Propositions

[JayBear]

While I'm going to go ahead and chalk tuesday up as a big win on balance, I do want to go ahead and thank the millions of califonians, arizonans, and floridians who just set gay rights back years. I'm also very impressed at the determination of Arkansas voters who overwhelmingly decided that children would be much better off in the ineffective and overcrowded foster system than in a home with gay parents.

 

[oni]

JayBear, what can I say............................................... :dunno:

 

[The Gardener]

It's a disgrace that Propecia 8 passed in California.

It was actually headed for defeat until the month before the election date, when we were flooded with some really unfair and scare-mongering TV advertising. The ridiculous thing about it is that gay marriage has been legal in CA for several months now, I believe, and its not like anything horrible has happened to society here during this time. In fact, nobody really has noticed! I find it absurd that absurd that people would take an issue that really has not played any factor in their own personal lifestyles and go out of their way to deny basic human rights to others.

 

[CCS]

It passed 53% to 47%, with the help of a flood of commercials. I say put an override amendment on the 2010 ballot. Start getting signatures now, or whenever the time frame is. You already know at 1 out of 2 people will sign it. Make them pay for more commercials til they are bankrupt.

 

[CCS]

Amazing!!

Massacusets had a measure to repeal the state income tax! Can you believe that? I bet the legislature was all against that. I wonder if the measure would have also banded state spending, or just taxing.
30% voted yes.

Arizona's Propecia 102 ban on Gay marriage passed 56% to 44%. 2 years ago it failed 48% to 52%. Gays are getting closer, and it is a coin flip at this point, at least in states like AZ and CA.

Arkansas voted against gays having kids 57% to 43%. I remember other states years ago that voted down gay marriage 85% to 15%. This is a huge improvement. Don't give up hope. Keep on educating.

 

[JayBear]

CCS I think you're actually trying to make me feel better and more hopeful, which is appreciated. There are two issues. One is a political one, in which i agree with you that there are ways to counteract this in the near and distant future. In that sense the coin flip aspect could work to our advantage. The other issue is that half of voting americans feel the way they do about us. That we are immoral and un-american. That we don't deserve the same rights as other people. That even the worst and ugliest of heterosexual marriages is more valid and sacred than the best of homosexual unions. That about two-thirds of straight marriages end in divorce, yet somehow my desire to live with the man I love and raise a family together is the real threat to the sanctity of marriage. Half of america feels that way about me. Sorry to rant...

 

[optimus prime]

JayBear, How long has gay marriage been allowed in the US and what percent ends in divorce?

Just asking out of interest.

 

[JayBear]

JayBear, How long has gay marriage been allowed in the US and what percent ends in divorce?

Just asking out of interest.

Gay marriage has only been allowed in Massachusetts and some parts of California. Some other states offer certain, limited rights. Massachusetts was the first with a supreme court ruling in 2003. California's history has been confusing. Marriage rights are granted by the state, and some areas of california took the lack of formal legislation to be indicative of the fact that the state government was waiving its right to legislate on this matter. This led to famous actions on the part of people like the mayor of San Francisco.

That having been said, gay divorce is not something I can address for two reasons: First, even in places like canada, where gays are allowed to marry, the legislation is so new that there is actually no legal framework for homosexuals to divorce. Second, there isn't any significant data on homosexual divorce yet, although I would be willing to bet that if all 50 states legalized gay marriage tomorrow, within a decade or two the gay divorce rate would be almost identical to the heterosexual divorce rate. Just a hunch mind you.

 

[CCS]

The 104.1 FM people dislike fiscal liberals just as much as they dislike you. I'm sure many democrats think "fair tax" advocates are rick greedy bastards. So what if 50% of people don't like you. 80% of women think a bald man like me is only as good as the money I am willing to give them for free. Get over it.

Good news: most judges will not flip existing marriages upside down. If you got married when you had the chance, you are good. If not, you got to wait 2-4 years for the coin flip to go your way, and then you got to take advantage while you can. It will be interesting to see if the many of your dreams is still waiting by your side by then.

I'm not gay, so I don't have a reason to make the pro gay marriage Propecia pass. But I'd get you some signatures just so I can enjoy the conservatives radio ads, knowing full well they paid a lot of money to put them on the air. The key is to keep making them pay every year, and pay less than you do.

Anyway, I distictly remember several states outlawing gay marriage by 85% 4 years ago, though it was not california. It was other more conservative states. But I think one of the three that banned it this year was a kind of conservative state, and only did it by 57%.

Most likely, gay marriage will be permenantly legal when HM arrives.

Micheal Savage was saying on the radio that if gays keep trying to "re-define" marriage, it will bring out a lot of gay hating people from the closets. What a guy. Social conservatives like him make me want to side with the sociallists, even though I hate sociallists.

 

[CCS]

And jaybear, don't forget the countries that want us all dead. It is not just gays that half the people out there hate. Many blacks still hold the anger of the 1960's, the the Obama win may have eased some of that.

BTW, why do you want to get married? So people will acknowledge your relationship? Stop caring if that is the case. The only reason to get married is so you can addopt kids, or get certain financial rights. Look into domestic partnerships to see what all the rights are. I think a lot of states have not yet outlawed addoption for non-married people. Just one did. You may be able to addopt and have a civil union. Then who cares what people call it. I don't think the california courts will flip your life upside down after the fact, just before the fact. That is what John Justice was saying on 104.1 this morning. I believe him.

 

[The Gardener]

The thing I find most hypocritical about SOME who are opposed to gay marriage is that most of the conservative community constantly harp on how marriage is such a stabilizing influence on our society and economy. They state that people in marriages are more productive, tend to be more law abiding, have better health statistics, have fewer sick days from work, have more stable economic households, etc.. and they encourage marriage by giving married couples tax benefits, for example.

If they truly feel this way about marriage, then I'd think they would ENCOURAGE marriages between committed gay couples. There are plenty of religious institutions, and increasingly even mainstream religious institutions, that honor the concept of a gay couple wanting to enter a bond of marriage.

Don't hang your head, JayBear. Those who opposed Propecia 8 are swimming against the current of history. Keep up the fight.

 

[ali777]

One of my roomies is gay :gay:. We talk about those subjects, but he's kinda ignorant when it comes to the bigger picture. I don't think he cares about gay marriage or adoption laws.

I'm with The Gardener here. I'm very open about pretty much everything, but I still believe in family values. If gay marriage would help gays have similar values in their lives, then it could only be a positive thing.

 

[JayBear]

So what if 50% of people don't like you. 80% of women think a bald man like me is only as good as the money I am willing to give them for free. Get over it.

No, I won't. And its not that they don't like me, its that they find the way I was born to be so morally reprehensible that they consider it right and fair to pass laws denying me rights. I'm sorry, but its not the same as being bald.

BTW, why do you want to get married? So people will acknowledge your relationship? Stop caring if that is the case.

I'm sorry, perhaps its shallow of me, but part of me does want this. Part of me wants the rest of the country to acknowledge that my love and commitment is the same as theirs.

The only reason to get married is so you can addopt kids, or get certain financial rights. Look into domestic partnerships to see what all the rights are. I think a lot of states have not yet outlawed addoption for non-married people. Just one did. You may be able to addopt and have a civil union. Then who cares what people call it. I don't think the california courts will flip your life upside down after the fact, just before the fact. That is what John Justice was saying on 104.1 this morning. I believe him.

Adoption is not the only reason, but it is a big one. Even if you get a domestic partnership, however, many times prejudice continues to make adoption difficult. Most gays I know were able to adopt only because they knew someone who was pregnant and didn't want to be, or used a surrogate. There are many other reasons, and CUs currently do not address all, or in some cases even most, of them.

I'm with The Gardener here. I'm very open about pretty much everything, but I still believe in family values. If gay marriage would help gays have similar values in their lives, then it could only be a positive thing.

I do think it would, and I do think it exposes a hole in the rationale of conservatives. I do not, however, think that it is the reason to grant us equal rights.

 

[PersonGuy]

I find it disappointing that persons with little to no understanding of homosexuality have the ability to vote on issues which affect only gays directly. Although it does not surprise me given the fact that this country has a history built on doing just that. While I understand that change in any direction is difficult to effect, it still saddens me that progressive thinking has not prevailed quicker regarding this issue. Eventually it will be done. Sooner or later gays will enjoy all the rights to which they are entitled as humans. The speed at which this change comes will be the true measure of our progress as people and I think that if we are patient and people are properly educated, it will come sooner than we think.

 

[JayBear]

I find it disappointing that persons with little to no understanding of homosexuality have the ability to vote on issues which affect only gays directly. Although it does not surprise me given the fact that this country has a history built on doing just that. While I understand that change in any direction is difficult to effect, it still saddens me that progressive thinking has not prevailed quicker regarding this issue. Eventually it will be done. Sooner or later gays will enjoy all the rights to which they are entitled as humans. The speed at which this change comes will be the true measure of our progress as people and I think that if we are patient and people are properly educated, it will come sooner than we think.

I agree, America has always tended towards more tolerance, rather than less, to more rights, rather than less, and to open-mindedness, rather than close-mindedness. The last sentence of your post is well-taken. The women's voting movement took so long that when they finally won the vote, it was a victory for the movement, not a victory for America. For many reasons, some of them personal, I am worried that gay rights is going down that path.

 

[Cassin]

This will get done in due time. It wasn't that long ago that gays were a secret society nobody ever spoke of. Just when I was a kid they were never on TV and now they are all over the place in leading roles. I know that seems like a simple shallow comment but I think its a significant example of where they stand socially.

Gays are irrelevant to me and how any rational, clear thinking and confident person can be so threatened by them is beyond me. They have zero impact in my life. I could not care if someone is gay or straight although the over the top gay guy cracks me up just like the over the top straight tough meat head. :jump:

Why anyone is bothered by gays getting married is beyond me. If they were to have a crazy divorce rate then and only then would I have a problem with them adopting.

Good luck and be patient JayBear...

And CCS....you suddenly pop in hear a roaring conservative but I don't think you have a clue what it means. You change your mind so fast I suspect you will be a chest thumping liberal in no time. You're a complete moron to tell him to get over it. He has a right to chase any and every dream he can. If he wants to spend his life with someone in a recognized fashion then I applaud him. Marriage has so many rights that can make or break a life and two gay people deserve those rights the same as straight people.

 

[Starseed]

Well, I'm going to dissent here. I would hate to be a child growing up without a mother and father - BOTH - as my parents. Boys especially need male father role models; statistics show that those who grow up without both parents do worse in many areas - drug/alcohol abuse, educational attainment, criminality, etc.

Common sense says I want a Mother AND a Father. Whose "rights" are greater than the rights of a child? Seems very selfish IMHO.

 

[Cassin]

Well, I'm going to dissent here. I would hate to be a child growing up without a mother and father .

But there is something to be said about how much work a couple has to do to adopt. Its no on the fly decision.

Just like womens rights and just like black rights one day we're going to be like "I can't believe gays weren't allowed to _______ like the rest of us"

 

[Hammy070]

I have mixed feelings. Though I defend the rights of gay people as individuals and couples to live as gays freely, I'd have to draw a line at adoption. This might be because of the state of current society and/or my own personal experience.

I don't think a child would have a good start with two men as parents. Yes, single mothers exist, bad hetero parents exist, but those situations are never intended but are unfortunate. Again this could be because I have two good parents, close to mother and father. Both have influenced me as mother and as father, they are VERY different influences which I value a lot. I simple don't believe that quality can be achieved with same sex parents.

As for marriage, if it's simply official recognition, then it's no big deal, financial rights no biggie either. All that involves the people, but when children are involved I think their situatin takes precedence over everything else.


Quite possible though to meet halfway. For example, infants and children below 12-ish always go to hetero couples, those over that age and have a more complete perception of homosexuality can decide themselves. But to place very young children into a samesex household at our CURRENT state of society is unfair.

 

[Cassin]

As for marriage, if it's simply official recognition, then it's no big deal, financial rights no biggie either. .

Financially being married vs single is massive in the US. Everything changes from renting an apartment, insurance, taxes to loans.