Investigating An "immuno-androgenic" Model Of male pattern baldness

[baldboys]

[QUOTE="baldboys, post: 1501666, member: 117264"]Im pretty sure everyone knows Androgenetic Alopecia is auto immune by now. But while the immune system is the executioner, killing you beautiful follicles, DHT is the bastad that marks then for death. Also, whats an easyer target? Your immune system - meaning good old immune supression wich has been proven too fail on its own (see corticoids vs Androgenetic Alopecia) or targeting DHT, the real culprit of all this sh*t? I think its quite straitght foward.

Not even close.[/QUOTE]

Literally eveyrone is complaining about the itch, anti inflamatorys threads are going on everywhere. Inflamation = immune reaction.

 

[GiveMeAccessToMyAccount]

Literally eveyrone is complaining about the itch, anti inflamatorys threads are going on everywhere. Inflamation = immune reaction.

Ok, you mean everyone in the forum. I thought you meant everyone as in, all dermatologists, scientists worldwide, normal people who are just finding out they're losing their hair.

I took it out of context.

 

[plisk]

let me enlarge that for you, cause it seens you couldnt see it: "Once the immune system has ended its act there is no reversing". Once you are bald, you are bald, there wont be any drug that will reverse that, only hair cloning or peharps neogenisis as staded by follicula. DHT is the kick starter, of course after the genetical sensibility to it, if you cut DHT on the beggining of the all process you stop the process. There wont ever be a clinical solution that will regrow hair that is long gone. Again, once the act is done ITS DONE.

there is more success in treating autoimmune conditions then there ever has been in reversing hair loss by trying to crudely systemically impede androgens

The immune aspects remain largely unchartered territory, so your polemic about ITS DONE is actually just you pulling sh*t out of your ***. You don't know anything about it, in fact, that there have been cases of regrowth after years of frank baldness whether by wounding or by systemic estrogen administration pretty much proves you don't know what you're talking about. Your DHT obsession on the other hand has been explored, as you say, for over 50 years. Its a dead end.

Whats your suggestion, we start treating pre-pubertal kids with finasteride? Because thats the only practical next step to this obsessive focus on DHT.

 

[baldboys]

there is more success in treating autoimmune conditions then there ever has been in reversing hair loss by trying to crudely systemically impede androgens

The immune aspects remain largely unchartered territory, so your polemic about ITS DONE is actually just you pulling sh*t out of your ***. You don't know anything about it, in fact, that there have been cases of regrowth after years of frank baldness whether by wounding or by systemic estrogen administration pretty much proves you don't know what you're talking about. Your DHT obsession on the other hand has been explored, as you say, for over 50 years. Its a dead end.

Whats your suggestion, we start treating pre-pubertal kids with finasteride? Because thats the only practical next step to this obsessive focus on DHT.

No. The next pratical step is an 5 alfa redutase that doesnt go sistemic and acts only in the hair follicle. And every auto imune disease has basically the same treatment, wich are corticoesteroids, wich are pretty harmful in the long run AND have already been proved to do nothing hairloss wise, cause SURPISE, people tought about this before.

 

[bassa]

Killing two birds with one stone: oral tofacitinib reverses alopecia universalis in a patient with plaque psoriasis.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24940651

interesting discussion of people using this for several months.... looks like to be mostly AU

http://www.alopeciaworld.com/forum/...rial?id=2022678:Topic:1209278&page=1#comments

 

[plisk]

Name one thing though that can regrow large amounts of hair? Oh right there arent any. That is why the nuke the DHT thing is still around because the only practical treatment is propecia/dutasteride and trying to prevent male pattern baldness from getting worse. No one knows how to regrow hair or duh we would be doing that instead.
The theory is terrific, but what physical product actually regrows hair using that? If you cant apply your theory of suppressing or stopping the immune system from attacking hair what good is it?

what good is continuing to do the same thing you've always done with no results? That's literal insanity, so thank f*** you're not a professional researcher.

You can't create a theory if you don't explore new information, you dumb c***. BRB its the late 1800s and im a physician treating people for what will become known as diabetes, I'm giving them supplemental sugar to replace what seems to be coming out in their urine. Theres nothing better so lets just keep doing this forever and ever and ever.

 

[GiveMeAccessToMyAccount]

let me enlarge that for you, cause it seens you couldnt see it: "Once the immune system has ended its act there is no reversing". Once you are bald, you are bald, there wont be any drug that will reverse that, only hair cloning or peharps neogenisis as staded by follicula. DHT is the kick starter, of course after the genetical sensibility to it, if you cut DHT on the beggining of the all process you stop the process. There wont ever be a clinical solution that will regrow hair that is long gone. Again, once the act is done ITS DONE.

But do you feel that there are exceptions? For example, what about the success story section, where people clearly "thicken" hair where there were no visible hairs?

Also, for me (and others), minoxidil has regrown vellus hairs on my forehead and under my current hairline and temples where even under a strong flashlight there wasn't even a hint of hair there. To be fair, these vellus hairs go from little tiny baby hairs that even if you pass your finger through it you won't really feel it even if you go "against the grain", to more noticeable vellus hairs that if you pass your finger by it now they will feel "fuzzy", and you need less light to see them but eventually they never quite seem to turn terminal. But that is regrowth though, I just don't understand how can minoxidil grow vellus hairs in seemingly bald spots but then those vellus hairs never seem to turn terminal.

 

[baldboys]

what good is continuing to do the same thing you've always done with no results? That's literal insanity, so thank f*** you're not a professional researcher.

You can't create a theory if you don't explore new information, you dumb c***. BRB its the late 1800s and im a physician treating people for what will become known as diabetes, I'm giving them supplemental sugar to replace what seems to be coming out in their urine. Theres nothing better so lets just keep doing this forever and ever and ever.

Except giving sugar to replace lost sugar in the urine wont do jack and kill your f*****g patient, meanwhile 5 alfa redutase inibitors a proved to work in the vast majority of people. Also, the next step is not doing tackling the imune aspect, but finding new ways of using the already perfect population of dht non responding cell we have (aka replicell and tsuji). What the f*** do you do with your life bro? Do you have any kind of penetration in any area related to healthy or biology? Or maybe anything even related to science? Or are you just one more google academic?

 

[baldboys]

But do you feel that there are exceptions? For example, what about the success story section, where people clearly "thicken" hair where there were no visible hairs?

Also, for me (and others), minoxidil has regrown vellus hairs on my forehead and under my current hairline and temples where even under a strong flashlight there wasn't even a hint of hair there. To be fair, these vellus hairs go from little tiny baby hairs that even if you pass your finger through it you won't really feel it even if you go "against the grain", to more noticeable vellus hairs that if you pass your finger by it now they will feel "fuzzy", and you need less light to see them but eventually they never quite seem to turn terminal. But that is regrowth though, I just don't understand how can minoxidil grow vellus hairs in seemingly bald spots but then those vellus hairs never seem to turn terminal.

Of course there are exceptions, there aways are. See the transgeders that swoop aways like to post. There must be a time window to reverse hair loss thought the right combination of farmaceuticals and therapys. But i dont think this window will be open for us or even ever be developed, as the celular approach seens as an way easyer solution then trying to trace every factor in a multifactorial syndrome that hasnt been solved in over 50 years of study.

 

[Prada1]

If it is immune related wouldn't that mean that men with male pattern baldness who took immunosuppresants (for whatever reason) like Imuran or Cyclosporin would see significant hair regrowth?

 

[DoctorHouse]

If it is immune related wouldn't that mean that men with male pattern baldness who took immunosuppresants (for whatever reason) like Imuran or Cyclosporin would see significant hair regrowth?

Guess if you apply Restasis to your scalp, you could find out. I don't think anyone has tried that before. I guess maybe because Restasis is not cheap.

 

[pegasus2]

Of course there are exceptions, there aways are. See the transgeders that swoop aways like to post. There must be a time window to reverse hair loss thought the right combination of farmaceuticals and therapys. But i dont think this window will be open for us or even ever be developed, as the celular approach seens as an way easyer solution then trying to trace every factor in a multifactorial syndrome that hasnt been solved in over 50 years of study.

Does that mean rubbing horse manure on your head or bacon grease?

 

[That Guy]

Name one thing though that can regrow large amounts of hair? Oh right there arent any. That is why the nuke the DHT thing is still around because the only practical treatment is propecia/dutasteride and trying to prevent male pattern baldness from getting worse. No one knows how to regrow hair or duh we would be doing that instead.
The theory is terrific, but what physical product actually regrows hair using that? If you cant apply your theory of suppressing or stopping the immune system from attacking hair what good is it?

Minoxidil + wounding.

Anyway,

As I've said so many times on these forums, the whole "Androgenetic Alopecia is auto-immune" is simply a cope and solving whatever immune component exists won't bring back your lost follicles.

The DHT being the driving factor is also a proven fact.

You need something that does three things: Prevent miniaturization, reverse miniaturization, and grow brand new hair.

 

[Armando Jose]

It is an immune dysfunction that would potentially explain chronic inflammation response.

or better, it is a chronic inflammation response that would potentially explain immune dysfunction?

OTOH, the important hormones are created inside pilosebaceous unit

 

[DoctorHouse]

Inaccurate. It has only been proven that DHT is necessary for progression and never been proven to be the primary factor. You don't even need to try too hard to disprove that, just consider the fact that lots of high DHT generating individuals don't go bald ever.

And also consider then that the 286 genes identified with male pattern balding still don't garrauntee male pattern balding...

And you didn't even address the point that even when DHT is removed from system that the stem cells do not receive the signal to initiate the hair cycle as occurs in non balding individuals...
Nor did you address the immunodeficient mouse experiment which DID regenerate vellus male pattern baldness transplanted hairs in the presence of DHT....
In fact you didn't even read my opening post, you just weighed in by parroting off the brain dead mantra that you've been fed, and then stated "fact" afterwards....

Some of you guys are absolute f*****g wankers.

This thread is turning into another one of "those" threads on here with all these derogatory names. I can't believe why people can't keep their "egos" in their pants and just state your point without having to "kill the messenger". I guess the frustration of a constant 5 year wait promise could do more damage than good.

 

[InBeforeTheCure]

If you really look at it, hair loss is a form of an "autoimmune process". It's your body attacking your hair follicles and destroying them to the point they don't recycle new hair. Dr Proctor has discussed this back in the day. However, the general theory is that DHT is involved. So many conditions have an autoimmune component like Lupus, Hashimoto's, Alopecia areata, Rheumatoid arthritis, Type 1 Diabetes, Sjogren's syndrome and Sarcoidosis are just a few to mention.

Lupus, Hashimoto's, alopecia areata, rheumatoid arthritis, type 1 diabetes, Sjogren's syndrome and sarcoidosis all share similar genetics. The HLA (major histocompatibility complex) cluster is associated with all of them, and they also share genes related to things like T-cell function and JAK-Stat signaling - genes and pathways related to immunity. No surprise given all these are autoimmune diseases.

A.G.A looks completely different. There's no association whatsoever with the HLA cluster, no T-cell specific genes that I can tell, and nothing from the JAK-Stat pathway. So @Ted Buckland...If A.G.A had a major primary immune component, wouldn't the lack of immunity-related genes be strange?

 

[DoctorHouse]

Lupus, Hashimoto's, alopecia areata, rheumatoid arthritis, type 1 diabetes, Sjogren's syndrome and sarcoidosis all share similar genetics. The HLA (major histocompatibility complex) cluster is associated with all of them, and they also share genes related to things like T-cell function and JAK-Stat signaling - genes and pathways related to immunity. No surprise given all these are autoimmune diseases.

A.G.A looks completely different. There's no association whatsoever with the HLA cluster, no T-cell specific genes that I can tell, and nothing from the JAK-Stat pathway. So @Ted Buckland...If A.G.A had a major primary immune component, wouldn't the lack of immunity-related genes be strange?

I wish Dr Proctor was still around posting on here. He could answer alot these questions.

 

[paleocapa89]

If hair follicles are immune privileged why not transplant a balding follicle to a non balding man and a non balding follicle to a balding man. And the 2 man should have the same DHT level, then let's see what happens.

 

[westonci]

Testosterone > DHT > PGD > Cytokines & Inflammation > Autoimmune response that slowly kills the hair

 

[mdmnota]

I don't know if you've been on the forums that long or are just young, but most people I've encountered online will argue to the death that genetic sensitivity to DHT is the sole and only cause of male pattern hairloss, and the immune system has nothing to do with it.

but I'm glad people are starting to consider this less of a DHT problem, and more of an immune dysfunction.

The problem needs to be understood before it can be solved

This. We should find the root cause before we start looking for treatments.