Jesus Christ.... There Really Is No Evolutionary Advantage To male pattern baldness, Only Senility And Death

[INT]

Anyway, appearance always played a role. All animals have their own preferences. For example, Peacock has a very bright and beautiful tail. It is completely useless. Even harmful. But females prefer the most beautiful and largest tails. And if your tail is not good enough, then the female will not choose you. There are a lot of such examples. There is not only natural selection but also sexual selection. Even today, bald men have no problem creating a family and having children. I have bald both grandfathers .2 my uncles are balding, my dad is balding. They all have children. My friend’s father is absolutely bald. If someone says that because of baldness he can not find a girl, then he says nonsense.

I cannot remember the name of the theory about the tail of the peacock but it comes down to survival signalling: if he can manage to survive with a tail the unpractical then he must have good genes. At least that is how the theory goes. So then it is not about the beauty aspect but what it tells from a survival perspective.

This is all just a theory but interesting nontheless.

 

[alexfighter1111]

I cannot remember the name of the theory about the tail of the peacock but it comes down to survival signalling: if he can manage to survive with a tail the unpractical then he must have good genes. At least that is how the theory goes. So then it is not about the beauty aspect but what it tells from a survival perspective.

This is all just a theory but interesting nontheless.

I just simplified this theory. It’s clear that it’s not about beauty. Just because of some reason, the females choose the largest and most beautiful tails. And if your tail is bad, then you have little chance.
Well, girls also choose beautiful guys, not because they are beautiful, but because their instinct works. They subconsciously believe that handsome guys have good genes for their unborn children.

 

[Timii]

This is a random mutation that occurred hundreds of thousands of years ago. maybe even a million years ago. because even our closest relatives of chimpanzees go bald
There is no point in this mutation. But these genes exist because they do not prevent people from having children. and this is the most important thing why there are bald people now.

Yeah, but why hasn't sexual selection eradicated male pattern baldness from the gene pool yet? Humans in general perceive bald people as ugly and unhealthy, so I don't get how the baldness genes could survive the last millions of years

 

[Wolf Pack]

I'm not sure the height and baldness correlation is linked to the entire human population. Don't the orientals and native americans have some of the best hair genes going around not to mention ageing? Kim Jong is like 5ft 3 lol, one person but genetically they tend to be shorter with low set hairlines and quality hair. In fact southern europeans have much better hair than north europeans but are shorter. I didn't read your link properly but maybe the findings are specific to people of a certain geographical location.

That said, the link to cancer or other diseases wasn't new to me. male pattern baldness is an inflammatory disorder so it wouldn't surprise me if it is linked to other diseases where similar cytokine and prostaglandin mediators play a similar role. Aggressive premature baldness has been linked to early onset of cardiac diseases in quite a few studies. Pale skin lol? Again I think this is for a certain population like with height. Mens health just made a meal out of some old facts and some not well understood according to the studies.

I've read that baldness had an evolutionary advantage such as signalling wisdom/status (access to women/food/shelter) which always made me smile. I also read baldness was a way for a man to absorb more vit D from the sun to prevent certain cancers. Perhaps that's why there is more baldness in people who traditionally come from cooler climates?

 

[whatintheworld]

Yeah, but why hasn't sexual selection eradicated male pattern baldness from the gene pool yet? Humans in general perceive bald people as ugly and unhealthy, so I don't get how the baldness genes could survive the last millions of years

The desire for resources/survival superseded the negative impact of looks. That is obviously, in the modern world, becoming less and less applicable (for the most part in first world countries at least).

 

[whatintheworld]

This is nonsense. What is the point in the existence of genes that would prevent you from having children? If baldness were so bad, then it would not remain in our genes. But the fact is that most men lose their hair throughout their lives. Many people lose at a very young age, which confirms the stupidity of your statement.

I disagree. There were many other factors (and largely still are) in selecting a mate. They could have easily overridden the negative impact of baldness, given the dire circumstances of humanity for much of history considering life expectancy and overall quality of life in general. But modern times are obviously different.

 

[alexfighter1111]

Yeah, but why hasn't sexual selection eradicated male pattern baldness from the gene pool yet? Humans in general perceive bald people as ugly and unhealthy, so I don't get how the baldness genes could survive the last millions of years

Why? I do not know. Women should be asked to find out why they date bald and balding guys. Go out and you will see many bald men with beautiful girls. That is why no one seriously considers baldness as a serious problem. In general, hair is only part of the appearance. you can even say its most insignificant part. Height, face and body are much more important.

 

[alexfighter1111]

I disagree. There were many other factors (and largely still are) in selecting a mate. They could have easily overridden the negative impact of baldness, given the dire circumstances of humanity for much of history considering life expectancy and overall quality of life in general. But modern times are obviously different.

But if baldness would be as terrible as some write about it on this forum, then it would disappear. Imagine a mutation that would make a man look like a werewolf. By the way there are such people. Their face is completely covered with hair. And suppose 10% of all men would be like that. I give you a guarantee that such people would simply die out. They would not have a chance to stay among the people. Yes, someone could have children .But obvious that the absolute majority of women would prefer men without hair on their entire face. And every year more children would be born without these genes, because women would prefer normal men. There will be less and less people with such a mutation and as a result they will disappear. That's because men without this mutation were more successful.

 

[whatintheworld]

But if baldness would be as terrible as some write about it on this forum, then it would disappear. Imagine a mutation that would make a man look like a werewolf. By the way there are such people. Their face is completely covered with hair. And suppose 10% of all men would be like that. I give you a guarantee that such people would simply die out. They would not have a chance to stay among the people. Yes, someone could have children .But obvious that the absolute majority of women would prefer men without hair on their entire face. And every year more children would be born without these genes, because women would prefer normal men. There will be less and less people with such a mutation and as a result they will disappear. That's because men without this mutation were more successful.

It isn't as bad as some people say. For sure you can still get "a" girlfriend, "a" wife. But we all agree you will be at a disadvantage, I might add a big one, one that is greater in today's world than it was 50 years ago and much beyond.

In many cases the gene can first appear in you as well. My dad, both grandfathers and great grandfathers did not go bald. My cousin and brother are both thick Norwood 1's. Yet I was going to Norwood 6 at the age of 23. So it is a bit random as well.

 

[Capone]

Yeah, but why hasn't sexual selection eradicated male pattern baldness from the gene pool yet? Humans in general perceive bald people as ugly and unhealthy, so I don't get how the baldness genes could survive the last millions of years

Because a woman can have a beautiful head of hair and look great but her father was bald as a coot!

 

[swingline747]

I'm not sure the height and baldness correlation is linked to the entire human population. Don't the orientals and native americans have some of the best hair genes going around not to mention ageing? Kim Jong is like 5ft 3 lol, one person but genetically they tend to be shorter with low set hairlines and quality hair. In fact southern europeans have much better hair than north europeans but are shorter. I didn't read your link properly but maybe the findings are specific to people of a certain geographical location.

That said, the link to cancer or other diseases wasn't new to me. male pattern baldness is an inflammatory disorder so it wouldn't surprise me if it is linked to other diseases where similar cytokine and prostaglandin mediators play a similar role. Aggressive premature baldness has been linked to early onset of cardiac diseases in quite a few studies. Pale skin lol? Again I think this is for a certain population like with height. Mens health just made a meal out of some old facts and some not well understood according to the studies.

I've read that baldness had an evolutionary advantage such as signalling wisdom/status (access to women/food/shelter) which always made me smile. I also read baldness was a way for a man to absorb more vit D from the sun to prevent certain cancers. Perhaps that's why there is more baldness in people who traditionally come from cooler climates?

From just my outlook the evolutionary conversation of "why" baldness exists is never going to be explained because unless we had a massive study to work out the "averages" nothing would/could every be cemented. At the same time if something came out and explained "yes baldness has minor/severe disadvantages, here 5 reasons why!" a large swath of bald men would start crying and screaming how fake it is "because I have a beautiful wife and 5 kids!" never really looking within as to how he might be the exception and not the rule. Also women would have to be brutally honest and its known women (people) lie. Especially when put on a spot. True colors show though when push come to shove.

There are lots of reasons why baldness could still exist.

Sign of wisdom - yeah perpetuated long ago when you died at 28 and bald men were seen as those with longevity (equating to more wisdom) and therefore good genes. Same way that old wives tales says fat women were seen as attractive. It only meant fat people had access to food. It was a survival instinct.

Vitamin d (?really?) - So you absorb V-D but end up with a higher risk of skin cancer???? Thats just dumb (not attacking wolfpack Ive just heard that theory before)

bald guys get girls plenty, have wives and kids - yeah but again its an exception/rule. Most of the guys here (myself included) are just as shallow as the women who dont wan ta bald guy, yet somehow the guys sh*t on those girls. I have always had a staunch POV that I dont blame women for not wanting a bald guy. We wouldnt want a very many girls for whatever particular reasons. We always use the "well fat can be helped, bald cant!". Yeah? Oh well..... The fact is many guys will meet a girl very young pre balding and then try to lock them down before the balding sits in. Its a fact baldness causes many issues with men, anxiety included and many men get married before they are fully bald because of the anxiety. Theres also those who (the exceptions) do get married after bald but its usually for secondary requirement such as height/build, money, the woman is more desperate and willing to look past it (such as prior kids or age setting in, or shes just not that attractive herself). Then there is always the unicorn situation where the guy just got really lucky.

In todays day and age I think baldness is more vocally seen as an ewwwww situation many woman openly avoid and its pretty much widely accepted by society. I always found this funny because we live in an age now where loud weirdos will try and shame you into dating trans people!??!?!?! Odd times we live in.

The simple fact is yes, baldness has literally ZERO benefits.... thats just it, accept it. Same as being short. If I wanted to be funny I could say "well bald guys give up on girls and end up being inventors and scientists furthering society" but that just wouldnt be true, gauging by the vast amounts of baldos in their parents basements stuck on video games.


Why does baldness still exist? By chance... .thats it. Nothing deeper, no secret to know, no benefit. Basically "dumb luck". There is no advantage what so ever to why it exists.

Because a woman can have a beautiful head of hair and look great but her father was bald as a coot!

How many times have you heard a female say"no hes bald he reminds me of my dad, I could never sleep with him."

No woman ever says "ewwww no he has a full head of hair, so does my dad, that weird I cant sleep with him".

 

[Capone]

What? I’m saying the hair loss gene hasn’t been eradicated because from the beginning of time, a man will sleep with any female that will have him, he won’t care that the bald disease courses through her veins. Which in turn, spawns more creepy looking cue balls.

 

[whatintheworld]

What? I’m saying the hair loss gene hasn’t been eradicated because from the beginning of time, a man will sleep with any female that will have him, he won’t care that the bald disease courses through her veins. Which in turn, spawns more creepy looking cue balls.

That is a valid point and certainly part of it.

 

[Wolf Pack]

Sign of wisdom - yeah perpetuated long ago when you died at 28 and bald men were seen as those with longevity (equating to more wisdom) and therefore good genes. Same way that old wives tales says fat women were seen as attractive. It only meant fat people had access to food. It was a survival instinct.


Vitamin d (?really?) - So you absorb V-D but end up with a higher risk of skin cancer???? Thats just dumb (not attacking wolfpack Ive just heard that theory before)

I wouldn't take that as an attack bro, just your opinion! I was only putting those theories out there that I had heard. The wisdom one I agree is a load of crap, cavemen died by the time they were 30 and premature baldness is only 1-3% of cases so most balding men were max thick NW2.5-3 and had passed on their baldy genes. Older surviving baldies were probably not viewed too differently to full heads but it's difficult to be sure. They did have tribes back but they were loosely formed and very local. There was evidence of tribes or small families having various symbols made from stones and rocks to show where/who they belong to.

Vitamin D, ah I am not too sure we can dismiss it. Do you know low Vitamin D is a serious risk factor for prostate cancer? Even when people with prostate cancer are given vitamin D it can shrink the tumour. Evolution can happen due to natural selection, genetic drift or mutations. Baldness is most likely due to chance like you said (chance mutation) but I wouldn't be quick to rule out this vit d theory. male pattern baldness did not originate in our first ancestors out of Africa, it developed during the migration into Europe. Perhaps when the climate became colder and the prostate was more at risk, the body evolved to take in more vit D. There is no baldness in women in the same way, perhaps as no prostate. I don't think the body would be able to think more steps ahead and take into account the increasing risk of skin cancer with less hair. We generally became hairless anyway compared to before, look at our body hair, it's minimal compared to our ancestors. Doesn't that increase the risk of cancer? But also allows efficient cooling and prevents parasite infections which were more imminent concerns. I remember reading once of an insect which had to be very vocal to attract mates. That also proved to be it's undoing and a predator took it out. You would think natural selection would mean only the quiet ones would survive. However, as chance would have it, there was also a different camouflage colour forming at that time which meant the louder ones also had a better chance of surviving. Never underestimate nature

bald guys get girls plenty, have wives and kids - yeah but again its an exception/rule. Most of the guys here (myself included) are just as shallow as the women who dont wan ta bald guy, yet somehow the guys sh*t on those girls. I have always had a staunch POV that I dont blame women for not wanting a bald guy. We wouldnt want a very many girls for whatever particular reasons. We always use the "well fat can be helped, bald cant!". Yeah? Oh well..... The fact is many guys will meet a girl very young pre balding and then try to lock them down before the balding sits in. Its a fact baldness causes many issues with men, anxiety included and many men get married before they are fully bald because of the anxiety. Theres also those who (the exceptions) do get married after bald but its usually for secondary requirement such as height/build, money, the woman is more desperate and willing to look past it (such as prior kids or age setting in, or shes just not that attractive herself). Then there is always the unicorn situation where the guy just got really lucky.

In todays day and age I think baldness is more vocally seen as an ewwwww situation many woman openly avoid and its pretty much widely accepted by society. I always found this funny because we live in an age now where loud weirdos will try and shame you into dating trans people!??!?!?! Odd times we live in.

The simple fact is yes, baldness has literally ZERO benefits.... thats just it, accept it. Same as being short. If I wanted to be funny I could say "well bald guys give up on girls and end up being inventors and scientists furthering society" but that just wouldnt be true, gauging by the vast amounts of baldos in their parents basements stuck on video games.


Why does baldness still exist? By chance... .thats it. Nothing deeper, no secret to know, no benefit. Basically "dumb luck". There is no advantage what so ever to why it exists.



How many times have you heard a female say"no hes bald he reminds me of my dad, I could never sleep with him."

No woman ever says "ewwww no he has a full head of hair, so does my dad, that weird I cant sleep with him".

It could just be dumb luck like you say. I agree that there is nothing positive in baldness. Most women find it unattractive and like you I don't blame them for it. When I dated around, I looked for pretty girls too like anyone so why should they think differently. I looked for the entire package, this is human nature. One of the first comments I got from a friend about my gf all those years back was that she resembled a celeb. I think guys are way more visual and descriptive so we can cut women some slack on wanting to just see some hair lol, they make a lot of effort for their looks unlike us. But some men do pull off baldness well and it doesn't affect their life mentally or physically, that we must also accept and be balanced about. It's really hard when it's premature male pattern baldness and it happens growing up, that is a youth missed as you're an anomaly. You're right about the shaming into dating transsexuals, whilst I respect their own choices, they must respect ours!

 

[disfiguredyoungman]

The wisdom one I agree is a load of crap, cavemen died by the time they were 30 and premature baldness is only 1-3% of cases so most balding men were max thick NW2.5-3 and had passed on their baldy genes.

On top of that in todays hunterer gatherer societies/tribes baldness is virtually non-existant even in older individuals. Baldness seems to be a side effect of civilization for some reason.
When Japan industrialized baldness skyrocketed and now they are the baldy baldies of East Asia.

 

[Wolf Pack]

On top of that in todays hunterer gatherer societies/tribes baldness is virtually non-existant even in older individuals. Baldness seems to be a side effect of civilization for some reason.
When Japan industrialized baldness skyrocketed and now they are the baldy baldies of East Asia.

I'm not aware whether this happened in Japan or not. But you're right about hunter gatherers having less diseases, it's a mixture of more exercise but also diet, survival of fittest. I remember a study comparing nearsightedness in aboriginal children with western children and it turned out the aboriginal kids had far superior vision. I bet they will genetically be less prone to cardio and pulmonary disorders too.

 

[Haironnu]

I just simplified this theory. It’s clear that it’s not about beauty. Just because of some reason, the females choose the largest and most beautiful tails. And if your tail is bad, then you have little chance.
Well, girls also choose beautiful guys, not because they are beautiful, but because their instinct works. They subconsciously believe that handsome guys have good genes for their unborn children.

it's not that they believe it, it's proven to be the case and they are subconsciously attracted to it because it does mean better genetics.

good height= better genetics
symmetrical faces= better genetics

sculptured face and square jaw lines= indicates higher levels of testosterone as a baby and puberty= better genetics

women are not attracted to all these features for no reason, they are attracted to these features because they happen due to better genetics.

same for men, they made this study where they showed men several female body models, and most men were attracted the most to the hourglass female body (each body model had dimensions and measurements), it turns out that women who had that body type that most men were attracted to also had higher levels of estrogen and few other feminine hormones.

so as you can see humans are subconsciousaly attracted to certain physical features that occur if you have better genetics than others, thus increases the chances that your good genetics will pass on to their offsprings, and that's why they want you.

 

[Armando Jose]

I agree that there is nothing positive in baldness

+1, and more when common baldness eliminate our best form to differentiate among us. How babies can reach to his mother/father?

 

[Capone]

I'm not aware whether this happened in Japan or not. But you're right about hunter gatherers having less diseases, it's a mixture of more exercise but also diet, survival of fittest. I remember a study comparing nearsightedness in aboriginal children with western children and it turned out the aboriginal kids had far superior vision. I bet they will genetically be less prone to cardio and pulmonary disorders too.

Ain’t no Nando’s, KFC or Dominos in the jungle lol

 

[swingline747]

I'm not aware whether this happened in Japan or not. But you're right about hunter gatherers having less diseases, it's a mixture of more exercise but also diet, survival of fittest. I remember a study comparing nearsightedness in aboriginal children with western children and it turned out the aboriginal kids had far superior vision. I bet they will genetically be less prone to cardio and pulmonary disorders too.

its not that these societies have "less disease", its that their small groups have built the immunities to the few diseases they did encounter. those who didnt died. Id wager more survival of the fittest than anything to do with genetics or diet. Take one of those small groups and introduce this years flu and see how fast they get decimated because of something new theyve ever encountered.