New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[Manoko]

Out of curiosity, did you mix the cetirizine with anything but water? Cet only supress PGD2 from mast cells (which is still a problem). I am seriously contemplating topical ibuprophen to non-selectively blunt both cox1 and 2 at the same time completely annihilating PGD2 regardless of where it is being produced,, and then add exogenous PGE2 at a different time, all this after making sure the initial inflammatory burst from wounding has ended.

I think that this is our best bet.
I plan on wounding every 2 weeks, apply minoxidil every night and apply hydrocortisone after what you refer as "the initial inflammatory burst".

Do you have any idea to the correct time-frame to apply anti-inflammatories after wounding ?

 

[squeegee]

4 Stages of Healing

How Do Wounds Heal?

Research work on acute wounds in an animal model shows that wounds heal in four phases. It is believed that chronic wounds must also go through the same basic phases. Some authors combine the first two phases.

The phases of wound healing are:

• Hemostasis
• Inflammation
• Proliferation or Granulation
• Remodeling or Maturation

Hemostasis:
So too in wound healing damaged blood vessels must be sealed. In wound healing the platelet is the cell which acts as the utility worker sealing off the damaged blood vessels. The blood vessels themselves constrict in response to injury but this spasm ultimately relaxes. The platelets secrete vasoconstrictive substances to aid in this process but their prime role is to form a stable clot sealing the damaged vessel. Under the influence of ADP (adenosine diphosphate) leaking from damaged tissues the platelets aggregate and adhere to the exposed collagen. They also secrete factors which interact with and stimulate the intrinsic clotting cascade through the production of thrombin, which in turn initiates the formation of fibrin from fibrinogen. The fibrin mesh strengthens the platelet aggregate into a stable hemostatic plug. Finally platelets also secrete cytokines such as platelet-derived growth factor (PDGF), which is recognized as one of the first factors secreted in initiating subsequent steps. Hemostasis occurs within minutes of the initial injury unless there are underlying clotting disorders. Inflammation Phase:
Clinically inflammation, the second stage of wound healing presents as erythema, swelling and warmth often associated with pain, the classic “rubor et tumor c*m calore et dolore”. This stage usually lasts up to 4 days post injury. In the wound healing analogy the first job to be done once the utilities are capped is to clean up the debris. This is a job for non-skilled laborers. These non-skilled laborers in a wound are the neutrophils or PMN’s (polymorphonucleocytes). The inflammatory response causes the blood vessels to become leaky releasing plasma and PMN’s into the surrounding tissue. The neutrophils phagocytize debris and microorganisms and provide the first line of defense against infection. They are aided by local mast cells. As fibrin is broken down as part of this clean-up the degradation products attract the next cell involved. The task of rebuilding a house is complex and requires someone to direct this activity or a contractor. The cell which acts as “contractor” in wound healing is the macrophage. Macrophages are able to phagocytize bacteria and provide a second line of defense. They also secrete a variety of chemotactic and growth factors such as fibroblast growth factor (FGF), epidermal growth factor (EGF), transforming growth factor beta (TGF-__ and interleukin-1 (IL-1) which appears to direct the next stage.

Inflammation Phase:
Clinically inflammation, the second stage of wound healing presents as erythema, swelling and warmth often associated with pain, the classic “rubor et tumor c*m calore et dolore”. This stage usually lasts up to 4 days post injury. In the wound healing analogy the first job to be done once the utilities are capped is to clean up the debris. This is a job for non-skilled laborers. These non-skilled laborers in a wound are the neutrophils or PMN’s (polymorphonucleocytes). The inflammatory response causes the blood vessels to become leaky releasing plasma and PMN’s into the surrounding tissue. The neutrophils phagocytize debris and microorganisms and provide the first line of defense against infection. They are aided by local mast cells. As fibrin is broken down as part of this clean-up the degradation products attract the next cell involved. The task of rebuilding a house is complex and requires someone to direct this activity or a contractor. The cell which acts as “contractor” in wound healing is the macrophage. Macrophages are able to phagocytize bacteria and provide a second line of defense. They also secrete a variety of chemotactic and growth factors such as fibroblast growth factor (FGF), epidermal growth factor (EGF), transforming growth factor beta (TGF-__ and interleukin-1 (IL-1) which appears to direct the next stage.

Proliferative Phase ( Proliferation, Granulation and Contraction):
The granulation stage starts approximately four days after wounding and usually lasts until day 21 in acute wounds depending on the size of the wound. It is characterized clinically by the presence of pebbled red tissue in the wound base and involves replacement of dermal tissues and sometimes subdermal tissues in deeper wounds as well as contraction of the wound. In the wound healing analogy once the site has been cleared of debris, under the direction of the contractor, the framers move in to build the framework of the new house. Sub-contractors can now install new plumbing and wiring on the framework and siders and roofers can finish the exterior of the house. The “framer” cells are the fibroblasts which secrete the collagen framework on which further dermal regeneration occurs. Specialized fibroblasts are responsible for wound contraction. The “plumber” cells are the pericytes which regenerate the outer layers of capillaries and the endothelial cells which produce the lining. This process is called angiogenesis. The “roofer” and “sider” cells are the keratinocytes which are responsible for epithelialization. In the final stage of epithelializtion, contracture occurs as the keratinocytes differentiate to form the protective outer layer or stratum corneum.

Remodeling or Maturation Phase:
Once the basic structure of the house is completed interior finishing may begin. So too in wound repair the healing process involves remodeling the dermal tissues to produce greater tensile strength. The principle cell involved in this process is the fibroblast. Remodeling can take up to 2 years after wounding and explains why apparently healed wounds can break down so dramatically and quickly if attention is not paid to the initial causative factors.

 

[princessRambo]

I think that this is our best bet.
I plan on wounding every 2 weeks, apply minoxidil every night and apply hydrocortisone after what you refer as "the initial inflammatory burst".

Do you have any idea to the correct time-frame to apply anti-inflammatories after wounding ?

I think one full week should be enough, that's what I am going by recently.

On an unrelated noted, since some people asked what I use: here is my anti 5AR regimen:

As soon as waking up in a fasted state:

10mg piperine in the morning on empty stomach followed by 320mg saw palmetto, +5000mcg biotin + 400mg Green tea extract (containing 200mg EGCG), 650mg curcumin, 2000mg evening primrose oil, 1000mg omega 3 (exact amount of omega 3, not fish oil containing fillers). 1000 mg MSM, 1000MG sililca, 5000iu cholecalciferol, 2 cups soy milk, walnuts and almonds, generic multi vitamin.

2 hours later:

a cup of concentrated tea infusion with white and black tea with a spoon of coconut oil into the tea (lauric acid) and a tea spoon of cayenne peper in the tea

Noon
60mg of soy isoflavones pill + iodine kelp cap + 10 mg piperine followed by 500mg of resveratrol + 650 mg of curcumin, followed by the tea infusion stated above + 2000mg of evening primrose oil + 1000 mg omega 3 (exact amount of omega 3 with no fillers) + 1000mg msm+ 1000mg silica,

2 hours later:
my custom tea infusion again (as listed above),

Before bed: 2000mg evening primrose oil + 1000mg pure omega 3 + 1000mg msm +1000mg silica + 16000% daily value worth of b12 + 450 mg of magnesium + the custom tea infusion state above + 1 scoop of fermented soy (japanese miso paste).

There is too many studies backing a lot of these and many people have tried these in the past, I personally attribute my success so far to consistency (never missed a dosage, except on unsual circumstances, like when traveling internationally on a long flight when the drugs are in the checked in luggage or some weird occasion like that). Use of piperine is key in my opinion as it dramatically increases pills bio-availability, curcumin for example is very poorly absorbed but piperine can increase the absorption rate by up to 2000%. Same with ECGC, Saw palmetto etc.

Lets look the study behind saw palmetto alone compared to finasteride:

Inhibition of the activity of 'basic' 5 alpha-reductase (type 1) detected in DU 145 cells and expressed in insect cells.

On the other hand, inhibition by an n-hexane lipid/sterol extract of Serenoa repens (LSESr) was non-competitive and, when expressed in terms of recommended therapeutic doses, was 3-fold greater for LSESr than for finasteride. These studies suggest that LSESr might exert a regulatory inhibitory activity due to its specific lipid/sterol composition.

A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial to determine the effectiveness of botanically derived inhibitors of 5-alpha-reductase in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia.

CONCLUSIONS: This study establishes the effectiveness of naturally occurring 5AR inhibitors against Androgenetic Alopecia for the first time, and justifies the expansion to larger trials.

Inhibition of androgen metabolism and binding by a liposterolic extract of "Serenoa repens B" in human foreskin fibroblasts.

The present studies show that S.R.E. inhibits 5 alpha-reductase, 3-ketosteroid reductase and receptor binding of androgens in cultured human foreskin fibroblasts. As the search for the ideal antiandrogen continues, S.R.E. appears to be a new type of antiandrogenic compound as therapeutics for the treatment of benign prostatic hypertrophy, hirsutism and so forth.

There is also the famous merck sponsorded research (not bothering posted that here) that completely discredited LSERs in comparison to finasteride but to me it's a matter of increased absorption and consistency, heck you will find users here who have used finasteride even dutasteride for years with nothing to show for, but nobody really knows how consistent anybody is.

The last and most important aspect of my regiment is... prayer lol. Since people asked, this is what I use, on a side note, I have zero side effects, now back on topic.

 

[Jacob]

almost all arguments in that forum have some scientific basis with published studies exactly as it is in this thread, dumbass.

I don't think that's the problem ppl have with him/them. But I'm not even sure why any new studies etc have to be posted- he had things taken care of/covered years ago. Things could not be better..or something similar..is what he said numerous times.

And can you guess where I found this quote?

DMSO itself is a powerful solvent. It is a versatile compound, and can be found in paint thinners and antifreeze. There is some concern that “industrial grade” DMSO, used by factories, is being purchased by individuals seeking the health benefits of DMSO. Industrial grade DMSO is about 99% pure, but is not approved for “medical” purposes. It is the only “legal” way that DMSO can be obtained by individual consumers.

Hint..Google it(with quotes around it..just the first sentence will do).

 

[jason5]

I think one full week should be enough, that's what I am going by recently.

On an unrelated noted, since some people asked what I use: here is my anti 5AR regimen:

As soon as waking up in a fasted state:

10g piperine in the morning on empty stomach followed by 320mg saw palmetto, +5000mcg biotin + 400mg Green tea extract (containing 200mg EGCG), 650mg curcumin, 2000mg evening primrose oil, 1000mg omega 3 (exact amount of omega 3, not fish oil containing fillers). 1000 mg MSM, 1000MG sililca, 5000iu cholecalciferol, 2 cups soy milk, walnuts and almonds, generic multi vitamin.

2 hours later:

a cup of concentrated tea infusion with white and black tea with a spoon of coconut oil into the tea (lauric acid) and a tea spoon of cayenne peper in the tea

Noon
60mg of soy isoflavones pill + iodine kelp cap + 10 mg piperine followed by 500mg of resveratrol + 650 mg of curcumin, followed by the tea infusion stated above + 2000mg of evening primrose oil + 1000 mg omega 3 (exact amount of omega 3 with no fillers) + 1000mg msm+ 1000mg silica,

2 hours later:
my custom tea infusion again (as listed above),

Before bed: 2000mg evening primrose oil + 1000mg pure omega 3 + 1000mg msm +1000mg silica + 16000% daily value worth of b12 + 450 mg of magnesium + the custom tea infusion state above + 1 scoop of fermented soy (japanese miso paste).

There is too many studies backing a lot of these and many people have tried these in the past, I personally attribute my success so far to consistency (never missed a dosage, except on unsual circumstances, like when traveling internationally on a long flight when the drugs are in the checked in luggage or some weird occasion like that). Use of piperine is key in my opinion as it dramatically increases pills availability, curcumin for example is very poorly absorbed but piperine can increase the absorption rate by up to 2000%. Same with ECGC, Saw palmetto etc.

Lets look the study behind saw palmetto alone compared to finasteride:

Inhibition of the activity of 'basic' 5 alpha-reductase (type 1) detected in DU 145 cells and expressed in insect cells.



A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial to determine the effectiveness of botanically derived inhibitors of 5-alpha-reductase in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia.



nhibition of androgen metabolism and binding by a liposterolic extract of "Serenoa repens B" in human foreskin fibroblasts.



There is also the famous merck sponsorded research (not bothering posted that here) that completely discredited LSERs in comparison to finasteride but to me it's a matter of increased absorption and consistency, heck you will find users here who have used finasteride even dutasteride for years with nothing to show for, but nobody really knows how consistent anybody is.

The last and most important aspect of my regiment is... prayer lol. Since people asked, this is what I use, on a side note, I have zero side effects, now back on topic.

Thank you for posting this, it's insightful, can you also let us know your topical regimen?

 

[Jacob]

I think that any topical anti inflammatory should be stopped with derma-rolling involved. When you are introducing the derma roller into your regimen, you want to introduces, promotes reconstruction. Inflammation (acute inflammatory), proliferation and remodeling are they keywords for results. Also, cox-2 inhibitor on a long term use is not a good idea.

What about numbing cream....(I don't use any btw)

 

[squeegee]

I have some but I don't use it.. Probably rinse it off ASAP after needling.

 

[odalbak]

Aren't numbing creams generally anti inflammatory? If so, is it so good to use them during rolling?

 

[squeegee]

Aren't numbing creams generally anti inflammatory? If so, is it so good to use them during rolling?

Really don't know about the outcome. I know that some tattoo shops don't want people to use it. why? don't know.

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I am still questioning the 1 week downtime for derma wounding. I think 7 days is too short.

WHAT TO AVOID -
To ensure the right healing environment, for at least 2 days post treatment, do NOT use any Alpha Hydroxy Acids, Beta Hydroxy Acid, Retinol (Vitamin A), Vitamin C (in a low pH formula) or anything perceived as ‘active’ skincare.

http://www.genuinedermaroller.com.au/dermaroller-therapy/post-treatment

 

[princessRambo]

I am still questioning the 1 week downtime for derma wounding. I think 7 days is too short.

I see it a little bit like bodybuilding, some people preach go heavy on each muscle group once a week, some think you can rest a muscle up to two days as long as you don't overwork them each time, some have what Martin Berkhan refers to as fuc*kArounditis, where they have no clue as to what they are doing. An expert like Lyle mcdonald will even go further incorporating timed carb cycling, optimal rep ranges etc. For the way the original study dudes did (only mild erythema), I think a week is enough. I for one cannot squat or deadlift more than once a week, unless I am cheating the workout and only deluding myself.

 

[DesperateOne]

I think one full week should be enough, that's what I am going by recently.

On an unrelated noted, since some people asked what I use: here is my anti 5AR regimen:

As soon as waking up in a fasted state:

10mg piperine in the morning on empty stomach followed by 320mg saw palmetto, +5000mcg biotin + 400mg Green tea extract (containing 200mg EGCG), 650mg curcumin, 2000mg evening primrose oil, 1000mg omega 3 (exact amount of omega 3, not fish oil containing fillers). 1000 mg MSM, 1000MG sililca, 5000iu cholecalciferol, 2 cups soy milk, walnuts and almonds, generic multi vitamin.

2 hours later:

a cup of concentrated tea infusion with white and black tea with a spoon of coconut oil into the tea (lauric acid) and a tea spoon of cayenne peper in the tea

Noon
60mg of soy isoflavones pill + iodine kelp cap + 10 mg piperine followed by 500mg of resveratrol + 650 mg of curcumin, followed by the tea infusion stated above + 2000mg of evening primrose oil + 1000 mg omega 3 (exact amount of omega 3 with no fillers) + 1000mg msm+ 1000mg silica,

2 hours later:
my custom tea infusion again (as listed above),

Before bed: 2000mg evening primrose oil + 1000mg pure omega 3 + 1000mg msm +1000mg silica + 16000% daily value worth of b12 + 450 mg of magnesium + the custom tea infusion state above + 1 scoop of fermented soy (japanese miso paste).

There is too many studies backing a lot of these and many people have tried these in the past, I personally attribute my success so far to consistency (never missed a dosage, except on unsual circumstances, like when traveling internationally on a long flight when the drugs are in the checked in luggage or some weird occasion like that). Use of piperine is key in my opinion as it dramatically increases pills bio-availability, curcumin for example is very poorly absorbed but piperine can increase the absorption rate by up to 2000%. Same with ECGC, Saw palmetto etc.

Lets look the study behind saw palmetto alone compared to finasteride:

Inhibition of the activity of 'basic' 5 alpha-reductase (type 1) detected in DU 145 cells and expressed in insect cells.



A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial to determine the effectiveness of botanically derived inhibitors of 5-alpha-reductase in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia.



Inhibition of androgen metabolism and binding by a liposterolic extract of "Serenoa repens B" in human foreskin fibroblasts.



There is also the famous merck sponsorded research (not bothering posted that here) that completely discredited LSERs in comparison to finasteride but to me it's a matter of increased absorption and consistency, heck you will find users here who have used finasteride even dutasteride for years with nothing to show for, but nobody really knows how consistent anybody is.

The last and most important aspect of my regiment is... prayer lol. Since people asked, this is what I use, on a side note, I have zero side effects, now back on topic.

Holly crap, that is a lot of stuff, to get the results you get it is worth it imo. The only thing that worries me is drinking the tea at night, I sometimes drink green tea and I can't sleep if I drink it a couple of hours before bed. Also, when I was doing much research on teas, I found that adding lemon significantly increases absorption of antioxidants.

This is very helpful, I will have to save it for future reference. I am also interested on the topical regime. Thanks Rambo, much appreciated.

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On a side note Rambo, You mind if I make it a blogspot site for your regime alone?

 

[zombiehair]

Great result pics PrincessRambo. Thanks for posting your anti 5ar regimen ,that's some breakfast
nice post on inflammation squeegee.

My hairloss has been diffuse over many years not un similar in pattern to princessRambos. Having a few terminal and a thin covering of miniaturized hair over the balding area gives me some hope that these
might help in revitalizing the area.

Its been about a week since my last roll I think ill give it a few more days before my next assault .
To add to the talk of bleeding Like I have mentioned before I don't bleed much and I put this down to my thin scalp not producing much hair or anything else up there at the moment.

Still to early to say for sure on personal results but I will say Im feeling very positive.

 

[baldnesssadness]

i didn't mix the cetirizine myself i just got it from someone the ingredients are

water ethanol propylenglycol phosphatidiylcholine cetirizine powder

so ibuprofen blocks cox1, cox2 and pgd2? i hope i got that right

 

[theRA]

in theory, if bald areas have low (or lower) blood flow, which prevents hair to "live" on that area, how come transpanted hair on such areas survives?

 

[super]

in theory, if bald areas have low (or lower) blood flow, which prevents hair to "live" on that area, how come transpanted hair on such areas survives?

IDK, man. For what i know, it doesn't.

I went to two very, very, very good doctors in hair transplant, they both said they couldn't do much for me. And the one that is more well-known even said that if he did the hair transplant now, looking at how my scalp was and my baldness was, i would loose the hair in some years. So, he didn't want to do the hair transplant because it would fade in some years and i would not have anymore area to take new hair from.

That is why i started my treatment 1,5 years ago, to make my scalp more receptive, i guess. My hair stopped falling and started to grow. Now they say they can do the hair transplant, but we decided to wait a little longer.

I don't know. But after we take finasteride and all that stuff to stop our hairs from falling, i believe our hairs fall in a speed way slower than NW0 or 1 people, i may be wrong, but people with lots of hair loose a lot of hair too. The difference is that those people produce a lot more new hair. We don't, or almost don't. So, even if we almost stop hair from falling, eventually we will be bald. Since 1,5 years ago i was loosing hair fast (as i said, without the treatment i would probably be a NW6 or worst by now), the hair transplant doctor said that 1) he couldn't do anything right now, 2) the hair would fall again in a couple of years if my hair kept falling as it was and 3) he could do the hair transplant, but only after my hair had stopped falling.

Cool thing about the roller is that is makes you produce some follicles with each roll. So, it is like a "micro-hair transplant".

- - - Updated - - -

I see it a little bit like bodybuilding, some people preach go heavy on each muscle group once a week, some think you can rest a muscle up to two days as long as you don't overwork them each time, some have what Martin Berkhan refers to as fuc*kArounditis, where they have no clue as to what they are doing. An expert like Lyle mcdonald will even go further incorporating timed carb cycling, optimal rep ranges etc. For the way the original study dudes did (only mild erythema), I think a week is enough. I for one cannot squat or deadlift more than once a week, unless I am cheating the workout and only deluding myself.

Really don't know about the outcome. I know that some tattoo shops don't want people to use it. why? don't know.

- - - Updated - - -

I am still questioning the 1 week downtime for derma wounding. I think 7 days is too short.

WHAT TO AVOID -
To ensure the right healing environment, for at least 2 days post treatment, do NOT use any Alpha Hydroxy Acids, Beta Hydroxy Acid, Retinol (Vitamin A), Vitamin C (in a low pH formula) or anything perceived as ‘active’ skincare.

http://www.genuinedermaroller.com.au/dermaroller-therapy/post-treatment

I will do only twice a month. My doctors think it could be dangerous to do it sooner. They REALLY hurt the scalp. So they think i have to wait at least 14 days to recover.

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi squeegee,

Years ago, I used dermaroller to remove some scars from my face (forehead) and used to apply emu oil almost immediately after the bleeding stopped. This gave me pretty good results and my scars were removed almost completely (it took time, though: a couple of years or more). I used emu oil because of its regenerative properties but ALSO because of its anti-inflammatory properties.... (and I think it is very similar to the castor oil many people use here.



Do you think that, in this case, the regenerative properties of the emu oil are less beneficial than the anti-inflammatory ones?
In other words, would you recommend not to use it at the inflammatory stage of the healing process?

...many thanks

It is possible that emu oil acts against inflammation, but I suposse that you don't grow hairs in the forehead, ¿verdad?

 

[princessRambo]

i didn't mix the cetirizine myself i just got it from someone the ingredients are

water ethanol propylenglycol phosphatidiylcholine cetirizine powder

so ibuprofen blocks cox1, cox2 and pgd2? i hope i got that right

COX is the enzyme responsible for creating the prostaglandins, kind of like 5AR is responsible for the formation of DHT. Cox is a family of enzymes including COX 1 2 and 3. In some environments (like asthma) COX 1 can induces PGD2, in others, PGD2 induction is primarily due to COX 2. This is the reason why I think that selectively targeting either one is a shot in the dark.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20880055

CONCLUSION AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE:

Biosynthesis of PGD(2) was increased in subjects with asthma and its formation is catalysed predominantly by COX-1. By contrast, COX-2 contributes substantially to the biosynthesis of PGE(2) .

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14698037

All together, the present results demonstrated that COX-2-mediated PGD(2) synthesis is a PC biosynthesis regulator in rat renal papilla

Ibuprophen strongly inhibits both COX 1 and 2 (which will certainly block PGE2), the other thing is that its half life is relatively short.

One of the reason I think the calcitriol analogue helped me is that it strongly inhibits COX2 (at least in the prostate) and significantly upgulates wnt/bcatenin in the hair follicle.

http://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/26/4A/2525.abstract

Calcitriol significantly decreases the expression of the PG synthesizing cyclooxygenase-2 (COX-2) gene, while increasing that of PG inactivating 15-prostaglandin dehydrogenase (15-PGDH).

That said, I wonder why people think that using propylene glycol or alcohol as a vehicle for a substance like cetirizine that has an insanely high water solubility is a good idea :wow: I mean, water is used to dilute substances like PPG and enhance their skin permeability (for solution that are PPG soluble, but not water soluble). But for something that is crazy water soluble like cet, given that water, having only a molecular weight of about 18 g/mol and already permeates extremely easily through the skin, why would you mix it with anything that might interfere or waste the disolved substance in the first place? 8O

 

[Armando Jose]

certainly not...

...But the regeneration of the skin on that area was very good. That's the fact I want to highlight.
And I *guess* the healing and regeneration of the skin is basically the same process on the forehead and on the scalp (am I wrong?).

... then, I wonder if it could be *even better* to wait some days before applying the emu oil, just to profit of the inflammation process, which seems to be necessary in this case.

Cheers

Yes , I am with you, inflammation is a natural process that aid to regenerate tissues, other thing is chronic inflammation that is bad. I saw an example with the aloe plant in wounds, if it is applied very early the regeneration is delayed, it is better a few days before aply the plant, aloe is a very potent antiinflamatory natural product. The chart posted beforeit is very conclusive

OTOH, its is natural that you don`t grow hairs in forehead, it is normal..... an example jojoba oil is good for a healthy hair baut if you use this product in cutis, you don`t coarse the vellus or groth hair

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That said, I wonder why people think that using propylene glycol or alcohol as a vehicle for a substance like cetirizine that has an insanely high water solubility is a good idea :wow: I mean, water is used to dilute substances like PPG and enhance their skin permeability (for solution that are PPG soluble, but not water soluble). But for something that is crazy water soluble like cet, given that water, having only a molecular weight of about 18 g/mol and already permeates extremely easily through the skin, why would you mix it with anything that might interfere or waste the disolved substance in the first place? 8O

+1

 

[selfaware]

.. Let's get these dead cells back in business. For me Androgen Alopecia is nothing but the skin in Ischemic state.. Skin is an organ just like your heart.. never forget that. There is so many connections with male pattern baldness and Prostate Cancer and Cardiovascular diseases.. they all have the same thing in common, Necrosis, apoptosis, Hypoxia and high androgen receptors activity.

" In the experiment group, 50 mg/kg/day of minoxidil sulfate

Well said. I think that's exactly right. The skin is becoming unhealthy, and so the follicles die off. QED. Another thing, I saw a paper in Medical Hypotheses a while back which noted that the cranium never stops growing, and as we get older, that enlargement of skull stretches the scalp taut and thin...and he proposed that as a major cause of hair-loss. Considering the more recent papers cited here about the necessity for a good number of adipocytes (skin fat layer)....and also the papers showing that massage improves hair growth (stretching of skin, which would make it looser, less 'crushed' by skull), I think that hypothesis from the 90's had some merit.

PS; 80mg/kg ??.....so for me, 3.5 freaking GRAMS of minoxidil a day?!?...lol. Of course, given the metabolic-ratio tween rats and men, it'd really only be 10mg/kg for me....but still....the thought of 3.5g cracked me up.

By the way, hair-health is directly impacted by issues in our adrenals, thyroid, and especially pituitary (which -controls- thyroid and adrenals, and so many many other -critical- glands, hormones, enzymes, and processes). And continuous low-grade mercury-poisoning is one of the prime causes of pituitary-related problems (such as hypothyroidism and adrenal-fatigue; both of which have become massively more prevalent over the past 20-30 yrs than most people, or their useless doctors, realize). I recently discovered that I've got moderate 'adrenal exhaustion', and when I began doing serious research on that, I then learned that my symptoms-list is virtually a perfect-match for mercury and lead toxicity. And guess what....I've got a ton of amalgam in my mouth from old dental work...and I worked in electronics for decades....think...."hour after hour of lead-vapors from soldering...day after day...".
So, if you've got amalgam in your mouth, might want to go have it all replaced with composite fillings. I just made an appt to have that done in 3 wks. fwiw...

 

[bushbush]

There is no evidence that mercury causes male pattern baldness.