Microneedling Faqs: Procedures, Studies And Such

[Necr0sis]

DERMINATOR Vs DR.PEN ULTIMA A6
- MINI REVIEW -
Havning seen plenty of discussion & Qs about them and owning both, thought to share my experience & hopefully help with your choice.
View attachment 114561


FREQUENCY
Measured the needling frequencies - difference is dramatic:
ULTIMA (A6) = 5 SPEEDS = 75 - 80 - 90 - 95 - 100 Hz
Packed so close together (MAX Vs MIN ratio 1.4) that 2 speeds would be enough.
View attachment 114567

DERMINATOR-2 (D2) = 3 SPEEDS = 2.5 - 5 - 30 Hz
So far apart (MAX Vs MIN ratio 12 !!) that 5 speeds would be better.
View attachment 114570 View attachment 114569 View attachment 114568


MECHANICS
Here lies the fundamental difference between the two:

D2 = Pulsing Device:
needles pulsate - like our hearts
View attachment 114571


A6 = Vibrational Device:
needles oscillate like a mass on a spring;
View attachment 114572
As visible in the charts, the A6 needle stays in the skin longer, increasing
- pain &
- risk of transversal Tearing;



CARTRIDGES
The Bayonet is identical and both cartridges fit both devices:
View attachment 114554

HOWEVER, D2's cartridge needles are approx 1mm deeper than A6's (!)
View attachment 114554

Therefore:
A6 + D2-Needles = appr. 1mm MORE DEPTH (i.e. for 1.5mm you set 0.5mm);
D2 + A6-Needles = appr. 1mm LESS DEPTH (i.e. for 1.5mm you set 2.5mm);


ADVANTAGES
D2
- PAIN = Less (due to lower speeds);
- NO STUCK = Needles don't get stuck while gliding;
- FREQ. RANGE = Wider (D2=12:1 Vs A6=1.4:1);
- TEARING = Lower;

A6
- PRICE = Cheaper (Unit & Cartridges);
- DELIVERY = Faster;
- DEPTH SETTING = Finer (A6=continuous Vs D2=0.25mm steps);
- WIRELESS (D2 = Wired);


VERDICT
Prefer D2 cause the briefer needle penetration & lower speeds make it so much less painful that it's a game changer for me: @hairline w/ A6 had tears every time, whereas w/ D2 enjoying & often find myself looking where else could I Derminate...

On the other side, higher A6 speeds mean shorter sessions for the same hole-count and if you're tough guy, A6 might fit your bill!

Whatever your choice... follow your destiny, embrace your long-term pain & report your Results!

Really appreciate the post since I just got my D2 yesterday. Could you please provide a guide on how to use it for the scalp ?

 

[kungfukenny]

Can you just use cheap general cartridges for the dr pen? Or do you have to buy a specific cartridge?

 

[LowHairLine]

Really appreciate the post since I just got my D2 yesterday. Could you please provide a guide on how to use it for the scalp ?

Welcome to the needling world!

@USAGE GUIDE
The 1st post of this thread is an excellent tutorial for your very question. I do not consider myself an expert on the matter by any means - but if you do have any On-Topic specific queries not covered there that I am able to assist you with, I will be happy to

@REGIMEN
I am using a regimen similar to the best responders - if interested, you can review "THE WAY FORWARD" section in this post

Best of Luck - and let us know how it goes!

 

[LowHairLine]

Can you just use cheap general cartridges for the dr pen? Or do you have to buy a specific cartridge?

@CARTRIDGE
It's hard to say cause retailers typically post too limited info to rule-out a cartridge - device incompatibility:
as outlined in my post above, even an identical Bayonet does not guarantee compatibility when needle depth can be different.

That being said, with the A6 cartridges going for around $2 per unit in a 25 pcs pack, I am not sure if further price reduction would make much sense since you might be getting an iffy product:
you are still putting those needles into your scalp after all and taking unnecessary risks does not look like the best idea...

If additional savings are an absolute priority, I would rather consider thoroughly sanitizing & re-using the same cartridges:
it's been successfully done by many on this forum w/o reported problems.

Good luck - & report your progress!

 

[coco_304]

What is cartridges??
I have to buy it every x time ?

 

[LowHairLine]

What is cartridges??
I have to buy it every x time ?

@ CARTRIDGE
Cartridges are the "cylinders with Needles" depicted in the photos in my post above

As outlined in the 1st post of this thread, it is recommended to use a new one every time - but by sanitizing them properly, you can reuse them multiple times as well. It's up to you to find the optimal price / performance.

 

[Necr0sis]

I appreciate your contributions @LowHairLine


I just got my derminator 2 and used it for the first time yesterday. I want to make sure that this redness is normal the morning after (I used it around 1 PM yesterday). https://imgur.com/a/PwdsNmG


It doesn’t itch, burn, or hurt. I normally get this from a manual derma roller too.


Any input would be appreciated.

 

[LowHairLine]

...I want to make sure that this redness is normal the morning after...

@ REDNESS
Unfrotunately the photo is too low quality to be certain - but do I see correctly that you have some cartridge-size scabs / blood spots in your widow's peak and right Temple area?


If that's the case, then it's NOT normal - next day I at most have some (patchy) redness left:
either you have been Derminating in the same spot w/o moving the device for an extended period of time,
or you have had a too-deep setting and have pressed hard in those areas only.

What setup were you using:
- NEEDLE COUNT ?
- DEPTH ?
- SPEED ?

 

[coco_304]

DERMINATOR Vs DR.PEN ULTIMA A6
- MINI REVIEW -
Having seen plenty of discussion & Qs about them and owning both, thought to share my experience & hopefully help with your queries.
View attachment 114561


SPEED / FREQ.
I have measured the needling frequencies - & differences are unexpectedly large:
ULTIMA (A6) = 5 SPEEDS = 75 - 80 - 90 - 95 - 100 Hz
Speeds packed so close together (MAX Vs MIN ratio 1.4) that 2 speeds would have been enough.
View attachment 114567

DERMINATOR-2 (D2) = 3 SPEEDS = 2.5 - 5 - 30 Hz
All D2 speeds are much lower than A6 - & so far apart from each-other (MAX Vs MIN ratio 12 !!) that this time 5 speeds would have been better
View attachment 114570 View attachment 114569 View attachment 114568


MECHANICS
Here lies the fundamental difference between the two:

D2 = Pulsating Device:
needles pulsate (a bit like our hearts )
View attachment 114571

A6 = Oscillating Device:
needles oscillate (much like a mass on a spring);
View attachment 114572
As visible in the charts above, at the same needling speed / frequency the A6 needle stays in the skin longer, increasing pain & risk of transversal Tearing;


CARTRIDGES
The Bayonet is identical and both cartridges fit both devices:
View attachment 114554

HOWEVER, D2's cartridge needles (right) are approx 1mm deeper than A6's (left)
View attachment 114560

Therefore:
A6 + D2-Needles = appr. 1mm DEEPER than set on device
(i.e. for 1.5mm you need to set it to 0.5mm);
D2 + A6-Needles = appr. 1mm SHALLOWER than set on device
(i.e. for 1.5mm you need to set it to 2.5mm);


ADVANTAGES
D2
- PAIN = Less (due to lower speeds);
- FLUIDITY = Better (needles don't get stuck while gliding);
- SPEED. RANGE = Wider (D2=12:1 Vs A6=1.4:1);
- TEARING = Lower Risk (briefer needle penetration time);

A6
- PRICE = Cheaper (Unit & Cartridges);
- DELIVERY = Faster;
- DEPTH SETTING = Finer (A6=continuous Vs D2=0.25mm steps);
- WIRELESS (D2 = Wired);
- SPEED = Higher (less needling time for same wounding result);


VERDICT
Prefer D2 cause the briefer needle penetration & lower speeds make it so much less painful that it's a game changer for me: @ the hairline had tears every time w/ A6, whereas w/ D2 enjoying & often find myself looking where else to Derminate...

On the other hand, more great responders use a Pen than a D2 - & A6's higher speeds mean shorter sessions for the same hole-count. Therefore - if you're a tough guy, A6 might well fit your bill! But most importantly, whatever your choice... stick with your destiny, embrace the pain & report your Results!

cant open the website selling this product.
"page not found"

 

[Necr0sis]

@ REDNESS
Unfrotunately the photo is too low quality to be certain - but do I see correctly that you have some cartridge-size scabs / blood spots in your widow's peak and right Temple area?
View attachment 114710

If that's the case, then it's NOT normal - next day I at most have some (patchy) redness left:
either you have been Derminating in the same spot w/o moving the device for an extended period of time,
or you have had a too-deep setting and have pressed hard in those areas only.

What setup were you using:
- NEEDLE COUNT ?
- DEPTH ?
- SPEED ?

D2, 12 needles. 1.5 mm depth, speed fast.
Here's other photos after a shower: https://imgur.com/p3YxszG https://imgur.com/xgx0ELp

 

[LowHairLine]

D2, 12 needles. 1.5 mm depth, speed fast...

@ REDNESS
The last 2 photos are lower contrast and it does look better, but the redness still seems concentrated in a few spots & almost non-existent elsewhere. Your aim should be to get as even results as possible.

SPEED
I recommend you the MEDIUM speed on the visible areas (hairline!) cause:
- it is much easier to Derminate evenly than on HIGH &
- it hurts less

MOVEMENT
I would also recommend doing very few passes only in one area and quickly move to another area:
this gives your skin the time to react (redden, bleed), allowing you to better assess where more wounding is needed to obtain even wounding throughout. You can then rotate through all your areas multiple times till the desired wounding is obtained.

INTENSITY
My primary target is NOT a certain DEPTH or DURATION, but the WOUNDING RESULT:
I go for fairly sparse SMALL BLOOD SPOTS but NO BLOOD RUNNING - & use a depth and wounding duration that gives me this result.

DEPTH
I find that at equally set depths, I bleed much more on HIGH speed than on MEDIUM - which is why I suspect the D2 real needling depth increases with speed.

Therefore, your "1.5mm @ FAST" is too hardcore on my HAIRLINE for the above target - if properly pressing D2 to achieve contact with your skin, as should be done to get consistent depth.

SUMMARY
Putting this all together, for me it is:
HAIRLINE = MEDIUM speed @ 1 - 1.5mm;
ELSEWHERE = HIGH Speed @ 1.5 - 2 mm;

 

[coco_304]

DERMINATOR Vs DR.PEN ULTIMA A6
- MINI REVIEW -
Having seen plenty of discussion & Qs about them and owning both, thought to share my experience & hopefully help with your queries.
View attachment 114561


SPEED / FREQ.
I have measured the needling frequencies - & differences are unexpectedly large:
ULTIMA (A6) = 5 SPEEDS = 75 - 80 - 90 - 95 - 100 Hz
Speeds packed so close together (MAX Vs MIN ratio 1.4) that 2 speeds would have been enough.
View attachment 114567

DERMINATOR-2 (D2) = 3 SPEEDS = 2.5 - 5 - 30 Hz
All D2 speeds are much lower than A6 - & so far apart from each-other (MAX Vs MIN ratio 12 !!) that this time 5 speeds would have been better

EDIT: Replaced the Lo-Speed measurement with the correct one;
View attachment 114719 View attachment 114569 View attachment 114568


MECHANICS
Here lies the fundamental difference between the two:

D2 = Pulsating Device:
needles pulsate (a bit like our hearts )
View attachment 114571

A6 = Oscillating Device:
needles oscillate (much like a mass on a spring);
View attachment 114572
As visible in the charts above, at the same needling speed / frequency the A6 needle stays in the skin longer, increasing pain & risk of transversal Tearing;

EDIT: the higher tearing risk was only theoretically evaluated due to the A6 longer penetration times, which in combination with fast lateral movement could elongate the holes - BUT I did NOT analyze my wounds to assess this and did NOT notice any consequences after healing;


CARTRIDGES
The Bayonet is identical and both cartridges fit both devices:
View attachment 114554

HOWEVER, D2's cartridge needles (right) are approx 1mm deeper than A6's (left)
View attachment 114560

Therefore:
A6 + D2-Needles = appr. 1mm DEEPER than set on device
(i.e. for 1.5mm you need to set it to 0.5mm);
D2 + A6-Needles = appr. 1mm SHALLOWER than set on device
(i.e. for 1.5mm you need to set it to 2.5mm);


ADVANTAGES
D2
- PAIN = Less (due to lower speeds);
- FLUIDITY = Better (needles don't get stuck while gliding);
- SPEED. RANGE = Wider (D2=12:1 Vs A6=1.4:1);
- TEARING = Lower Risk (briefer needle penetration time);

A6
- PRICE = Cheaper (Unit & Cartridges);
- DELIVERY = Faster;
- DEPTH SETTING = Finer (A6=continuous Vs D2=0.25mm steps);
- WIRELESS (D2 = Wired);
- SPEED = Higher (less needling time for same wounding result);


VERDICT
Prefer D2 cause the briefer needle penetration & lower speeds make it so much less painful that it's a game changer for me: @ the hairline had tears every time w/ A6, whereas w/ D2 enjoying & often find myself looking where else to Derminate...

On the other hand, more great responders use a Pen than a D2 - & A6's higher speeds mean shorter sessions for the same hole-count. Therefore - if you're a tough guy, A6 might well fit your bill! But most importantly, whatever your choice... stick with your destiny, embrace the pain & report your Results!

Cant open site selling this.
"Page not found"

 

[LowHairLine]

Cant open site selling this.
"Page not found"

Re: D2 WEBSITE
If you are referring to the Derminator-2, then this is it's website:
https://derminator.com/

And this is their WebShop:
https://owndoc.shop/Dermaneedling/Derminator digital needling device/Derminator 2/

Direct links to varois plug types are on the 1st post of this thread -
Note though that for some reason, they only ship the D2 to the following countries ATM:

Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bermuda, Brazil, Canada, Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, Faroe Islands, Finland, France, French Polynesia, Germany, Gibraltar, Hungary, Hong Kong, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Jersey, Korea, Republic of, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Martinique, Monaco, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norfolk Island, Norway, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, United States, Serbia.

If you are from elsewhere, I'm afraid you are out of luck & will get an error message...

 

[Linny]

Tried dermarolling today, 1.5mm, hurt a lot! Does the Derminator hurt less?

 

[LowHairLine]

Tried dermarolling today, 1.5mm, hurt a lot! Does the Derminator hurt less?

Re: NEEDLING PAIN
The short answer is YES -
as per my mini-review above, for me the pain dropped DRASTICALLY:
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...-studies-and-such.119653/page-13#post-1777669

What device are you using currently?

 

[Linny]

A roller with 192 needles. Doubt I was even able to penetrate the skin properly. I think I am going to go for a D2

 

[Necr0sis]

@ REDNESS
The last 2 photos are lower contrast and it does look better, but the redness still seems concentrated in a few spots & almost non-existent elsewhere. Your aim should be to get as even results as possible.

SPEED
I recommend you the MEDIUM speed on the visible areas (hairline!) cause:
- it is much easier to Derminate evenly than on HIGH &
- it hurts less

MOVEMENT
I would also recommend doing very few passes only in one area and quickly move to another area:
this gives your skin the time to react (redden, bleed), allowing you to better assess where more wounding is needed to obtain even wounding throughout. You can then rotate through all your areas multiple times till the desired wounding is obtained.

INTENSITY
My primary target is NOT a certain DEPTH or DURATION, but the WOUNDING RESULT:
I go for fairly sparse SMALL BLOOD SPOTS but NO BLOOD RUNNING - & use a depth and wounding duration that gives me this result.

DEPTH
I find that at equally set depths, I bleed much more on HIGH speed than on MEDIUM - which is why I suspect the D2 real needling depth increases with speed.

Therefore, your "1.5mm @ FAST" is too hardcore on my HAIRLINE for the above target - if properly pressing D2 to achieve contact with your skin, as should be done to get consistent depth.

SUMMARY
Putting this all together, for me it is:
HAIRLINE = MEDIUM speed @ 1 - 1.5mm;
ELSEWHERE = HIGH Speed @ 1.5 - 2 mm;

Hey my man, I really appreciate you taking the time out to answer our questions and post the guides.

I feel that a video on how to use the D2 would be a very valuable asset to all of us and it would be sincerely appreciated.

 

[LowHairLine]

...a video on how to use the D2 would be a very valuable...

Re: NEEDLING VIDEO
There's the very useful video by @74775446
(see the 1st post of this thread):

While it's for a Pen / NOT for D2 specifically, the basic principles are the same:
all I do in addition is apply the recommendations from my previous post.

Good Luck!

 

[infinitepain]

So looks like the derminator 2 is the best device technology wise? im still concerned about the staff. If they decided to ban you from buying on their site, is there any other place you could obtain replacements? the way I understand it is that their cartridges are only sold on their site, so it's insanity to risk it.

 

[Necr0sis]

Is once per week like a manual roller recommended for the D2 as well?