Merck's Baldness Drug Linked to Sex Concerns After Use?

[Wuffer]

Just about everything you wrote made me facepalm so I'm not going to waste my time doing a tit-for-tat rebuttal when lives are at stake here. Just pointing out some of the stupid **** you said.

Good move. It's good you can recognize that you don't have a leg to stand on and that it's time you backed out of the conversation. I would have put a thousand dollars on the fact that your next response would have been something along the lines of "i'm not wasting my time blah blah blah" and try to play it off so that you don't look like you are running away with your tail between your legs. Classic move, well played.

I really don't even know wtf you are arguing here, or if you are arguing at all.

You are very observant, good for you! Most of my last post was dedicated pointing out how ridiculous your responses were.

Rat studies serve no purpose? DHT is involved in rat erections, but not human erections?

Please show me where I said any of this. I love how you can't even identify any weaknesses in my responses so you have to resort to putting words in my mouth.

If DHT is critical for rat erections then it's critical for human erections. Do you agree with this or not?

No; the results from animal studies, especially rat studies, are usually never applied to humans except for obvious ones such as toxicology tests and so on. Animal studies such as these are used to formulate hypotheses, but the results can not be applied to humans in a blanket sense.

I'm not going to even discuss this any more, because here is a nice big wrench to gum up your works. You probably know the drug Dutasteride, right? That fun little chemical blocks some 95% of DHT and pretty much eliminates it from circulation. Even so, erectile dysfunction is experienced by less than 5% of users, and around 1% after a year of continued use.

So you actually might be right here. DHT might be crucial for erections, but it's clear that even having less than 5% of normal DHT levels circulating is more than enough in the vast majority of cases. Certainly if people get by so well on dutasteride, finasteride is a cakewalk!

I'm sure you can find a study on humans. Even the finasteride wiki entry explains the role of DHT. "DHT is a more powerful androgen than testosterone (as it has approximately 3-10x the potency at the androgen receptor, the site of action of the androgen hormones), so 5α-reductase can be thought to amplify the androgenic effect of testosterone in the tissues in which it's found."

Actually I haven't come across any studies that conclude DHT is in any way crucial for humans to achieve erection. Please hunt one down for me, because I don't care to spend more than a couple minutes on these responses.

Who cares if DHT is 'powerful'. That doesn't mean it's necessary for erections or even important for anything else in the human body...

Are you still not convinced?

Not even close, but quite entertained at the very least.

Do you still believe Merck's "DHT is a pesky molecule" lie of the 90's?

Oh so it was just a lie in the 90's but in the 2000's its the truth? Damn pharma companies and their shady dealings.

Try to flesh out your arguments so I know what the **** you are saying and don't waste time with "them's some big words you learned there!"

I can't understand what you are trying to say with those little stars, you should try to type more accurately!

Again, my last post was just to poke fun at how ridiculous your responses were. There isn't much to argue with here, trust me. I'm pretty sure the damp sponge sitting next to my kitchen sink would be able to put up a more challenging debate than you are able to. It's way less mean too! sniff... sniff...

The AR has adjusted to low DHT levels, becoming hypersensitive to it. This is well-known molecular behavior. Your body thinks that 35% DHT is the new norm. When you get off, the return of baseline DHT can saturate the receptor, silencing the signal, which will make it unable to exert its effect. Then you will have PFS. Or, it could adjust back to normal DHT levels. That's what it boils down to, 50/50. Not "1 and 30,000"

Well it sounds like you have figured it all out then. If you already know why PFS happens, why have you not published your findings in a medical journal? You've just found the proof everyone is looking for, which directly implicates finasteride in PFS, meaning all these lawsuits immediately pay out!! Go! Run! Tell the world!

Wow, and you actually said I was the one playing the meaningless numbers game? So it's 50/50 as in I have a 50% chance of getting PFS, and a 50% chance of my DHT levels returning to normal, is that how it is?

Oh, maybe you are trying to make it seem like that, but in reality you mean 50/50 as in there are two possible outcomes! One being I go back to normal, and the other being I develop PFS. Of course anyone knows that just because there are two potential outcomes, it doesn't make it a flip-of-the-coin 50/50 chance. Only a complete idiot would even suggest that, right? You are able to make that distinction, right? Right???

The outcome of returning back to normal is by far the most likely. Let's say there is a 29,999 out of 30,000 chance that this happens. I'll give you a few reams of paper, a box of pencils and a solid weekend to try to figure out the math on the other outcome.

 

[Wuffer]

I never said you said this you ****ing idiot. I said I have no idea what the **** your point is. I was asking you if that's what you meant. That's what the question marks are for.

Hahaha.. Someone is getting frustrated! It's okay, I would be too if I were in your shoes.

Unbelievablely stupid. Just utter idiocy. I'm not trying to be mean here, but that's just stupid.

You have insulted me probably more than a dozen times already, and this is you not trying to be mean? I bet you are a huge hit with the ladies. Let me guess, 30-something year old angry virgin, am I right? Don't worry, that special moment will happen for you one of these days.

Again you're not making any sense to avoid the issue. Apparently you no longer believe DHT is a "pesky molecule" or else you wouldn't've avoided answering the question. That's good. I'm glad you don't believe it anymore.

Your perception of reality is so warped that when you see the facts right in front of you, you can't even make sense of it. It's okay, you can go back and talk to your rats, they will help you figure things out.

"In the cases the FDA studied, 80% of patients saw resolution of their side effects." I seriously hope you don't believe that anymore because god damn that was a dumb thing to say.

Actually you have me here; I did not phrase that properly and i'm glad you called me on it. I never made any indication that I was perfect and never made mistakes, but i'm man enough to admit it, unlike you who just ignores the dozens of things I called you on and insults me. I suspect you are extremely socially awkward, are not able to hold an adult conversation, have zero confidence and hold a menial job, if any. How close did I come to hitting the target?

Anyway back to the topic at hand, the report indicated there were 421 total reports of sexual dysfunction resulting from Propecia, which means the majority of these people could just be experiencing issues while on the drug, or had side effects that resolved less than 3 months after discontinuing. There are only 59 confirmed cases that lasted more than 3 months, and even those may have resolved shortly after. Even further, we don't know what those side effects might have been.

Still it indicates two things:

1. There may be a causal relationship that indicates finasteride may cause persistent side effects

2. That the incidence rate of these persistent side effects are likely extremely rare.


How many people do you figure in the USA have taken Propecia since it was released. 2 million? Divide that by the 59 cases we see there, and you have your approximate incidence rate. If you have any reason to disagree, try as hard as you can to throw together a rebuttal. It looks like even this simple task is far beyond your capabilities.

"This results in increased blood flow within the penis and both of these chemicals are positively influenced by testosterone. That is, without sufficient testosterone, there will not be enough NO and cGMP to create an erection. It turns out that DHT (dihydrotestosterone) is the principle regulator of these chemicals and DHT is manufactured in the body from testosterone"
No! Again, you're not making any sense. Your DHT levels will come back to normal. How the AR responds is what you should be concerned with. If you have been on finasteride for two years as you say, you have a hypersensitive AR, and that is a serious cause of concern. It is not a trivial issue.

Nah, i'm pretty sure I will be fine. Thanks for your genuine concern though. In fact, late last year I had to go off finasteride for about a month while I went on vacation. Not only did I not explode from all my upregulation, I didn't even feel any different at all. And I got SUPER WASTED! :woot:

but I hate when people parrot the lies that are costing lives.......you parrot their lies that have costed lives.....

So now I am costing peoples lives? Dramatic much?

You can personalize it all you want by saying "running with your tail between your legs."

I can "personalize" it? I think you mean "rationalize". It's okay, I know you are trying pretty hard.

I don't give a ****

You don't give 4 little stars? I still don't know what you mean! Try to make some sense here!

You can be mad at me all you want.

Oh yeah, i'm furious at you. Clearly, I am having a hard time controlling my anger. I apologize to everyone for making a big scene.

But you should be much more angry at Merck for lying about a very serious issue.

Merck's research department is responsible for inventing a drug that completely reversed my hair loss. It costs me less than $100 a year (to be fair, this doesn't count all the extra money I have to spend on combs, hair gel and haircuts) and I don't have a single side effect from it. If I was able to personally meet with the department that invented this drug, I would take them all out for beers and make it a point to shake each and every one of their hands and tell them how much the drug has benefited my life. That being said, I haven't ever purchased a Merck brand finasteride pill in my life, but it's still a result of their research that I have a full head of hair.

I don't think the fact that I had a good experience makes me a bad person, but clearly you do.

:jackit:

Put that away! No means no! I am not that kind of guy!

 

[Wuffer]

All trolling, no substance as usual.

Honestly, it's tough to make serious posts while i'm laughing so hard! It must be all the estradiol making me so emotional, right?

Again, won't waste time with the childish ****

Childish what? Again you keep posting those stars man, I can't figure out what you are trying to say! Clearly you are having problems operating your keyboard.. Maybe go upstairs and get your mom to help you out?

No! Wrong again moron. The FDA never said there were 421 total reports. They said they reviewed 421 reports.

Oh okay so there were tens of thousands of reports but they only chose to review 421 of them! Why would they only pick SOME of them? Maybe if they had reason to believe the reports were inaccurate or in other ways invalid they might exclude them, but then they shouldn't have been considered in the first place.

Out of those 421 reports, 59 patients had been off the drug for three months or more when the report was submitted.

Yes, that is also true! Good job!!! You're starting to get the hang of this thinking thing. If they had side effects that lasted 3 months after they quit, obviously the report couldn't have been submitted BEFORE 3 months had gone by. I don't know what your point here is, but i'll give you all the time you need to work this problem out in your head.

There is no evidence that any of the patients had any resolution of symptoms.

So? There is no evidence suggesting they didn't experience resolution either. Nobody even knows if finasteride caused the side effects in the first place. Symptoms could have been caused by any thousand other conditions or medications.

No. You don't have your approximate incidence rate. That's just stupid for reasons already explained. The FDA did not give you the information you need to come up with an incidence rate. They never intended to. They don't want you to. They merely explained their methods to expand the warning label. DO NOT TRY TO COME UP WITH AN INCIDENCE RATE BASED ON THE METHODS THE FDA USED TO EXPAND THE WARNING LABEL.

Your reason was that I was playing a "stupid numbers game" and then you came up with your embarrassing 50/50 comment. I know, math is hard...

Let's see you work through the numbers and give me some incidence rates. Let me take a wild guess, your answer will equal 100% right?

Look, you're obviously scientifically inept. You shouldn't be playing around with numbers. Listen to others' experiences of the drug llike brightside. http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/62513-Quit-Finasteride-after-2-days

Damn, you're right! Who needs numbers and science when you have a single anonymous post on a hair loss forum! That completely trumps everything we currently know about finasteride. You've figured it all out!

You're quiet in the theads where you can't play with numbers.

You aren't very good at this.

That's good. It appears you're starting to understand the dangers of messing with hormones.

But you kept saying DHT is just a pesky molecule! You mean that's a lie??? Oh god what have I done! Ok my penis just fell off.

That's good you think you'll be fine, but you never know where your body's breaking point is.

I'll let you know when that happens. Or when in after 10 years I am still fine, i'll just send you a postcard with a picture of my hair to show how awesome it still looks.

I recommend getting off immediately, if you stay on, get off at the first sign of side effects. Don't make your decision to keep taking it based on Merck's numbers. Sure as hell don't make your decision based on your numbers.

Much offense intended, but I wouldn't even trust you to shine my shoes. I usually prefer to take medical advice from people who aren't clinically retarded.

http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=49960#p49960

What in gods name was is this supposed to prove? Are you just showing off the fact that you are able to post URL's or something?

Here, I can post them too! You will find this pretty helpful.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061006033636AAoV9H8

 

[IrishFella]

Without Finasteride I only wonder how much my temple recession would have progressed, now, with re-growth and thickening, I haven't felt better, I can style my hair the way I used too, and my confidence is back, my self-esteem is through the roof, pre-finasteride I was miserable, no libido from the fact I was wallowing in self pity, gasping and almost breaking into tears, looking at my once full head of hair, receded to the point that it was noticeable, even my barber said I was thinning on one side, never felt so embarrassed or disheartened in my life.

How could it have such a dent on my self esteem and my aesthetics? I didn't feel like myself, I felt like, at the age of 24, my social life was over. What would my friends think? They used to call me Elvis Pressely because of how I styled my hair, I loved it, girls would always want to touch it, but that was off limits =), I'd try and let it grow, but I knew eventually, I'd have to get it cut.

The fear of going to my barbers was like the first time I had to go to the dentist as a kid, palms sweating, lump in my throat, stomach knotting up, it was horrible, thankfully I only got a small trim so I could somewhat hide the recession but it was still there, the anxiety, all of a sudden I thought people were looking at my hair, judging me, I was always waiting to be called out by one of my friends in social situations, to be put out on front street, and be made a mockery of, of course to them it would just be banter, but to me it would be devastating. So what did I do? I pretended that I felt ill and excused myself, and got a taxi home.

All because of my hairloss.

That night I said, this has to end, I came across a drug called finasteride, and I knew then and there, I was starting it, ASAP, I started the drug in February of this year, and man, I couldn't be happier, I look good, my hair looks good and most of all, I feel good on the inside.

I thought I'd share that so people that have had side effects wonder why people like me still take it. If I can hold off those feelings I was going through pre-finasteride, for even a few years, I'll be a very very happy man.

Finasteride saved me, mentally, yes, hairloss can really effect people, just look at the "impact of hairloss section" on this forum.

Without it, God only knows what state I'd be in now.

 

[Wuffer]

Irish, I could have written that myself. Bang on! It's rough as hell to deal with, especially when it hits you so suddenly. For me, it almost ended a relationship, I wasn't able to have sex, I was depressed.. Going to the barber was a huge source of anxiety, and I dreaded it for weeks.

I had been denying it for a while, but also reached a revelation like you did. I had been reading all about the horrors of finasteride, and didn't even consider it as a possible treatment. I finally took a mirror and took a good look at how bad my hair was getting, I almost started to cry. I decided there and then I was going to try finasteride.

After taking my first pill, I immediately felt an overwhelming sense of relief. Since that day, I haven't had a single worry about my hair loss, because I knew I was taking the best treatment for it. Now I've got the same hair as I did when I was in my early 20's. I went to the barber last week and she said "wow, you have nice thick hair for a guy in his 30's! You should consider yourself lucky!". I almost hugged my stylist when she told me that.

People always say "it's just a cosmetic condition, get over it, it's not worth the risk" blah blah blah. Well if that's how YOU feel about it, the more power to you. But the reality is that most people, especially younger guys, go through hell dealing with it, and it could easily impact a person throughout their life.

 

[akp22191]

I agree with you bro. One reason why I think most of the side effects are in our head is myself being used as an example. I bought a 30 pill propecia from CVS 1mg prescribed from my Derm. I read about the side effects before buying it, but was confident it wouldn't happen to me. As soon as I bought it, I got into the car popped a pill with my water bottle that I had in the car & set off to drop of some school files to my college which is a 1 hour drive. In that one hour ride to my college & another one hour ride back home (2 hours). I kept trying to test myself out mentally if I could think of some hot women that I personally know, and get a boner from think about them. Basically I started worrying about the side effects. Got home ate food. And then again went off to my room to test out my dick; I looked at some p**rn & tried masturbating, but I was more focused on if the side effects such as low libido was occuring or not. I shot out some watery semen & freaked out. Now I had just taken this pill about 3 hours ago, so idk if the pill itself could have cause the low libido and watery semen this fast. That's why I have decided to stick to my original plan: ride it out for 30 days & try my best to stay away from posts where people complain about negative side effects. Instead I've been looking at forums where people talk about positive effects from the pill. And surprisingly my libido has increased back to normal, getting morning wood. Semen is still watery, but again I've still been bugging out about the watery semen part going every where on the internet if anybody noticed it. Basically if anybody is taking Propecia for the first time; say a 30 day pill to see how it works, then I have a simple advice. Stop reading forum posts about negative side effects. This is why I think people on Propecia say they notice sexual side effects more then ppl on Proscar. Both have the same active ingredient, yet Propecia gets blamed the most. The reason being? Cause people everywhere in the world link it more to sexual side effects then actual stabalization/regrowth of your hair whether it's forums, internet, news, books or what ever. These people **** every young men's brain about the Pill being a bad medicine that only causes sexual disfunction. That's why I'm sticking with the 1 month pill & I'll see what happens from there. But from now on I'm just going to try to read positive feedbacks on this medicine.