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Microneedling + massages along some supplements, such as MSM and ecklonia cava.
Microneedling Faqs: Procedures, Studies And Such
- Thread starter Bill_Russo
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We thought so too! And then we found the Chinese study.
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That does match my case a bit, I've defiantly gone down at least a Norwood and a half this year. I'll contact him Haiiry for more details thanks dude really appreciate it.
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Anytime. Best of luck, buddy.
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Hey there, people!
Since the other thread is becoming very long and we repeat ourselves a lot, I thought about opening this thread with what I consider the FAQs, procedures, studies, etc., so that we can point newcomers to this thread.
Comment with something you think is important that's not on the list. Since I'm pretty active, I'll answer requests rather fast.
WHAT YOU NEED
1.- A cheap dermaroller or a manual stamp might suffice. However, we suggest you get an electric dermapen, since it wounds more effectively and most users report it's less painful than a roller.
Dermaroller vs Dermapen:
Most popular pens:
If you think you can spend $200, the Derminator 2 is the best pen out there. It appears that you can get a refund if you send them pictures showing clear results:
EUROPEAN PLUG:
https://owndoc.shop/Dermaneedling/Derminator digital needling device/Derminator 2/DERMINATOR 2 digi-needler (European plug)
US PLUG:
https://owndoc.shop/Dermaneedling/Derminator digital needling device/Derminator 2/DERMINATOR 2 digi-needler (US plug)/
UK PLUG:
https://owndoc.shop/Dermaneedling/Derminator digital needling device/Derminator 2/DERMINATOR 2 digi-needler (UK plug)/
AUSTRALIAN PLUG:
https://owndoc.shop/Dermaneedling/Derminator digital needling device/Derminator 2/DERMINATOR 2 digi-needler (Australian plug)/
If your budget is tighter, you can just get a Dr. Pen off of Amazon or this pen right here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Microneedl...=UTF8&qid=1546527361&sr=8-3&keywords=Dermapen
Titanium needles are advised.
If you settle for a dermaroller, be careful:
2.- A disinfectant such as 70% alcohol, to sanitize the roller/stamp or cartridges (using the same cartridge twice with proper hygiene won't cause problems, but it is recommended to change them after one use to be extra safe) and Betadine to sanitize your scalp (users report this is not necessary and that rinsing your head profusely is enough if you use a pen and change cartridges).
3.- Numbing cream such as 4% lidocaine (5% is said to have a higher risk of causing an anaphylactic shock) will make things easier for you.
4.- Microneedling by itself has proved to give results. However, to get the best out of it, combining it with 5% Minoxidil is the way to go.
PROCEDURE
1.- Wash your scalp with shampoo.
2.- If you're using it, apply numbing cream abot half an hour before needling, then wash it off thoroughly before you begin needling.
3.- Needle each area doing 2 horizontal passes, 2 vertical passes and 2 diagonal passes, for a total of 6 passes. Redness and small blood spots are the goal here. If you don't see blood at first this does not mean you didn't wound properly, as blood can appear the more sessions you do.
A visual example from @74775446:
4.- Make sure you sanitize your roller/stamp or cartridge, if you're reusing it.
STUDIES
There are several studies about dermarolling, but the most popular ones are the Indian study carried out in 2013 and the Chinese study carried out in 2017:
Indian study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3746236/
Key points:
- Microneedling with a 1.5 mm dermaroller once a week.
- If you're using it; apply 1 ml 5% Minoxidil twice a day.
Chinese study: https://www.docdroid.net/Q4cnC2V/101080-at-1476417220171376094.pdf
Key points:
- Microneedling with a 1.5-2.5 mm needle using an electric pen twice a month.
- If you're using it; apply Minoxidil right after needling.
Plenty of people have seen results with different frequencies and lengths, but if you want to follow something with clinical evidence, here it is. Also, keep in mind that the goal here is to wound, and that is achieved with a >1.5 mm depth.
You can also do this twice monthly with 1.5 mm, or even once a month with 2.5 mm. There are many variables and there isn't a "best length and frequency", so choose what you think is best for you and your hair.
Oh, and you wanna have this picture in mind:
View attachment 108663
The longer you wait between session, the better your scalp will recover. You can actually do, say, 2 mm once every 2 weeks and then switch to once a month as soon as you're happy with your results. This frequency serves as maintenance.
Do not go into the sun for 7 days after a session. Wear a hat during that time. You can stop rolling during the summer if you wish to do so.
Results appear to stay for some months after you stop rolling.
Other studies:
Microneedling in non-responders to Finasteride or Minoxidil: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4458936/
Minoxidil vs Microneedling + Minoxidil: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3746236/
Microneedling vs Minoxidil vs Microneedling + Minoxidil: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29028377
BENEFITS
Apart from the potential regrowth or thickening of your hair, needling has proved to make the scalp feel alive, healthy and more sensitive to the touch. It also reduces sebum considerably.
HOW MANY NEEDLES DO PEOPLE USE?
Generally speaking, people go for dermarollers with 192 needles, dermastamps with 80-140 needles and 12 needle cartridges for the pens.
DID ANYONE GET GOOD RESULTS WITHOUT USING MINOXIDIL OR FINASTERIDE?
Why yes. In this forum: 2young2retire restored 2 Norwoods with extreme wounding. Look up "2young2retire mastering the potential cure" to see his progress.
MyThinningConfidence made excellent progress without them. Here's his story: https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...or-finasteride-mechanical-stimulation.116396/
Kitedude is another example (needling + scalp exercises for 5 years; used Minoxidil for 6 months in the beginning but then dropped it).
Another user from the StopAga days reported results without using Minoxidil or Finasteride (needling for 3 years using 2 mm needles + detumescence therapy and supplements like MSM and ecklonia cava)
You want to combine needling with Minoxidil to get the best results. Just know that, if you can't tolerate it, you have the option of needling without it; it's just not as effective (proved to be better than Minoxidil alone) and results can take longer to show.
HOW LONG UNTIL I SEE RESULTS?
This varies from person to person.
If you want to properly assess how good a responder you are, it is recommended that you give it a 12 month trial. However, if you think nothing's happening after, say; 6 months, no one's stopping you from dropping it. But keep in mind: the only user who stuck with it for over a year in the baldtruthtaIk "community" trial was PrettyFly83... And he didn't see progress (and what a nice *** progress it was... look up "prettyfly83 baldtruthtaIk" to see his results) until after 1.5 years. Up to you.
WHAT HAPPENS IF I DON'T RESPOND TO MINOXIDIL?
The original poster from Tressless, AKA @74775446, didn't respond to Minoxidil prior to starting microneedling and... Well. The rest is a success story. It's not gonna be 100% the same for everyone, but it's worth a shot.
ARE THERE ANY SUBSTITUTES TO MINOXIDIL?
I'm afraid that we don't have much of a choice. RU is the closest. Rosemary oil proved to be as effective as 2% Minoxidil, but nobody uses 2% Minoxidil.
Sandalore is looking good, but it's too early to tell. Guess we'll find out with time!
IS IT SAFE TO NEEDLE OVER BIRTHMARKS OR SEBORRHEIC DERMATITIS?
Yes, it is. Several dermarolling and RealSelf threads report that needling has proved to be effective at treating birthmarks and seborrheic dermatitis. However, I urge everyone concerned with this to talk to a dermatologist.
HOW SAFE IS MICRONEEDLING? HOW PAINFUL IS IT? WHAT ARE ITS SIDE EFFECTS?
Unless swimming in sh*t is a hobby of yours, you'll be fine as long as you use basic hygiene. As an OCD person, I'll be sanitizing the sh*t out of everything.
Pain varies from person to person. Some people say 2 mm is a no go for them and they stay at 1.5-1.75, unless they use numbing cream. Others find 2 mm almost relaxing. I'm part of the last group.
As for side effects; the most common ones are headaches and peeling off the skin for a couple of days.
Some people will experience shedding. Others will experience the cease of their shedding. Shedding, for the most part, lasts for a month before seeing some improvement. But obviously this may not be the case for everyone.
You might get a feeling of anxiety in your throat because of all the blood rushing to your head, too. All of these subside after some time.
Bear in mind: although needling is safe, it increases the absorption of the topicals you're using; thus enhancing their potential side effects.
Again, if you think I forgot about something, feel free to point it out. I will edit this and add it here. I'll be updating it whenever I think there's something worth adding, too.
Peace and good luck!
Well done Bill! All the info in one place, outstanding job
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Thank you very much, man!
Regarding the frequency, it's possible that a monthly 1.5mm dermarolling can have benefits either maintenance or some regrowth.
People should be cautious with 2.5mm, especially beginners...
Also both cases in this study from 2016 (with and without minoxidil) went through several monthly 1.5mm treatments and got results.
It may be especially relevant for people who can't commit to a weekly or once every two weeks treatment.
http://www.surgicalcosmetic.org.br/...ica-de-microinfusao-de-medicamentos-pela-pele
People should be cautious with 2.5mm, especially beginners...
Also both cases in this study from 2016 (with and without minoxidil) went through several monthly 1.5mm treatments and got results.
It may be especially relevant for people who can't commit to a weekly or once every two weeks treatment.
http://www.surgicalcosmetic.org.br/...ica-de-microinfusao-de-medicamentos-pela-pele
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I've heard some people saying needles over 1.5mm have the potential to damage the follicle, but I've heard hair follicles are much deeper in the scalp than 2.5 mm especially terminal ones. So I don't see why it would be too risky tot he follicle itself but I'm not expert.
I heard that too. I thought it interfered with collagen healing or whatever derma rolling was supposed to do. So does it make the minoxidil application more effective? Would it matter much if i skipped a minoxidil application for 12 hours? I ordered the Derminator 2. Thanks for all your help. this was the best post about microneedling I found.
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i hope there is some doctor on this thread i was wondering if i could use one of those ultra thin insuline needles instead of the dermapen, its too expensive and i want to see if it really works for me before investing in it.
Obviously, the needles will be single use only.
Obviously, the needles will be single use only.
You should read over the Chinese study. They do some testing with microneedling only. They found it to be marginally less effective than using min alone.
Have you thought of using a stamp or a roller instead, they are a lot cheaper then a pen.
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I'd just go with a cheap derma roller at first.
Great thread man! Well done, awesome work! What’s your thoughts on stemox and wounding?
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I know, man. I was trying to say that it's not necessary to emulate the frequencies of the Indian and Chinese study to see results. But I should add that to the list of studies! I remember it was linked back in the needling thread.
Follicles are about 8 mm deep into the scalp, so you won't damage them by needling with 2 or even 3 mm. Also, the new Follica device is being designed to go as deep as 5 mm. Ouchie.
If 2 mm can damage the follicles, then is Follica trying to kill them? Haha.
We don't know if this really makes a difference yet and, while I think it's bes to stick to the studies, I don't think it would make that bi of a difference.
Glad I can help and good luck!
No stupid question. People have seen results by needling without Finasteride or Minoxidil. I'm doing it without any of them. That said, the optimal way to go about it right now is to use Minoxidil along with microneedling, but I'm guessing you can't tolerate it. If you have no problems with Finasteride, then use both.
A manual stamp or a roller are very cheap. Just make sure they have titanium needles and that the roller has real needles. I'd recommend that.
Thanks! Sorry to say that I haven't heard much about it, so I can't say how effective it can be.
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I'm worried about the sanitation, can't clean it properly.
Needles come in closed box and are properly sterilized.
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I understand. I worry about sanitation, too (OCD).
That said, infections are very, very, very rare.
Maybe try asking here: https://www.realself.com
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I’m not doubting what you say regarding follica wounding 5mm, but where do you find all this detail?
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Hey Peggy.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20180280675.pdf
I'm not sure about the exact page in the document, so I cropped a screenshot of it. Still; it's on page 9 if you scroll past all the pictures showing the device: