduce Type 2 DHT?

 

[whatevr]

There is no type 1 and type 2 DHT.

There are only type 1 and 2 (and 3) 5-alpha reductases.

Serum DHT is the result of spillover DHT from tissues. The reason dutasteride inhibits 90%+ serum DHT is because it also inhibits DHT production in those tissues that produce it via type 1 5 alpha reductase.

In other words to get the remaining 30% of DHT after Finasteride, you HAVE to go after type 1 5AR. You may get a few more % inhibition by using some very high dosage of Finasteride (the long term safety of which is even more questionable), but IMO this is ludicrous idea, as is injecting it.

 

[corkmeister]

Like whatevr said, dutasteride is the way to go if you want to reduce more dht beyond what 5-ar type 2 produces. It's possible to inhibit 5-ar type 1 with finasteride, but you'd have to add huge amounts, illustrated by the following graph:

The only alternative I could think of is using finasteride alongside MK-386, a 5ar-inhbitor which primarily targets type 1 (but was never brought to market). But at that point you might as well just use dutasteride. Some people also believe Zix (see the alternative treatments subforum) inhibits 5ar-type 1 to some degree, although there's no real data to support that. It's scarcely mentioned in the literature, although a lot of it concerns in vitro.

(5) Some cations, especially zinc, have been reported to reduce sebum production in vivo and have been used to treat acne. In vitro assays have indicated that zinc specifically inhibits 5α-R1. This inhibition may be mediated both by non-competitive inhibition of T binding to 5α-R and by reduced formation of the NADPH co-factor.

 

[AndrewBarnes]

Like whatevr said, dutasteride is the way to go if you want to reduce more dht beyond what 5-ar type 2 produces. It's possible to inhibit 5-ar type 1 with finasteride, but you'd have to add huge amounts, illustrated by the following graph:

View attachment 148733

The only alternative I could think of is using finasteride alongside MK-386, a 5ar-inhbitor which primarily targets type 1 (but was never brought to market). But at that point you might as well just use dutasteride. Some people also believe Zix (see the alternative treatments subforum) inhibits 5ar-type 1 to some degree, although there's no real data to support that. It's scarcely mentioned in the literature, although a lot of it concerns in vitro.

(5) Some cations, especially zinc, have been reported to reduce sebum production in vivo and have been used to treat acne. In vitro assays have indicated that zinc specifically inhibits 5α-R1. This inhibition may be mediated both by non-competitive inhibition of T binding to 5α-R and by reduced formation of the NADPH co-factor.

Maybe I'm reading the chart wrong but the chart says 5AR1 was inhibited and 5AR2 stayed the same. My question is why would 5AR1 be inhibited if it's well known finasteride selectively targets the type 2 5AR enzyme?

 

[AndrewBarnes]

There is no type 1 and type 2 DHT.

There are only type 1 and 2 (and 3) 5-alpha reductases.

Serum DHT is the result of spillover DHT from tissues. The reason dutasteride inhibits 90%+ serum DHT is because it also inhibits DHT production in those tissues that produce it via type 1 5 alpha reductase.

In other words to get the remaining 30% of DHT after Finasteride, you HAVE to go after type 1 5AR. You may get a few more % inhibition by using some very high dosage of Finasteride (the long term safety of which is even more questionable), but IMO this is ludicrous idea, as is injecting it.

Thanks for clearing up for me that there isn't 2 types of DHT. It makes sense that dutasteride would inhibit more dht since it reduces type 1 5AR but according to studies it's also more potent at reducing type 2 5AR versus finasteride. "three times more potent than finasteride in inhibiting type 2 5AR"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6388756/
I can see why injecting finasteride is unorthodox but I don't see why it's a ludicrous idea. finasteride is well tolerated even at high doses (according to a study there was no adverse effects at 80mg for 3 months) and there's also been studies where finasteride was administered via injection. The injection will increase the effectiveness and hopefully reduce DHT further.

I would take dutasteride instead but the reduction of the type 1 5AR enzyme gives me libido issues. I placed one drop of dutasteride into an empty capsule and I still experienced a decreased libido for a few days. An interesting thing to mention is that if I removed the serum inside the dutasteride capsule and ingested the serum it with water, I could take the entire 0.5mg of dutasteride without experiencing any libido issues, which means ingesting dutasteride without putting it inside a capsule makes it useless and destroys the integrity of the compound.

Would taking Cialis mitigate the effects of libido loss I experience from oral dutasteride?

 

[corkmeister]

Maybe I'm reading the chart wrong but the chart says 5AR1 was inhibited and 5AR2 stayed the same. My question is why would 5AR1 be inhibited if it's well known finasteride selectively targets the type 2 5AR enzyme?

You're misreading the chart. It doesn't illustrate total levels of 5ar, but rather the inhibition rate. Finasteride greatly inhibits 5ar-2, and slightly inhibits 5ar-1.

I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding how this works. You say your goal is to reduce circulating dht by 90%+ rather than only 70%. However, 5-ar type 2 is responsible for roughly 70% of dht, whereas 5-ar type 1 is responsible for the remaining 30%. Therefore, to get to that level of reduction, you'd need to inhibit 5-ar type 1 in addition to type 2. There's no way around this. You may be able to achieve this by taking enormous doses of finasteride, but the benefit would come from the fact that finasteride also inhibits type 1 at such high dosages. So you might as well be taking dutasteride at that point.

To summarize, even if you were to inhibit every single 5-ar type 2 enzyme in your body, you'd still have 30% of your dht left. Any further reduction beyond that point must be the result of inhibiting type 1. Ingesting/injecting high doses of finasteride would allow you to come as close as possible to the 70% ceiling, but at that point it's probably affecting type 1 too.

Finally, while Cialis does nothing for your libido, it helps you get/maintain erections. So I suppose it could help mitigate the effects/symptoms, but not the underlying problem.

By the way, I can't discount your personal experiences but I find it very unlikely that removing dutasteride from the capsule and then ingesting it makes it ineffective.

 

[AndrewBarnes]

You're misreading the chart. It doesn't illustrate total levels of 5ar, but rather the inhibition rate. Finasteride greatly inhibits 5ar-2, and slightly inhibits 5ar-1.

I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding how this works. You say your goal is to reduce circulating dht by 90%+ rather than only 70%. However, 5-ar type 2 is responsible for roughly 70% of dht, whereas 5-ar type 1 is responsible for the remaining 30%. Therefore, to get to that level of reduction, you'd need to inhibit 5-ar type 1 in addition to type 2. There's no way around this. You may be able to achieve this by taking enormous doses of finasteride, but the benefit would come from the fact that finasteride also inhibits type 1 at such high dosages. So you might as well be taking dutasteride at that point.

To summarize, even if you were to inhibit every single 5-ar type 2 enzyme in your body, you'd still have 30% of your dht left. Any further reduction beyond that point must be the result of inhibiting type 1. Ingesting/injecting high doses of finasteride would allow you to come as close as possible to the 70% ceiling, but at that point it's probably affecting type 1 too.

Finally, while Cialis does nothing for your libido, it helps you get/maintain erections. So I suppose it could help mitigate the effects/symptoms, but not the underlying problem.

I just read about how ED drugs eventually lose their effectiveness after a few years due to tachyphylaxis so that's not a viable long term solution.

I don't think you're understanding my goal. My goal is NOT to reduce circulating DHT by 90%, my goal is to reduce 5AR-2 inhibition by 90%. I understand that finasteride reduces circulating DHT by 70% but finasteride doesn't inhibit 5AR-2 by 90%. Dutasteride is 3 times more potent at inhibiting 5AR-2 than finasteride and my goal is to increase 5AR-2 inhibition by increasing fins effectiveness by injecting it. If the finasteride begins to inhibit type 1 5AR then I'll experience a decrease in libido then I'll know that's the max dose I can tolerate. According to your chart, 100mg of finasteride reduced DHT by roughly 25% more compared to 5mg finasteride.

 

[corkmeister]

I just read about how ED drugs eventually lose their effectiveness after a few years due to tachyphylaxis so that's not a viable long term solution.

I don't think you're understanding my goal. My goal is NOT to reduce circulating DHT by 90%, my goal is to reduce 5AR-2 inhibition by 90%. I understand that finasteride reduces circulating DHT by 70% but finasteride doesn't inhibit 5AR-2 by 90%. Dutasteride is 3 times more potent at inhibiting 5AR-2 than finasteride and my goal is to increase 5AR-2 inhibition by increasing fins effectiveness by injecting it. If the finasteride begins to inhibit type 1 5AR then I'll experience a decrease in libido then I'll know that's the max dose I can tolerate. According to your chart, 100mg of finasteride reduced DHT by roughly 25% more compared to 5mg finasteride.

My bad, then I misunderstood you. Yes, then you'll need to find the highest possible dose of finasteride that doesn't inhibit 5-ar type 1. But keep in mind that a lot of the increased benefit from 100mg doses comes from type 1 inhibition. That being said, injecting finasteride just to reduce dht a little bit more does seem like a strange idea to me. Good luck though.

 

[AndrewBarnes]

My bad, then I misunderstood you. Yes, then you'll need to find the highest possible dose of finasteride that doesn't inhibit 5-ar type 1. But keep in mind that a lot of the increased benefit from 100mg doses comes from type 1 inhibition. That being said, injecting finasteride just to reduce dht a little bit more does seem like a strange idea to me. Good luck though.

You could be right about the 100mg dose being more effective due to increased 5AR-1 inhibition. I'll find out if you're right soon but the finasteride powder I ordered from TheKaneShop is taking forever to arrive. I have a hair catcher that I use to see how much hair I'm losing in the shower and if the amount of hair I lose doesn't decrease after injecting finasteride then I'll just stick with oral finasteride.

The only other option I have in reducing DHT is applying dutasteride to my scalp and hope it doesn't give me sides. Dutasteride has a molecular mass of 528.53 g/mol so it's less likely to go systemic compared to topical finasteride.

 

[jazz1]

I been on Topical Finasteride for over 10 years my friend uses 0.1% Topical Finasteride and 1mg every 3rd day he’s had great results.

The compound pharmacy I use sells Topical Dutasteride see my thread they give discount to forum members:

Topical Finasteride

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...oxidil-finasteride-mixture-check-here.126633/

Topical Dutasteride

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...asteride-minoxidil-mixture-check-here.128666/

Mesotherapy is the one to inject Topical Finasteride and Dutasteride but I believe this is done every few weeks......

 

[Canuto]

I been on Topical Finasteride for over 10 years my friend uses 0.1% Topical Finasteride and 1mg every 3rd day he’s had great results.

The compound pharmacy I use sells Topical Dutasteride see my thread they give discount to forum members:

Topical Finasteride

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...oxidil-finasteride-mixture-check-here.126633/

Topical Dutasteride

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...asteride-minoxidil-mixture-check-here.128666/

Mesotherapy is the one to inject Topical Finasteride and Dutasteride but I believe this is done every few weeks......

It feels like an AD that pops out while you're watching YouTube or a movie.
You're scrolling through thread and then suddenly there's your message with the usual "I've been on Topical Finasteride for..."

No offense pal, it was just to tease you a bit.

 

[AndrewBarnes]

It feels like an AD that pops out while you're watching YouTube or a movie.
You're scrolling through thread and then suddenly there's your message with the usual "I've been on Topical Finasteride for..."

No offense pal, it was just to tease you a bit.

Haha I agree

 

[AndrewBarnes]

According to Wikipedia, "The mean oral bioavailability of finasteride is approximately 65%."
I'm hoping injections will increase that amount and yield me better results.

 

[corkmeister]

According to Wikipedia, "The mean oral bioavailability of finasteride is approximately 65%."
I'm hoping injections will increase that amount and yield me better results.

I have to admit I'm not well versed in bioavailability, but why wouldn't you just use a higher dose to compensate for the first pass metabolism effect? And how often do you intend to inject yourself with finasteride?

If I were you, I would instead focus on achieving maximum dht/5ar2 reduction in the scalp directly, rather than 'indirectly' though serum. Why not use topical finasteride with microneedling, for example?

 

[Mustang]

Why the hell would anybody want to nuke their plasma DHT.

Hormones are there for a reason. Libido, brain fog, gyno, ED, depression, anxiety and reduced memory

Sounds lovely. Just block it where you have to block it, leave other tissues alone.

 

[AndrewBarnes]

I have to admit I'm not well versed in bioavailability, but why wouldn't you just use a higher dose to compensate for the first pass metabolism effect? And how often do you intend to inject yourself with finasteride?

If I were you, I would instead focus on achieving maximum dht/5ar2 reduction in the scalp directly, rather than 'indirectly' though serum. Why not use topical finasteride with microneedling, for example?

I'm planning to mix the finasteride powder with a BAC solution and inject 1mg daily to start and eventually increase if I experience no negative side effects. I have increased the dose of finasteride to 5mg with no side effects but also no noticeable gains. I'm not sure if the injections will give me better results but I'm curious to see since the risks are pretty low. I also plan on using the finasteride powder to create a topical finasteride solution. I'm just throwing a bunch of darts at the wall and hopefully one or a couple stick lol.

I read a few posts about dutasteride and finasteride causing gyno, and I was wondering if the reason I experience libido issues with dutasteride is due to high estrogen levels? Maybe if I take an AI it will improve my libido? I need to do more research on how much dutasteride increases E levels.

 

[AndrewBarnes]

Why the hell would anybody want to nuke their plasma DHT.

Hormones are there for a reason. Libido, brain fog, gyno, ED, depression, anxiety and reduced memory

Sounds lovely. Just block it where you have to block it, leave other tissues alone.

If I experienced any of those symptoms I would obviously quit or lower the dose. That's why I don't take dutasteride, it gives me low libido (maybe due to high estrogen)

 

[Mustang]

Just use topical dutasteride man
It's not that complex.

 

[AndrewBarnes]

Just use topical dutasteride man
It's not that complex.

I know that's actually one of the treatments I will try. Hopefully it works. finasteride powder and dutasteride powder coming in this Thursday