Optimal AHK-Cu Proportioning: Math Inside.

[jonson]

It is not a bald spot, it's more like my hairloss got worse what mean 2 options:
1)the ahk works and it just the shed of starting a treatment.
2)other thing.
I use it in cream vehicle twice a day 2.5% formula.
I use it between. Month or two.

 

[TheLastHairbender]

Heck man, I don't know, and further I don't think there exists a man who could tell you with any certainty what might be happening. I wasn't aware a priori that AHK would cause sheds; the study on DPCs was a short-term study that found elongation of the shafts, etc, without ever having gone through catagen to anagen phases, so there was no shedding in their study of what are, effectively, cultured har follicles. I have seen a few other people report something similar though, so let me ask:

Do you also use minoxidil? Have your minoxidil usage patterns changed at all within the last three months or so? I stopped using minoxidil for 2-3 weeks back in late January / early February and my hair has been coming out in droves since mid-March, so there can be a delay of several weeks to several months before the effects of minoxidil discontinuation are apparent.

It's also possible that the usage of AHK-Cu topically has impeded the penetration of minoxidil into the scalp. Several others have reported similar minoxidil-like sheds after using AHK for a few weeks. One hypothesis is that the AHK has some effect on scalp tissue that prevents minoxidil from penetrating as well as it does in the absence of AHK. This could be true even if you wash your hair in between using AHK and minoxidil...the idea is that the AHK is changing something favorably right? But we have no way to rule out that diminished dermal permeability is one way the scalp is changing in response to AHK-Cu treatment. This would imply that it's not a transitory shed you're experiencing, but basically the effects of coming off minoxidil, which means hair loss that will be permanent unless you find a way to once again deliver minoxidil to the scalp, which probably means coming off the AHK and returning to a full-course of minoxidil, then play the waiting game. Remember this is only a possible scenario.

An alternate is that the AHK is actually improving permeability of the scalp and providing more minoxidil to the follicles, in much the way that Tretinoin/Retin-A is thought to do. That would mean your shed is one of the temporary 'minoxidil sheds', a widespread shifting of follicles into their anagen (growth) phase that precipitates an explosion of new, thicker hair. The effect would be synonymous with someone switching up from 5% to 15% minoxidil...many people report an aggressive shed at first, followed by a renewal of new, thick hair from the increased minoxidil dosage. This is obviously the better scenario.

I can't think of any simple observation that can distinguish between these two hypotheses...besides continuing to do what you're doing and see if hair ever grows there again, but I don't know if you're interested in taking those chances. Maybe someone else can chime in. It's possible if you go tell a doctor you've been experimenting with off-label homebrew topicals and now you're losing your hair maybe he'd do a biopsy and assay your dermal papilla...then we'd all get to know the answer!

Well, if you're taking minoxidil, that is.

Last question: Are you supplementing with any form of zinc while you're taking AHK? You really should...the zinc:copper ratio is a first-order relationship that shouldn't get out of whack, some people reported the aggravation of latent tinnitus after several weeks of AHK use, which is indicative of a zinc deficiency and/or copper overload. Here are some other symptoms that would be expected of zinc deficiency http://tinyurl.com/ckvtk55 or copper toxicity http://tinyurl.com/6qewhcf, although I haven't heard any of them reported among AHK users except for the tinnitus bit. Monitor carefully for any of that stuff if you decide to continue treatment, and think about popping a 25-50mg zinc picolinate supplement everyday, you can get 6 months' worth on Amazon for $10: http://tinyurl.com/7rbe3xs.

Unfortunately the only known resource on peoples' experience with AHK has been withdrawn, so there is now a lack of information about even the limited precedent we did have to go on. You poor guys a couple months deep on heavy AHK trials and no shared information resources anymore - I feel for you, nobody said it was easy to be the avant garde of hair loss.

No personal experiences to offer though, the only AHK-Cu I've used came in: Tricomin!

(And Folligen if that stanky stuff even has AHK-Cu in it.)

 

[jonson]

No man i don't use minoxidil.
If treatment is working so weak hair must fall and it take time.
Many people experience shed at the start of ahk treatment.

 

[TheLastHairbender]

Many people experience shed at the start of ahk treatment.

Do they? I don't think we can even say many people have tried AHK, and the information dissemination from that group has been anything but perfect, so I wouldn't be comfortable relying on that assumption. Especially if you're not using minoxidil. Note that AHK-Cu is available in commercial products, albeit in potentially low concentrations, and none of them (Tricomin, GraftCyte) indicate that shedding should be expected. I'd be careful, but it's your call. If you continue using the AHK please let us know if and how you recover from the shed, it might help others make more informed decisions about their own treatment options.

Can I ask what cream vehicle you're using? Did you make it yourself or source it from the old AHK hotspot?

 

[Bryan]

...Note that AHK-Cu is available in commercial products, albeit in potentially low concentrations, and none of them (Tricomin, GraftCyte) indicate that shedding should be expected.

I think you're confusing AHK-Cu with GHK-Cu. It's GHK-Cu which is in GraftCyte, not AHK-Cu.

 

[TheLastHairbender]

Thanks, good to know. I'm not sure that changes anything for you jonson, maybe someone else has experience or more information about this. You've reached the limit of my practical knowledge on the topic at this time. Good luck!

 

[israelite]

Thanks, good to know. I'm not sure that changes anything for you jonson, maybe someone else has experience or more information about this. You've reached the limit of my practical knowledge on the topic at this time. Good luck!

Yes no1 can get ahk

 

[jonson]

And tricomin have only 0.3% ahk. You need 2.5%

 

[israelite]

And tricomin have only 0.3% ahk. You need 2.5%

Jonson add finasteride to your regimen

 

[TheLastHairbender]

Edited a silly post.

 

[israelite]

I actually have an extra 20g of the blue stuff if anyone wants it, bought 1oz and turns out I'll only be using 8g over the next 6 months. So 20g should last 1 year, 3 months at 1.33g/mo. Send a PM with your location, highest post count gets it, subject to regulations for your region which I'll have to verify first. Thanks!

How do mix your ahk

 

[TheLastHairbender]

I haven't yet mixed mine but planning to do so in the next few days. Here's the plan: I washed out a liquid minoxidil bottle with the 1 mL pipette dropper, thoroughly washing then rinsed, rinsed, rinsed over the next few days. I plan to put 60 mL Tricomin (1/3 of a 6oz bottle) into a graduated cylinder, add 1.33g of AHK-Cu, stirring to dissolve, return the mixture to the repurposed minoxidil bottle with the pipette dropper, and then just apply 1 mL twice daily or 2mL once daily, depending on drying time, potential scalp staining, and interaction with the topical minoxidil and spironolactone I use. I plan to keep the mixed solution at room temperature, and will continue to store the unused AHK and Tricomin in the fridge. I've heard that the mixture into Tricomin works, and I'm hoping the mixture remains stable at room temperature for the 30 days each batch will be pre-mixed for. (I store my extra treatment supplies in the fridge but like to keep my current bottle of minoxidil, spironolactone, and what will be AHK at room temperature so that the cold liquid doesn't cause pores to shrink or close - to that extent I often like to soften the scalp tissue with a warm damp rag prior to application of any topicals).

I'll let you know how the dissolution and shelf stability go within the next week or two, I plan to mix and start treatment May 1 so I have a temporal benchmark for evaluating treatment. Thanks for asking!

 

[israelite]

I haven't yet mixed mine but planning to do so in the next few days. Here's the plan: I washed out a liquid minoxidil bottle with the 1 mL pipette dropper, thoroughly washing then rinsed, rinsed, rinsed over the next few days. I plan to put 60 mL Tricomin (1/3 of a 6oz bottle) into a graduated cylinder, add 1.33g of AHK-Cu, stirring to dissolve, return the mixture to the repurposed minoxidil bottle with the pipette dropper, and then just apply 1 mL twice daily or 2mL once daily, depending on drying time, potential scalp staining, and interaction with the topical minoxidil and spironolactone I use. I plan to keep the mixed solution at room temperature, and will continue to store the unused AHK and Tricomin in the fridge. I've heard that the mixture into Tricomin works, and I'm hoping the mixture remains stable at room temperature for the 30 days each batch will be pre-mixed for. (I store my extra treatment supplies in the fridge but like to keep my current bottle of minoxidil, spironolactone, and what will be AHK at room temperature so that the cold liquid doesn't cause pores to shrink or close - to that extent I often like to soften the scalp tissue with a warm damp rag prior to application of any topicals).

I'll let you know how the dissolution and shelf stability go within the next week or two, I plan to mix and start treatment May 1 so I have a temporal benchmark for evaluating treatment. Thanks for asking!

bro I'm going to mix my next batch following your directions.

 

[jonson]

I still suffer from propecia side effects man. I am very sensitive and must find something without sides.

 

[israelite]

I still suffer from propecia side effects man. I am very sensitive and must find something without sides.

What about asc j9 of Ru.

 

[jonson]

I want to use asc or cb 03 01. But i am afraid to use anti androgen because what propecia did to me.

 

[israelite]

I want to use asc or cb 03 01. But i am afraid to use anti androgen because what propecia did to me.

Asc is pretty cheap

 

[TheLastHairbender]

bro I'm going to mix my next batch following your directions.

Yikes, I didn't mean to be giving advice on how to do it. I just wanted to make public record of precisely what I was doing in case they find me dead or something. While I firmly believe that increasing the collective knowledge is good, I think that encouraging others to take risks is bad. From the look of your regimen I won't give myself credit for getting you on-board, but as a disclaimer to anyone else reading this please don't take any of my comments as anything more than a contribution to the public record of my own trials, never an endorsement or suggestion for others. Even further, don't think that following anything I say reduces the risks in any way, I'd hate to hear of anyone acting recklessly because they felt safe that someone had done it before. I'm also concerned about my comments having that inadvertent effect. With that in mind, best wishes in whatever you choose for yourself!

I still suffer from propecia side effects man. I am very sensitive and must find something without sides.

I think people regard CB as the treatment with least side effects. Some say RU/RUM can be rough, and there are recent anecdotes about ASC and sore connective tissue throughout the body. All that stuff is a little too speculative at the moment IMO.

There are other things though that are at least approved to be safe somewhere. AHK-Cu does appear in a product commercially available in the US. Heck you could possibly reduce Tricomin down to 20mL of ~2.5% if you wanted (then it would be the concentrations of inactive ingredients that could be dangerous). But AHK-Cu can be sold in the US as a cosmetic product. There are other products that are at least approved safe in the EU for cosmetic use, and I would look to things like that before the nuclear options that haven't been approved as safe by anybody.

Fluridil is a gentle anti-androgen devoid of side effects or systemic absorption that comes to mind. It can be purchased under the Eucapil brand name but at a pretty substantial cost, about 30-40 euros/month. It's mechanism of action is allegedly similar to ASC - on the androgen receptor itself rather than on 5-AR. And its hydrolytic degradation means it breaks down into harmless metabolites on contact with water (i.e. in the blood), but which makes the application and drying a bit more tedious. Fluridil has gotten some positive remarks from el_dut on HLH, and he is certainly a respected and reputable contributor to the discussion. It's more expensive, less convenient, and definitely less effective than finasteride, but that's the trade-off if you suffer side effects (which sucks) and value safety (which you should).

My regimen:
Ketoconazole 2% shampoo (by prescription from my doctor)
Finasteride 1.25mg (by prescription from my doctor)
Minoxidil 5% (OTC in US, under advice from my doctor)
Spironolactone 5% (approved safe cosmetic in US)
Tricomin w/ extra shot of AHK (approved safe cosmetic in US, tested dosage)

What will I try next:
Bimatoprost (approved safe cosmetic in US)
Aminexil (approved safe cosmetic in EU)
Fluridil (approved safe cosmetic in EU)

What will I keep my fingers crossed and pray gets vetted by a respected regulatory health organization:
RU, CB, ASC, Astressin-B, OC

Noting your sensitivity to finasteride, I don't think taking the plunge into uncharted waters is the best course of action. Hopefully you're already using a keto shampoo, but I think you should look into spironolactone or fluridil as anti-androgens for now, see how you tolerate those and let things develop clinically on the experimental anti-androgens RU, CB, and ASC. Good luck!

 

[jonson]

Floridil don't make side effect?

 

[TheLastHairbender]

It is believed to be non-systemic and to have no significant side effects, but skin dryness and irritation can be possible with any topical. The mechanism of action is different than finasteride's and therefore sensitivity to finasteride need not imply sensitivity to fluridil. In general, while not thought of as primally effective, I haven't heard anyone disagree with its saftey.

I've never tried it myself and I'm in no way a fluridil promoter, but it sounds like it might make sense as a first-cut anti-androgen for someone in your position. Worth taking a closer look on your part, I really can't tell you much more than that about it but I know it was discussed at length in like 2009 or so on these boards and others.