Minoxidil recommendations

[Felk]

I know what minoxidil does, i just think the word "offset" does not give the correct description.

Minoxidil makes your hair mass 30% more than what it would be without minoxidil.

You can't make sweeping statements like that, everyone responds differently. How about "according to some studies (then cite the studies) minoxidil makes your hair mass on average 30% more than what it would be without minoxidil."

 

[CCS]

oh alright. my post was getting a bit long, but that is right.

 

[Bryan]

"Beaner" stated it pretty well, but he didn't emphasize one important point which I consider to be crucial to the idea of the "offset of growth". I don't understand why this simple concept seems to be so difficult to understand! :-x

The simple idea is that using topical minoxidil gives you a little more hair than you would otherwise have without it, whether you're balding or not. Imagine two identical twin brothers, Tom and Joe, who are balding. They have identical genes, and they are balding at exactly the same rate. Let's say that every year, both brothers lose exactly 30 hairs per year in that proverbial "1-inch circle" in their balding vertex. But one day, Tom decides to start using topical minoxidil, and finds that it gives him an extra 100 hairs in that test-spot. So here's a table of Tom's and Joe's haircounts over several years, starting a year afterwards (Joe is too lazy to use minoxidil):

HAIRCOUNTS OVER 8 YEARS
........ year 1 .... year 2 .... year 3 .... year 4 .... year 5 .... year 6 .... year 7 .... year 8
Tom ... 800 ....... 770 ......... 740 ........ 710 ....... 680 ......... 650 ....... 620 ........ 590
Joe .... 700 ....... 670 ......... 640 ........ 610 ....... 580 ......... 550 ....... 520 ........ 490

See what I mean? Both guys continue to go bald, but Tom has an extra "offset of growth" (about 100 hairs, in this case) because of the minoxidil that he uses.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

ok, i was wrong then. i thought they both crossed at zero, balding at the same time.

 

[Bryan]

So i prefer to call minoxidil a baseline multiplier, that multiplies by 1.3, and reaches 0 when 0x1.3 = 0. I don't see why one would use the word "offset".

Minoxidil haircounts appear to decline at about the same rate as non-minoxidil haircounts (where "rate" is defined as hairs lost per unit of time), so I think it's perfectly reasonable to use the word "offset". It's the same word that Vera Price used.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

You guys might enjoy reading the paragraph in the Discussion section of that study in which Dr. Price uses that term (added emphasis is my own):

"Mean percentage changes in interval weights from baseline are shown in Fig 1. The placebo and untreated groups appear to behave similarly, showing a steady decrease in hair weight from baseline over the 120 weeks. This decrease can be taken as the 'normal' hair loss for this group of subjects with androgenetic alopecia and amounts to about a 6% decrease in weight per year. The 2% and 5% minoxidil groups appear to decrease with nearly the same average downward slope, once the peak rate of growth has been passed. The treatments appear to induce a consistent increased growth offset (above placebo or untreated groups) of roughly 25% for the 2% minoxidil treatment and 35% for the 5% minoxidil treatment, an average increase of about 30%, maintained during the 96 weeks of treatment. These growth offsets represent a long-term retardation of hair loss process by both 5% and 2% topical minoxidil treatments."

Bryan

 

[I_Hate_DHT]

So Bryan, If I understand correctly, you are saying that minoxidil only grows hair in the first 48 weeks? and then we can only expect to mantain what we won?

I have read this on the Rogaine prospect, that if we experience regrow, it will only happen in the first 48 weeks. After that we will only mantain it, if we continue applying the product.

 

[Bryan]

So Bryan, If I understand correctly, you are saying that minoxidil only grows hair in the first 48 weeks? and then we can only expect to mantain what we won?

I'm going to assume that you're just pulling my leg!

Bryan

 

[CCS]

More than double the dose, and less than 50% more growth. 30% of 500 hairs is 150 hairs. Isn't that more than what propecia grows? I guess the extra 50 hairs are worth using the 5%. I'll just use it on the thinnest areas twice a day, and use a 50% diluted bottle once a day everywhere else once a day.


Bryan, you said that minoxidil is absorbed best with 90% alcohol. Does PPG count as alcohol in that regard?


Does anyone know if perfumer's alcohol is denatured with methanol, and how much it costs?

 

[I_Hate_DHT]

Bryan, you said that minoxidil is absorbed best with 90% alcohol. Does PPG count as alcohol in that regard?

Rogaine has 30% alcohol. I can tell you that if you mix it up with more alcohol, the effect will not be the same, since the intention of having less alcohol than other minoxidil's, is to make it dry slower and thus increasing the effect of minoxidil. But I guess you must already know this, since you study chemistry. :wink:

Greetings.

 

[CCS]

he said that higher alcohol percentages increased absorption even though evaporization is faster. he did not say if PPG counts as an alcohol, though minoxidil has been refered to as a hydroalcohol vehicle, even though it also has PPG in it.

I suspect that even though alcohol gives more absorption, PPG slowing that absorption is better for hair because without it, the minoxidil enters faster than the local blood vessels can absorb it, and it is swept down the blood stream to the system. I just want to know what the absorption rate with 990% alcohol is compared to with PPG, and if PPG is considered an alcohol with regards to this test (it is a 3 carbon di-alcohol, and glycerol is a 3 carbon tri-alcohol). If i could see the study, I could figure out the context myself, but Bryan still won't give me his website home page, and the links to individual parts don't have navigation links to the rest of the site.

 

[Felk]

He doesn't have a homepage, you see. Just pages of studies and things which he gives to people in links.

 

[Bryan]

More than double the dose, and less than 50% more growth.

Indeed. I took a lot of flack on alt.baldspot a few years ago when I would post that there's not THAT much difference between 2% and 5% Rogaine even when applied at the same dose, and that you could make up the difference anyway simply by using a larger dose of the 2% (that was before the studies had come that actually tested the two concentrations head-to-head). It's amazing to me how deeply mired most people are in the minoxidil "Numbers Game". I remember people saying things in the early days like "2% minoxidil is completely worthless. Use 5%, or don't use any minoxidil at all".

30% of 500 hairs is 150 hairs. Isn't that more than what propecia grows?

.

Hee-hee! Yes, in the early days I made a career out of pointing out that Rogaine studies generally report higher haircount numbers than Propecia and even dutasteride studies.

Bryan, you said that minoxidil is absorbed best with 90% alcohol. Does PPG count as alcohol in that regard?

I was referring to a pair of in vitro studies a few years ago that tested the penetration of minoxidil into mouse skin from vehicles that used various combinations of ethanol and propylene glycol. The vehicle that worked the best was the one that used 90% ethanol and 10% PPG. However, I should emphasize a couple of important points here:

1) They didn't test a whole bunch of different combinations, I believe it was just maybe four or five. If you'd like, I can dig up that study again and see which ones they tested. I know one was 100% ethanol, another (the best one) was 90/10 ethanol/PPG, another was 50/50 (IIRC), and another one was an even smaller percentage of ethanol.

2) Even though the 90/10 ethanol/PPG vehicle was the best at driving minoxidil into mouse skin in that in vitro experiment, I still don't necessarily believe that implies that such a vehicle would also be the best at growing hair on human scalps. There are other variables at work here which rather complicate the issue, IMHO, like just how similar are mouse skin and human skin? Maybe even more significantly, just how important is it in the first place that minoxidil be driven into the skin, as opposed to direct absorption into the hair follicle?

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

...but Bryan still won't give me his website home page, and the links to individual parts don't have navigation links to the rest of the site.

Like Felk said, I don't have a "home page" as such. I just use my Geocities account as a repository for various studies that I've scanned over the years. I post the link(s) to them on an as-needed basis.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

We don't even know what caused the higher hair counts, the higher PPG, or the higher minoxidil, or the lower ethanol.

I don't know if I should dilute my 5% with PPG or ethanol or glycerol or oil to get 3-4%.

Someone could even argue that the reason the 2% can keep up with the 5% is because it has more ethanol and is absorbed better. I'm sure PubMed has studies, but unless I can see the methods and the graphs, I won't be able to conclude much from an abstract. And they add water to the mixture too.

Even if we compare 15% minoxidil to this, we don't know if the vehicle did something.

At least if I dilute my minoxidil, I will save money, but that is if I can get alcohol cheap.

Do you think isopropyl acohol is nearly as nice on hair as ethanol?

 

[Bryan]

We don't even know what caused the higher hair counts, the higher PPG, or the higher minoxidil, or the lower ethanol.

It's true that Dr. Proctor has claimed on alt.baldspot that PPG has a bit of a hairgrowth-stimulating effect (he used to say that it's responsible for as much as HALF of the total beneficial effect of 2% Rogaine); nevertheless, that remains a rather difficult proposition to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, IMHO. Some studies seem to show such an effect, others don't. An example would be that Vera Price study where I got those "quitting-minoxidil" graphs. You'll notice from those that even though there was an unexplained increase in haircounts and hairweights in the no-treatment group, the exact same effect was also produced in the placebo group, which used the vehicle consisting of alcohol and PPG. In other words, all that extra PPG apparently provided no extra benefit. All this conflicting information can be quite puzzling at times!

Someone could even argue that the reason the 2% can keep up with the 5% is because it has more ethanol and is absorbed better.

Yes. You can't rule-out the possibility that the higher alcohol content of the 2% vehicle helps offset the lower amount of minoxidil. Of course, as usual, I'll point out that that's at THE SAME USUAL DOSE of 1 mL, twice a day. There's nothing stopping anybody from using a larger dose to make up the difference in the amount of minoxidil.

I'm sure PubMed has studies, but unless I can see the methods and the graphs, I won't be able to conclude much from an abstract. And they add water to the mixture too.

So far, there's only been a couple of studies making a direct, head-to-head comparison between the 2% and 5% versions of topical minoxidil. The Vera Price one is better than the other one, and most of the important information is contained in those two graphs which I've scanned and posted.

Do you think isopropyl acohol is nearly as nice on hair as ethanol?

Dunno for sure, but I'd stick with ethanol. It's considered the least toxic of the alcohols.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

I was not saying that the PPG might have growth properties. I was saying that it could deliver the minoxidil in a way that would make 2% minoxidil with 50% PPG just as effective as 5%. I'm saying that maybe the absorption time, and not so much the amount, causes the better effects.

 

[I_Hate_DHT]

So Bryan, If I understand correctly, you are saying that minoxidil only grows hair in the first 48 weeks? and then we can only expect to mantain what we won?

I'm going to assume that you're just pulling my leg!

Bryan

What do you mean with pulling your leg?

Since I'm a non native english speaker, I can't understand slang.

But here goes my queston again:

So Bryan, If I understand correctly, you are saying that minoxidil only grows hair in the first 48 weeks? and then we can only expect to mantain what we won?

I have read this on the Rogaine prospect, that if we experience regrow, it will only happen in the first 48 weeks. After that we will only mantain it, if we continue applying the product.


According to you post with haircount, you are saying that minoxidil only grows hair in the first 48 weeks, Can you or someone here confirm this?

 

[Felk]

In answer to the above post, Rogaine only says that because it relates to the studies they conducted.

Minoxidil has a different effect on everyone, and that description isn't true.

 

[CCS]

Also, since the study only lasted 48 weeks, how do we know it won't go higher later, unless the hair counts leveled out before then. But then they would say it maxed out at 40 weeks, not 48.