Occupy Wall Street - 3 Months

Has the message finally been communicated?

  • Yes, OWS's message has been made clear.

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Aplunk1

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Would like to take a poll here. OWS is celebrating its third month of on-going demonstrations.

Poll breaks it down into the "idea" of OWS--which is, "Has the message finally been communicated?"

If you think the question is deliberately ambiguous, it's because it is. I'm curious what your thoughts are.
 

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somone uk

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name me a protest in the last 50 years that has worked.......
that's right none in the developed world

i don't entirely support their argument but i don't see shareholders having the best interests of society but rather work in their own self interest, i don't think this model creates a fair society.

the effective way to veto capitalism is to do it with your wallet
funding co-operatives is a far more effective cause then to b**ch outside of wall street whist drinking frappuccinos and blogging on a mac
but i suppose a boycott on capitalism would require patience, self-control and determination ..... 3 things a wall street protester doesn't possess
 

Agahi

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Oh I think the message was apparent from the get-go. Now will it come to any changes? No I don't think so, IMO the only thing it will accomplish is some bad memories for the people(some involved in the protests, some who where not) who where beaten/maced. Nothing wrong with trying though.
 

HughJass

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I think the message has been communicated. I haven't been following it very closely so I don't know what their strategy is with the protest or what they are hoping to achieve. Was their plan just to make lots of noise and hope the crook bankers and their political enablers would curb their ways and provide a better society for everyone?


Like somoneUK says protest isn't nearly enough. You need a general strike by the workers and in my opinion one which has the explicit goal of taking over the means of production.
 

TheGrayMan2001

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They are a bunch of hippy dumbshits. That's all I can say.

I am not a Republican, nor do I support any of the candidates running for president. I do not like Obama, I don't like libertarians, and I especially don't like the Communist-wannabes at the Occupy Wall Street protests.
 

Cassin

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TheGrayMan2001 said:
They are a bunch of hippy dumbshits. That's all I can say.

I am not a Republican, nor do I support any of the candidates running for president. I do not like Obama, I don't like libertarians, and I especially don't like the Communist-wannabes at the Occupy Wall Street protests.

Ok. How do you feel about companies like GE who made over 14 billion yet paid no taxes?

All of these companies that are getting their coffers filled by taxpayer money..are you ok with what they are doing with the money that you gave the government?
 

TheGrayMan2001

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cassin said:
TheGrayMan2001 said:
They are a bunch of hippy dumbshits. That's all I can say.

I am not a Republican, nor do I support any of the candidates running for president. I do not like Obama, I don't like libertarians, and I especially don't like the Communist-wannabes at the Occupy Wall Street protests.

Ok. How do you feel about companies like GE who made over 14 billion yet paid no taxes?

All of these companies that are getting their coffers filled by taxpayer money..are you ok with what they are doing with the money that you gave the government?

Why would I agree with a bunch of dirty hippies that were the ones who put the guy into office that allowed this to happen in the first place?

OWS's answer is more government. That isn't the solution. That's the entire problem.
 

somone uk

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the centre of the problem is quite simple, greed
whether that is corporate greed or political greed is a matter of picking your poison

the finger can be pointed in 100 directions, the housing crisis could be the governments fault for not regulating the banks, how ridiculous it is to not see the banks were riding the housing bubble, house prices weren't always going to go up

or you could blame the banks for putting all their eggs in 1 basket

or there are the morons, who tried to live way beyond their means, the mathematical illiteracy of the world becomes very apparent when mortgage adverts on TV become quick quid and wonga.com adverts or doorstop lenders
there was a time when debt was taken with a pinch of salt, people didn't easily get into debt and it was a well planned and calculated decision but now people want to run into debt willy nilly

as far as the recovery goes we are going out to inflate a new housing bubble, 96% of bank investment is housing, we have a government carelessly cutting and just sitting on the hope the private sector is going to fill in the vacuum, investing in businesses creates jobs, investing in housing will cause another recession in 18 years time
 

HughJass

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somone uk said:
or there are the morons, who tried to live way beyond their means, the mathematical illiteracy of the world becomes very apparent when mortgage adverts on TV become quick quid and wonga.com adverts or doorstop lenders
there was a time when debt was taken with a pinch of salt, people didn't easily get into debt and it was a well planned and calculated decision but now people want to run into debt willy nilly


There was also a time when people could go to university for free.


You can't deny the lack of thrift amongst our consumerist generation but it's also becoming much harder (impossible?) for young people to live without getting themselves into some degree of debt. Which suits the banks and the governments just fine.


Debt=control.
 

HughJass

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A really interesting piece which is somewhat related to the topic:


THE Occupy Wall Street protests have come and mostly gone, and whether they continue to have an impact or not, they have brought an astounding fact to the public’s attention: a mere 1 percent of Americans own just under half of the country’s financial assets and other investments. America, it would seem, is less equitable than ever, thanks to our no-holds-barred capitalist system.

But at another level, something different has been quietly brewing in recent decades: more and more Americans are involved in co-ops, worker-owned companies and other alternatives to the traditional capitalist model. We may, in fact, be moving toward a hybrid system, something different from both traditional capitalism and socialism, without anyone even noticing.

Some 130 million Americans, for example, now participate in the ownership of co-op businesses and credit unions. More than 13 million Americans have become worker-owners of more than 11,000 employee-owned companies, six million more than belong to private-sector unions.

And worker-owned companies make a difference. In Cleveland, for instance, an integrated group of worker-owned companies, supported in part by the purchasing power of large hospitals and universities, has taken the lead in local solar-panel installation, “green†institutional laundry services and a commercial hydroponic greenhouse capable of producing more than three million heads of lettuce a year.

Local and state governments are likewise changing the nature of American capitalism. Almost half the states manage venture capital efforts, taking partial ownership in new businesses. Calpers, California’s public pension authority, helps finance local development projects; in Alaska, state oil revenues provide each resident with dividends from public investment strategies as a matter of right; in Alabama, public pension investing has long focused on state economic development.

Moreover, this year some 14 states began to consider legislation to create public banks similar to the longstanding Bank of North Dakota; 15 more began to consider some form of single-payer or public-option health care plan.

Some of these developments, like rural co-ops and credit unions, have their origins in the New Deal era; some go back even further, to the Grange movement of the 1880s. The most widespread form of worker ownership stems from 1970s legislation that provided tax benefits to owners of small businesses who sold to their employees when they retired. Reagan-era domestic-spending cuts spurred nonprofits to form social enterprises that used profits to help finance their missions.

Recently, growing economic pain has provided a further catalyst. The Cleveland cooperatives are an answer to urban decay that traditional job training, small-business and other development strategies simply do not touch. They also build on a 30-year history of Ohio employee-ownership experiments traceable to the collapse of the steel industry in the 1970s and ’80s.

Further policy changes are likely. In Indiana, the Republican state treasurer, Richard Mourdock, is using state deposits to lower interest costs to employee-owned companies, a precedent others states could easily follow. Senator Sherrod Brown, Democrat of Ohio, is developing legislation to support worker-owned strategies like that of Cleveland in other cities. And several policy analysts have proposed expanding existing government “set aside†procurement programs for small businesses to include co-ops and other democratized enterprises.

If such cooperative efforts continue to increase in number, scale and sophistication, they may suggest the outlines, however tentative, of something very different from both traditional, corporate-dominated capitalism and traditional socialism.

It’s easy to overestimate the possibilities of a new system. These efforts are minor compared with the power of Wall Street banks and the other giants of the American economy. On the other hand, it is precisely these institutions that have created enormous economic problems and fueled public anger.

During the populist and progressive eras, a decades-long buildup of public anger led to major policy shifts, many of which simply took existing ideas from local and state efforts to the national stage. Furthermore, we have already seen how, in moments of crisis, the nationalization of auto giants like General Motors and Chrysler can suddenly become a reality. When the next financial breakdown occurs, huge injections of public money may well lead to de facto takeovers of major banks.

And while the American public has long supported the capitalist model, that, too, may be changing. In 2009 a Rasmussen poll reported that Americans under 30 years old were “essentially evenly divided†as to whether they preferred “capitalism†or “socialism.â€

A long era of economic stagnation could well lead to a profound national debate about an America that is dominated neither by giant corporations nor by socialist bureaucrats. It would be a fitting next direction for a troubled nation that has long styled itself as of, by and for the people.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/opini ... unite.html
 

Bryan

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aussieavodart said:
A really interesting piece which is somewhat related to the topic:

And while the American public has long supported the capitalist model, that, too, may be changing. In 2009 a Rasmussen poll reported that Americans under 30 years old were “essentially evenly dividedâ€￾ as to whether they preferred “capitalismâ€￾ or “socialism.â€￾

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/opini ... unite.html

Why have Americans been so typically terrified of socialism? :dunno: They are SOOO politically unsophisticated! I'm glad such attitudes are slowly changing.
 

Agahi

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Not really so much scared of socialism, more the lack of freedom and "tyranny" that usually comes along with it. Though I could be wrong about that being the reason.
 

TheGrayMan2001

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Bryan said:
aussieavodart said:
A really interesting piece which is somewhat related to the topic:

And while the American public has long supported the capitalist model, that, too, may be changing. In 2009 a Rasmussen poll reported that Americans under 30 years old were “essentially evenly dividedâ€￾ as to whether they preferred “capitalismâ€￾ or “socialism.â€￾

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/opini ... unite.html

Why have Americans been so typically terrified of socialism? :dunno: They are SOOO politically unsophisticated! I'm glad such attitudes are slowly changing.

Socialism is a terrible ideology that doesn't work. France and the UK have major problems with their "socialist" experiments. Countries like Sweden and Norway have reformed many of their systems that were failing in the 90s--even now they are facing some problems. The only reason it comes anywhere near close to working there is they have a small, homogenous population. France and the UK are not as big as the USA and yet they are seeing the same problems we will face on an grander scale.
 

Jacob

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Bryan said:
aussieavodart said:
A really interesting piece which is somewhat related to the topic:

And while the American public has long supported the capitalist model, that, too, may be changing. In 2009 a Rasmussen poll reported that Americans under 30 years old were “essentially evenly dividedâ€￾ as to whether they preferred “capitalismâ€￾ or “socialism.â€￾

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/opini ... unite.html

Why have Americans been so typically terrified of socialism? :dunno: They are SOOO politically unsophisticated! I'm glad such attitudes are slowly changing.

I think they're changing away from it even more..thanks to Obama. Thankfully.
 

Dedge89

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The problem like Someone uk said is greed. It's from both the political and corporate side of things and they go hand in hand. I used to think socialism is the answer but it would most probably only work on a smaller scale. Giant corporations own so much of the money within a country yet it is rarely used for any good of the general public or the rest of the world, it is just put back into pumping out more products for our sheeple to keep buying which keeps the gears of the whole machine working.

I really don't know what the next step is in society to sort out such problems as inequality and greed. The system is so deeply rooted now and the men at the top are just not going to be willing for a mass over turn. Though I sometimes feel even stupid complaining about this stuff considering how worse off other people are in the world. It feels almost stupid insulting the system when if its anyone out of the worlds ruled public that is getting the best deal, it is us.

However it also seems that capitalism is slowly imploding on itself. I wonder, I wonder...
 

Bryan

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TheGrayMan2001 said:
Socialism is a terrible ideology that doesn't work. France and the UK have major problems with their "socialist" experiments.

Really? What are those "major problems"?
 
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