Is Society On Its Way To Collapse ?

[INT]

@INT Let me start by saying that I do not consider you an incel...but you have shown that you do spend some time on their platforms.


Lol wut? You asked me what I understood under hypergamy and gave you link with a clear definition and even more info. I only read their wiki, since it's their best way of explaining their beliefs. My definition is their definition hence me posting it here (again I don't agree with everything the say though) And thanks for calling me an incel indirectly while saying you don't consider me incel, but I don't care and forgive you

If I say I do not consider you an incel it is because I do not consider you an incel. You can believe that or not. Exactly you copy-pasted... That is what I mean... You allign your beliefs with what someone else says because it sounds good en because it might tap into some of the insecurities/feelings you have. That is a dangerous thing to do if you want to maintain a certain level of cognitive independence.

Some of the consequences are less people being born, not even enough to replace the existing population. Weaker to foreign threats, social instability,... Of course there are more factors that go into play but the west turning more into a matriarchy is an important factor.

Overpopulation is the biggest treat we face so till a certain agree, it is a good thing. Weaker to foreign treats? Which countries have the biggest armies again? And the west turning into a matriarchy? Come on man... Just because it is less of a patriarchy than it was 100 years ago does not mean we are turning into a matriarchy...

And talking about happiness now? Let's look at some stats then. (But funny you say 80 years ago, when the west was at war, surely that was just an unintentional mistake from you...right





https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...-getting-more-miserable-theres-data-prove-it/

Oh look at how happy we became with all that "moral progress" friend! Btw, anti-depressant med usage is also at an all time high.

No I was not talking about happiness because it is idiotic to measure the effects of moral progress like that.... Ignorance can keep people happy. Living in a fairytale compared vs living in reality can also make people more happy. I would like to see the world for what it is, not live in an in illusion. It is easier to be happy that is black and white because it makes it easier to categorize good vs bad. In reality however, truly black vs white does not exist. It is not a coincidence that people with a higher education have higher risks of depression than their lower educated counterparts.

So to answer you question. Yes, outside the war period, I would've been happier in the past.

"Yeah I would like to live in the past, just not during the times where I don't..." The reason why we now no longer have world wars is because we learned from our mistakes in the past (=progress)

Yes let's put a label on it, you don't have a problem putting labels onto other people like incels now don't you?

My guy you literally posted a link from an incel wiki and you were the first one to bring up the term yourself.

You need to understand that moral progress doesn't mean it's automatically a good thing though.

Well that depends on your definition of moral progression.... the term morality is about 1000 times more open to subjective interpretation than hypergamy is. For me moral progress is closely connected to creating a world that is a better, more fair, less violent, more peaceful, more compassionate for more living beings than before. That can also mean, going back to previous values for all I care. It just so happens that that is rarely the case. The (hopefully soon) downfall of social media could be a good example of moral progress by going back to a previous state. As I said, progress is learning from mistakes and decide to do it better.

Sodom and gomorra is a story with a philosphical meaning/lesson, what does the "credibility" have to do with a story? It's a metaphore for what happens to society when "moral progress" goes to far, it destroys your society. Even an atheist like you can understand that concept right?

See what I wrote above.[/QUOTE]

 

[INT]

Imagine being so naive that you think 70 years of relative peace means that we have learned from our mistakes, and there won't be anymore bad wars. I've got news for you, war has been continuous since WW2, it just hasn't been felt by Western civilians. Ask people in the Middle East if they think humanity has evolved. The reason there haven't been more wars on the scale of WW1 and WW2 is because the United States has been an overwhelmingly dominant super power. Even at its peak the USSR would not have stood a chance against the US outside of destroying the whole world with nuclear weapons. Now that we are going back to a multipolar world the fight for dominance will get ugly again in the next couple decades. I wonder if there were people thinking during the Roman Peace 2,000 years ago that there would be no more large wars. Our current peace will not last nearly as long as that did.

I am obviously mostly talking about the West because that is moral moral progression has happened the most... And you have just as much of a crystal ball as I do so I would prefer to stick to information that we know vs what could maybe happen again one day.

I also did not mean to say that big wars will not happen again. Maybe I expressed myself not correct somewhere above. But at the moments, the biggest treats to the morally progressed West are coming from the nations that did not progress...

 

[INT]

Yes, we've progressed so far morally that we only bomb Muslims now lol

That's like saying that global warming does not exist because we had a mild summer last year.

 

[Matt3535]

lol this thread is a joke

 

[karatekid]

So what dude whats the point? who cares about bunch of virgin losers who cant f***? nobody owes no one anything, you talking like every man should have some privilage to f*** girls.
Dude society wont collapse because of bunch of virgins, and even if it will have some impact what do you even suggest to do? assign every virgin a girl and force her to suck his d*ck?
It has been like this since beginning of time, in all species, lots of males dont get a female and most dont pass their genes. Even in the past eras when the marriage institute was firmer, do you think they just f*ck like rabbits all their life? after a few years they got sick of each other just like today. And in most societies the partner was chosen for you, so good chance at least one of them wasnt even attracted to the other, the woman would probably sleep with her husband with disgust on her face, those are the ones you are jealous of?

Sorry if Im saying some things out of context, I didnt read the whole thread, just part of the comments....

 

[Timii]

So what dude whats the point? who cares about bunch of virgin losers who cant f***? nobody owes no one anything, you talking like every man should have some privilage to f*** girls.
Dude society wont collapse because of bunch of virgins, and even if it will have some impact what do you even suggest to do? assign every virgin a girl and force her to suck his d*ck?
It has been like this since beginning of time, in all species, lots of males dont get a female and most dont pass their genes. Even in the past eras when the marriage institute was firmer, do you think they just f*ck like rabbits all their life? after a few years they got sick of each other just like today. And in most societies the partner was chosen for you, so good chance at least one of them wasnt even attracted to the other, the woman would probably sleep with her husband with disgust on her face, those are the ones you are jealous of?

Sorry if Im saying some things out of context, I didnt read the whole thread, just part of the comments....

Yeah dude, it's just a bunch of virgins

 

[karatekid]

Yeah dude, it's just a bunch of virgins

View attachment 143488 View attachment 143487

Ok, so a big bunch of virgins, whatever. How is this a respond to anything I said?

 

[disfiguredyoungman]

So what dude whats the point? who cares about bunch of virgin losers who cant f***? nobody owes no one anything, you talking like every man should have some privilage to f*** girls.
Dude society wont collapse because of bunch of virgins, and even if it will have some impact what do you even suggest to do? assign every virgin a girl and force her to suck his d*ck?
It has been like this since beginning of time, in all species, lots of males dont get a female and most dont pass their genes. Even in the past eras when the marriage institute was firmer, do you think they just f*ck like rabbits all their life? after a few years they got sick of each other just like today.

Sorry if Im saying some things out of context, I didnt read the whole thread, just part of the comments....

Ok, so a big bunch of virgins, whatever. How is this a respond to anything I said?

I guess it's an innate human desire important for mental health and thus at the very bottom of the foundational needs of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. More and more men are deprived of this need. Now, whether you think society should be structured to serve the basic needs of as many people as possible and whether these men deserve it or not is a different question.
But the destabilizing effects of sexual frustration and a lack of prospects in the young male demographic for society are very well studied historically, sociologically and statistically. It's what's the driving mechanism in a 'Youth Bulge' and societies with such a characteristic almost always develop some agression either internally or externally...Crusades, ISIS, incel shootings, suicide bombers...you name it.
You can read up on Gunnar Heinsohn's 'Sons and World Power' to get aquainted with the phenomena and its context.

And in most societies the partner was chosen for you, so good chance at least one of them wasnt even attracted to the other, the woman would probably sleep with her husband with disgust on her face, those are the ones you are jealous of?

And this is just a very modern narrative. Physical attraction is not everything and from personal, historical documents we got a pretty good insight in the fact that love could actually develop despite or even because of these restraints. Contrary to feminist theory husband and wife faced hardships and catastrophes rather as a team instead of a master and slave relationship and this more often than not created a strong bond, probably stronger than what we get from modern marriages.

As I have hinted before my stance as a pretty libertarian person is this: If people decide to go down this path and live with the consequences it is their choice and they have the freedom to create hardships for themselves if they wish to do so. Maybe these hardships and destabilizing factors are worth the sexual freedom they enjoy, who knows.

What I consider to be intellectually dishonest though is to sugar coat these developments in the spirit of a new world propaganda and pretend that the issues and problems that come with it are none-existant or not of our concern.

 

[Derelict]

interesting debate, im not sure which side im leaning to but keep it up none the less, i think hypergamy and sexual frustration can definitely cause a lot of problems within society. I personally don't put THAT much value in to sex but i know im in the minority of guys when it comes to that so my view isn't the norm. The sense of companionship you get from having a relationship is definitely important to me though.

 

[karatekid]

well if you insist...

I guess it's an innate human desire important for mental health and thus at the very bottom of the foundational needs of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. More and more men are deprived of this need. Now, whether you think society should be structured to serve the basic needs of as many people as possible and whether these men deserve it or not is a different question.
But the destabilizing effects of sexual frustration and a lack of prospects in the young male demographic for society are very well studied historically, sociologically and statistically. It's what's the driving mechanism in a 'Youth Bulge' and societies with such a characteristic almost always develop some agression either internally or externally...Crusades, ISIS, incel shootings, suicide bombers...you name it.
You can read up on Gunnar Heinsohn's 'Sons and World Power' to get aquainted with the phenomena and its context.


And this is just a very modern narrative. Physical attraction is not everything and from personal, historical documents we got a pretty good insight in the fact that love could actually develop despite or even because of these restraints. Contrary to feminist theory husband and wife faced hardships and catastrophes rather as a team instead of a master and slave relationship and this more often than not created a strong bond, probably stronger than what we get from modern marriages.

As I have hinted before my stance as a pretty libertarian person is this: If people decide to go down this path and live with the consequences it is their choice and they have the freedom to create hardships for themselves if they wish to do so. Maybe these hardships and destabilizing factors are worth the sexual freedom they enjoy, who knows.

What I consider to be intellectually dishonest though is to sugar coat these developments in the spirit of a new world propaganda and pretend that the issues and problems that come with it are none-existant or not of our concern.

You talk about destabilizing effect of sexual frustration but your example dont really seem related. Crusades were due to religious, like most wars, same as for ISIS and suicide bombers - this is just an islamic terrorism, how is that related to sexual frustration? Im pretty sure ISIS dont have this problem since they rape their women (or women they capture). Incel shooting is not really a thing, I mean, yes maybe there were some cases of incel shootings but this is definitely not a 'phenomenon' or anything that should raise awareness, most society dont even know what incel is.
Bottom line, I dont think there will be any 'rise up' of some incel group even if their number will continue to go higher. Today's society is pretty stable (at least the west), so frustration cant be directed to agression, but rather they just keep watching their p**rn, following internet wh*res, buy sex dolls or whatever, as sad as it sound.
But to tell you the truth I dont feel much empathy since, even as a man, I have to say, that men's thirst is really going through the roof these days. Watching p**rn became norm, following instagram wh*res too, everywhere you go you hear guys talking only about that, especially in online sh*t which I hate in general. I see it everywhere, even in my close friend group. People just driven by their desire. And I mean, Im a straight man, would I like to date and sleep with girl? sure, but i dont let it control me, I have a self discipline and self respect. I never beg for a girl, definitely never pay for sex, never follow some wh***, and never let it effect my judgement. And stop the sh*t about fundamental need, a man need to know to control his mind.
In some way men brought that on themselves, girls today get so much attention on media and social media, that it contribute to the reduce in their need to find a partner. But this is just to some extent, which lead me to the last part which is the other end of the equation.
You talk only about how men are lonely but what about women? dont they get more lonely as well? I mean, less men have women, that means more women lonely as well. So yes, life is not simple as a man and a woman get together and stay to the rest of their lives, but rather a collection of experiences with the other gender such date, flings, sex, short term relationships and long term relationships. So yes of course in general the average woman has it much easier in the whole romantic area, but still, most of society is monogamous, and this is because mostly women WANT to have one partner (The reason that human are monogamous as I see it, is because women WANT to have just one partner, and man CANT have more than one, sometimes even not that as you probably agree). So basically for every incel, there is a guy that fucks at least 2 women, which means he cheats or break their heart or whatever, and then women get hurt, then become bitter or lonely as well, and overall it effects them deeply too. And I really can see it actually around me, as I already said here there are lots of single women where I work. So bottom line, everybody suffer to some degree, if it helps you feel better.

 

[disfiguredyoungman]

You talk about destabilizing effect of sexual frustration but your example dont really seem related. Crusades were due to religious, like most wars, same as for ISIS and suicide bombers - this is just an islamic terrorism, how is that related to sexual frustration? Im pretty sure ISIS dont have this problem since they rape their women (or women they capture). Incel shooting is not really a thing, I mean, yes maybe there were some cases of incel shootings but this is definitely not a 'phenomenon' or anything that should raise awareness, most society dont even know what incel is.

No. This is not at all a very thorough understanding of these phenomena. It is pretty much an accepted fact that one major drive for becoming a Crusader was that you were second or fourth in line of succession and thus had no real leverage to attract a proper mate and build a proper future and legacy for yourself. In the Near East you'd find land, women, prestige. I am not denying that spiritual motives played a role for many as well but there was a remarkable number of these wifeless, landless hedge knights among the Crusaders for a reason. Likewise during the capture of the Americas, the quest was not only riches but also women and very obviously so. The Spaniards basically bred the indigenous population out of existance.
And that IS part is just very circular flawed logic that should actually be apparent to you...yes if you where in ISIS you didn't have to be an incel beta ANYMORE because you'd rape women...women you captured from the Yazidis by being in ISIS...which was a major reason to actually join ISIS and played a huge role in the recruitment propaganda. Many people predicted an organization like ISIS in the Near East decades ago because of its demographic development and polygyny which is a constant source of unrest because a relatively small group of wealthy men can have a majority of women and the betas are left with almost no prospects of creating a family. The reward for dying a suicide bomber or during Jihad is 40 virgins in heaven, does it get more seethrough and vulgar than that?
As I said, I'd recommend you to at least read up on the basics of this theorem, it's a very interesting topic and maybe then we can have a proper discussion.
I am not sure how realistic a full on transparent, single minded beta uprising in the West would be, because as you rightfully stated unlike the Near East we at least have outlets like prostitution and other distractions but I am pretty it has a negative effect on society if only catalyzed in a vastly increased rate of aggravated assault in the public space, more shooting sprees, declining birthrates and a rising number of social withdrawal and suicides among young men. Destabilizing factors, as I said.

 

[Norwoodcel]

It's over.. since around 2015

Men and women have been meeting each other pretty much the same way for hundreds of years. Social interaction, it was a finely tuned process.

These smartphone apps have shaken things to the core and completely changed society.

 

[Norwoodcel]

2012, tinder came out that year. Mayas were right.

Yeah but it only became big and mainstream around about 2015.
I remember Tinder's early days.. even i got a few matches and managed to have a conversation with girls lasting longer than a few minutes.

 

[Derelict]

Is tinder really that bad? i have never used any dating sites before, do you have to look like brad pitt to get any sort of attention?

 

[Norwoodcel]

it's over for so many men

 

[DyingOfTheLight]

Never began. Lol but srs, it is what it is. Adept and accept it, no need to fight it, it will destroy itself sooner or later.

You're usually a pretty aware poster, devoid of self-delusion, but this is a cope of the first order.

Sure, history rhymes with itself, thesis-antithesis-synthesis, blablaba, all that metaphysical mumbo jumbo that lets us cope with the uncertainty of the future and the degeneracy of the present is insincere when we 1) understand how nebulous that idea really is ( e.g: the acceleration of technological innovation being an all-important unkown variable that can change the nature of society in every facet and disrupt (the seemingly) dialectical pattern of history) 2) regard the slow but steady shift of power in favour of women ( more and more men dropping out of society, especially the higher echelons, where the glass ceiling is now shattered, despite still brimming with old men; and more women filling in the vacuum of power) combined with a horde of men who will conform till death to an idea to improve their chances of sexual selection

In any case, maybe it is an idea that will cannibalize itself, but not without dragging society to the gutter with it.
I do agree, the dissolution of the patriarchy equals the fall of the west, for better or worse. Exchanging real power for imaginary 'moral' authority

 

[Magma]

You're usually a pretty aware poster, devoid of self-delusion, but this is a cope of the first order.

Sure, history rhymes with itself, thesis-antithesis-synthesis, blablaba, all that metaphysical mumbo jumbo that lets us cope with the uncertainty of the future and the degeneracy of the present is insincere when we 1) understand how nebulous that idea really is ( e.g: the acceleration of technological innovation being an all-important unkown variable that can change the nature of society in every facet and disrupt (the seemingly) dialectical pattern of history) 2) regard the slow but steady shift of power in favour of women ( more and more men dropping out of society, especially the higher echelons, where the glass ceiling is now shattered, despite still brimming with old men; and more women filling in the vacuum of power) combined with a horde of men who will conform till death to an idea to improve their chances of sexual selection

In any case, maybe it is an idea that will cannibalize itself, but not without dragging society to the gutter with it.
I do agree, the dissolution of the patriarchy equals the fall of the west, for better or worse. Exchanging real power for imaginary 'moral' authority

This thread is filled with incels. The fact is, most men find a woman they like eventually and grow to accept that they really don't need "stacey" to be validated and happy. That's a part of growing up and being an adult. That you won't be an astronaut, or have the dreamgirl/guy, and the perfect life. And they still find happiness in the joys of life.

 

[TomRiddle]

This thread is filled with incels. The fact is, most men find a woman they like eventually and grow to accept that they really don't need "stacey" to be validated and happy. That's a part of growing up and being an adult. That you won't be an astronaut, or have the dreamgirl/guy, and the perfect life. And they still find happiness in the joys of life.

Most are mentally ill mate, you can see it from their post histories, it's full of them on the internet, their under anonymity and they can say or do whatever, it's not like somebody actually knows them or could see them, in reality is harder for them to express it because most of them never leave the house anyways...

And also keep in mind that 99% of them are virgins, have never seen an actual real women and never had a relationship, and will all of that look at all of their writing about the subject trying to pretend through it that they actually know sh*t about something...It's amusing at start but after it turns into a tragedy when you see their "real faces"/mental illnesses and that they never stop and that this is what they do daily, some even for years now...

It's just an echo chamber, just like any other incel forum

 

[TomRiddle]

We're not even talking about "Staceys", problem is normal guys struggling to get a decent girl. That's what all this hypergamy sh*t is about.

Look below and tell me nothing is wrong:
View attachment 143652
Note: Female virginity only raised a bit compared to male virginity.

As i said, they never stop... Your incel studies from the incel wiki mean sh*t mate, they are poorly conducted and 99% of them have conflicts of interests and are biased. Social survey lmao... Get outside the house Pigeon, reality has nothing to do with incel forums.

And get it into that head of yours, for some men women will never exist and they never existed in the first place and it's not even because of looks, some of them really look great, they are just mentally unstable, full of bitterness and hate because of the people whom they surround themselves and encourage their behaviors and attitudes, they will never have relationships and die virgins and imagine why is that and why the numbers are slowly growing, it's because no woman would ever want these kind of "men" and how could you blame them for not wanting it?

Just imagine having an actual relationship with people that write this sh*t online, that have this mentalities and ideologies, one day you could end up dead because the incel next to you saw you speaking with another man or the many other shits that i have seen them writing all over the place, besides the fact that 99% of them don't wash, smoke weed and masturbate watching p**rn 24/7, no job, no hobbies, no friends, no nothing, who tf would want this?

Don't be fooled that if they write it on the internet it means that in reality they are different. Absolutely no f*****g body wants something like this, and that's why numbers are growing and more and more of them end up donating to twitch thotts and wasting their lives on incel forums...

But these growing numbers represent sh*t, their communities are equal to 0, that's why it's so easy to spot them and close their forums and so on, they are literally nothing, just a herd of frustrated mentally ill virgins who are whining 24/7 on internet forums, nothing more, and because they are taking it so far with their mental illnesses and some of them even started killing innocent people, like that god of them Eliot sh*t or what his name is, countries like Canada for example even introduced them into the terrorist acts, not as actual terrorists but for awareness of their group so people know and avoid them and if they continue with it, besides the FBI constantly watching them, they will be also hunted like actual terrorists....

https://globalnews.ca/news/7021882/rcmp-incel-terrorism-guide/

 

[Magma]

We're not even talking about "Staceys", problem is normal guys struggling to get a decent girl. That's what all this hypergamy sh*t is about.

Look below and tell me nothing is wrong:
View attachment 143652
Note: Female virginity only raised a bit compared to male virginity.

There is nothing worthwhile for me to comment here. This is not at all scientific or robust. You might as well make a general survey of people who have seen UFOs, and then shove that in scientists' face as some kind of proof and demanding an explanation.

average number of sexual partners

And that link even addresses the possibility of people lying about their number count. The funny thing is, even when you control for that, there's no way you end up with a non-significant minority of men being at 0.

This is much more compatible with people's realities and what they see in the real world. That incels are an almost nonexistent subset of the population.