My Bad finesteride and minoxidil experience:

[Layneroxxx]

Hey Layneroxxx I can certainly relate your concern and postings how finasteride is making you tired. Honestly I feel desame way and just started taking finasteride two months ago. As a professional athlethe I have a very active lifestyle and has always felt energetic everyday. Now I'm sleeping way more than normal and that feeling of always being tired. When I go to gym its like I don't have that energy as before, I went to my dermatologist couple weeks ago and he indicated me that a lot of his patients reported desame side effects but wasnt discovered according to the propecia studies. I'm sure there a lot of sides that are not reported or discovered ,Like shedding. I'm going to stick out for a year and hopefully this doesn't continue. Whats ironic is whenever you report a side on propecia on this forum that is not on the propecia handbook or wasnt discovered in the studies,they think its all in your head or your just imagining it. Sometimes I wonder if their are any merck employees in this forum.

Lethargy IS reported, just in words the typical lay-person doesn't understand which is not convenient to finasteride users.

I realize this is just a forum and these aren't doctors that are giving medical advice. I just came here to talk to people with similar symptoms as I have, and with people who have experience coming off of finasteride and minoxidil.

I should have just said:

I'm coming off of finasteride and minoxidil, does anyone have any advice on how to minimize the shedding.

 

[paximperia]

If you take more than the specified dose of Minoxidil, especially if you also use a vaseline based product on your hair, and apply it while your hair is still wet, you might be having an overabsorption of Minoxidil. What's your blood pressure?

 

[Layneroxxx]

Asthenia is listed as a side-effect for proscar which is finesteride 5mg. HERE is the definition:

http://www.cancer.gov/Templates/db_alph ... drID=44787 :

The Proscar product monograph cites data from the MTOPS which shows little difference in incidence of asthenia between the treatment and placebo groups.

Placebo Doxazosin Finasteride Combination
(n=737) (n=756) (n=768) (n=786)
Adverse Experience (%) (%) (%) (%)
Body as a whole
Asthenia 7.1 15.7 5.3 16.8
Headache 2.3 4.1 2.0 2.3

Sorry I meant to take a pic of that table and post it, but I can't find the snapshot tool in this document (damn)! Anyways, the first figure (7.1%) refers to the placebo group and the third (5.3%) to the Proscar group.

It doesn't matter how these compare to placebos, asthenia IS reported as a side effect.

The definition of asthenia is vague and it's hard to compare a placebo pt's symptoms of asthenia and a test pt's symptoms of asthenia. The pt taking finasteride could have had more pronounced asthenia and you can never know this from this study since the definition was too vague. WHEW! I'm glad I have had college level statistics and quantitative and qualitative analysis!

Either way, I'll tell you how it goes for me. Just so you can tell people in the future about my experience :lol:

To the others helping me wean off finasteride and minoxidil thank you and I'd like to hear from others about other methods. I do have saw palmetto in my cabinet that I will try.

 

[Layneroxxx]

If you take more than the specified dose of Minoxidil, especially if you also use a vaseline based product on your hair, and apply it while your hair is still wet, you might be having an overabsorption of Minoxidil. What's your blood pressure?

I have tested my blood pressure and it was slightly high, but I've never tested the blood pressure at work....funny because I take close to a hundred blood pressures a day.

And thanks for the info, I did put it on wet in the morning. I will try to stay on 1/2 a ml at night for a while . . . on dry

 

[Pondle]

It doesn't matter how these compare to placebos, asthenia IS reported as a side effect.

The definition of asthenia is vague and it's hard to compare a placebo pt's symptoms of asthenia and a test pt's symptoms of asthenia. The pt taking finasteride could have had more pronounced asthenia and you can never know this from this study since the definition was too vague. WHEW! I'm glad I have had college level statistics and quantitative and qualitative analysis!

It doesn't matter how these compare to placebos!?! :freaked:

If there isn't a statistically significant difference between the treatment and placebo groups, on what basis do you reject the null hypothesis (i.e. that finasteride doesn't cause asthenia)? It seems to me that this is just rejecting scientific method and relying on prejudice.

BTW saw palmetto isn't regarded as very effective. I have personal experience here, used it for a year with no results, before I started taking my loss seriously and found this forum etc. etc...

You might have better luck with Nizoral 2-3 times a week. There are a couple of studies on the beneficial effects of nizoral, one of which is posted in the resource library. The other main topicals are Revivogen and Tricomin. There's a study mentioned on regrowth.com where apparently it outperformed Minoxidil 2%.

 

[Mew]

Layneroxx, I experienced the same symptoms you posted about originally in this thread when I took the drug 20 months ago for 11 months @ 1.25mg/day. Search my post history here for more info.

Since quitting the mental side effects have abated for me, unfortunately the sexual sides have not. My Testosterone levels also crashed after coming off the drug and along with it, my libido. Still trying to recover from that, as are many others over at propeciahelp.com.

I invite you to read through the studies and postings there... particularly the US FDA and UK Adverse Drug Reactions to Finasteride reports. What you describe are very real effects from the drug for SOME MEN. You are not alone in this, despite what the naysayers here might think or try to "prove" otherwise.

Best of luck,

Mew.

 

[Tallinn]

BTW saw palmetto isn't regarded as very effective. I have personal experience here, used it for a year with no results, before I started taking my loss seriously and found this forum etc. etc...

Thanks for the link, it was very interesting.

 

[Pondle]

What you describe are very real effects from the drug for SOME MEN. You are not alone in this, despite what the naysayers here might think or try to "prove" otherwise.

Mew, I'm sorry about your individual experience, it sucks. Nevertheless on the broader issue, it's a question of scientific evidence. Our friend claims expertise in stats and research methods, but isn't aware of importance of hypothesis testing! :lol: If there is no evidence of a 'real' difference in the incidence of a phenomenon between treatment and placebo groups, how we can determine that the treatment is a genuine causal factor?

 

[The Gardener]

Secondly...

TIMMAAHHH!

:lol: That's funny!

 

[Optimistic]

we continue to speak in ten years
with dutasteride user in a Mental hospital

Please tell me this is a joke? :lol:

Possible translation:

"My profession believes that in ten years time there will be many dutasteride users being admitted into psychiatric hospitals."

 

[Layneroxxx]

how we can determine that the treatment is a genuine causal factor?

By RULING OUT that it is the causal factor by stopping the medication!

Your stance to insinuate that the symptoms probably aren't related to the medication may cause people not to stop the medication and this is dangerous.

People may experience different side effects than those reported in this case study that you reported. I'm wondering how long the people in the test were monitored, and I'm guessing not long enough. Studies aren't fool proof, and the scientific process that derived the results can be critiqued and flaws can be found.

 

[Pondle]

how we can determine that the treatment is a genuine causal factor?

By RULING OUT that it is the causal factor by stopping the medication!

If you feel that stopping the medication is of benefit to you, fine. I've always said that you should do what you want, after all everyone is free to make their own minds up. But I do not see how you can postulate a causal relationship between a particular phenomenon and a given treatment, if the incidence of that phenomenon is more or less the same in both the treatment and the placebo groups in a randomised clinical trial. That flies in the face of accepted scientific research principles.

Your stance to insinuate that the symptoms probably aren't related to the medication may cause people not to stop the medication and this is dangerous.

I don't think I'm that influential, mate! 8) In my view, to make claims about possible side effects without reliable, statistically robust evidence is irresponsible. Of course every man has to make an individual decision about finasteride, preferably consulting professional medical opinion before they start the therapy and if they experience, or believe that they experience, any side effects.

People may experience different side effects than those reported in this case study that you reported. I'm wondering how long the people in the test were monitored, and I'm guessing not long enough. Studies aren't fool proof, and the scientific process that derived the results can be critiqued and flaws can be found.

MTOPS was a pretty big study. It lasted from December 1995 through March 1998, involved 17 clinics and 2,931 participants. If someone can find a flaw in the study, fine. Maybe there is one or several... but I haven't seen that critique presented yet.

 

[Layneroxxx]

Ok. I'm going on the assumption that finasteride is the cause of my symptoms: fatigue, dizziness, memory problems, sense of disconnection, trouble focusing my eyes and nystagmus.... and others mentioned. I need to try getting off of it because my job is at stake because of lack of focus. And I see their point.

I know minoxidil could be the cause of dizziness so I'm decreasing the dose to 1/2 bid ( twice a day) and I'm going to put it on dry since wetness can increase absorption from what others have mentioned.

And I've ordered Nizoral.

So I'm wondering about my shed.....

Just a note: I've felt better today after being off of finasteride for 3 days. I still have slight symptoms mentioned, and I have to admit that it is a Monday and the symptoms tended to get worse mid-week with fatigue.

I'll keep you posted.

 

[stampede]

If it's bad enough for you to lose your job, then obviously you need to get off it.

Shame you'll go bald