Propositions

[Hammy070]

Yes I know. It's a big deal in a marriage. But it concerns the couple mainly, it doesn't involve others as in the case of adoption. I would imagine it would be more complex in a same-sex marriage as there's no preconceptions of male breadwinnership as in the case of "traditional" marriage.

The marriage rights involving matters between the COUPLE is what I'm differentiating from external rights involving children. Man and woman have the right by default as they are equipped to actually have children. Samesex parenting is by default a privelege, not a right.

 

[The Gardener]

Samesex parenting is by default a privelege, not a right.

Kind of like how being able to ride in the front of the bus was, back in 1960's Selma, Alabama.

I think the fissure on this issue is whether or not you believe that people are born, genetically, gay. Those who believe that being gay is a matter of genetics (as I do) tend to see this as a flat-out civil rights issue.

Those who believe that being gay is not genetic, but a behavioral choice, are probably ambivalent about this.

 

[ali777]

I'm sorry to say this, I would vote for gay rights and gay marriages but I would veto adoption by gay couples... Unless, someone can convience me that one of the two men can take the role of a mother.

I'm open minded about most things, but when it comes to raising kids, I believe in traditional family values.

 

[The Gardener]

I'm sorry to say this, I would vote for gay rights and gay marriages but I would veto adoption by gay couples... Unless, someone can convience me that one of the two men can take the role of a mother.

I'm open minded about most things, but when it comes to raising kids, I believe in traditional family values.

So, if you feel that way, then would you support a law banning the ability of single women, or single men, to adopt children?

There's no big "outcry" about this, is there?

 

[ali777]

I'm sorry to say this, I would vote for gay rights and gay marriages but I would veto adoption by gay couples... Unless, someone can convience me that one of the two men can take the role of a mother.

I'm open minded about most things, but when it comes to raising kids, I believe in traditional family values.

So, if you feel that way, then would you support a law banning the ability of single women, or single men, to adopt children?

There's no big "outcry" about this, is there?

I'm not aware of any country that allows singles to adopt kids... Maybe you can enlighten me?

 

[The Gardener]

I believe you are British, no?

It's perfectly legal in Britain
http://www.adoptionuk.org/adoption_facts.asp?menuid=2

As well as in the United States
http://www.adopt.org/assembled/single_parents.html

And I bet if I did a bit more googling, I'd wager a bet that is probably legal in Canada, Australia, and probably all of the non-Latin European nations.

 

[optimus prime]

I also would vote against gay adoption. A would also vote against single parents being allowed to adopt.

Kind of like how being able to ride in the front of the bus was, back in 1960's Selma, Alabama.

I think the fissure on this issue is whether or not you believe that people are born, genetically, gay. Those who believe that being gay is a matter of genetics (as I do) tend to see this as a flat-out civil rights issue.

It’s not a right. It is also not the same as riding a bus.

It is however their right to be allowed to get married, but not adopt. Also gay marriage has been around for a very short period of time. You need to see how stable it is. We just don’t know what to expect from it. We could find divorce rates on a par or more than mixed couples. That for me would be unacceptable.

 

[ali777]

I believe you are British, no?

It's perfectly legal in Britain
http://www.adoptionuk.org/adoption_facts.asp?menuid=2

As well as in the United States
http://www.adopt.org/assembled/single_parents.html

And I bet if I did a bit more googling, I'd wager a bet that is probably legal in Canada, Australia, and probably all of the non-Latin European nations.

No, I'm not British.. I just happen to be in the UK. Can you not tell from my language mistake that I'm not a native speaker :innocent: ?

TBH, I didn't know about it. I googled it, and it looks like 10% of British adoptions are by single parents, with most of them being single mothers.

I still don't agree with it. The whole point behind adoption is to give a child in need a nurturing family environment. Statistically, as Hammy already pointed out, children in single parent families do not perform as well as children raised by two parents.

I believe a kid needs both female and male parents, and the statistics prove me right.

 

[Hammy070]

Pedophiles are also born that way, I doubt they'd have any rights though for adoption. Nobody has the right to adopt, it's in all cases rigorously examined before a child is handed a home. Rights are default, and not pre-tested. This is why male-female couples who would never meet the criteria for adoption, still have the right to have their own children.

I don't agree with single parenting except unless there are too many kids needing adopted AND that the single parent has already proven parenting skills with their own children.

I do believe being gay is genetic. I also believe it's a disorder. It is 'outside the norm' in the same as every other disorder. Dyslexic, aspergers syndrome, ADHD etc are in the same kind of league, as in they are not illnesses just differences that can have challenges. I know that doesn't sound very politically correct, but it's said very dispassionately. Human beings though have successfully demonstrated sexual orientations to every kind of person. The only one illegal is pedophilia, as it's abusive to children.

 

[JayBear]

There are no statistics showing whether or not gay couple make good or bad parents. I can tell you from personal experience that some same-sex couple make good parents, and some make less than good parents. The essential point i'm trying to make is that there is nothing inherent in same-sex couples that make them worse parents than heterosexual couples. The strong prevalent belief otherwise is based on the outdated notion that homosexuality is an immoral practice. In the words of Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice, "homosexual conduct of a parent ... creates a strong presumption of unfitness that alone is sufficient justification for denying that parent custody of his or her own children." There is no doubt in my mind that the people who oppose same-sex parenting, even the ones on this forum, do so because of the continued influence of this idea on our society. Every single issue-advocacy group who opposes same-sex parenting is a christian one. You simply cannot know if homosexuals would make good or bad parents ahead of time. Just being gay doesn't automatically put you in the bad parent category. Homosexuality is not immoral, it is not a disorder along the lines of Aspergers or ADHD, it is not deviancy along the lines of bestiality and pedophilia, and it certainly does not preclude us from being outstanding parents, as I hope very much to be one day.

My second argument, unfortunately, is a less well-thought out and rational one. It has to do with marriage rights as well. Basically it is this: I'm an American citizen endowed by my creator, as every other citizen is, with the unalienable right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. To the American electorate I would say this, "Who the f*** are you to tell me who I can love, whether that love is valid, whether I'm immoral, or whether I would be a fit parent. I don't judge you, stop f*****g judging me!!!!"

 

[Hammy070]

JayBear, don't get me wrong. I am pretty sure you could make a great father. I'm hopeful that one day I could also be a great dad. However, my issue is: I can never ever be a great mother.

I also don't intend to mean disorder as a pathology. I've got ADHD and Aspergers, which is why I mentioned them specifically. The disorder though as with homosexuality is contextual. There are quirks to certain neurotypes, they are neither good nor bad, but different. Einstein, Edison and Mozart are believed to have had ADHD by some, and of course, we all know countless gay/bisexual eminent people throughout history.

Neurotypes in this regard can be compared with phenotypes. People with a strangely large amount of fast twitch muscle fibres are freakishly strong and can lift massive weights and build monstrous muscles, naturally. People with a strangely large amount of slow twitch muscle fibres, can run marathons, their endurance is incredible. Place the fast twitch on a running track, he'll look disordered and barely cover much distance, place the slow twitch in a weightlifting competition, she'll probably collapse with just a bare barbell. For you, a free society that sees all as equal individuals is your benefit, whereas Iran or actually even anywhere 50 years ago, you'd be 'disordered'.

There are things each of us can do, environments that can bring about our best. I simply believe the best environment for a child is a mother-father.

You don't like girls obviously. Wouldn't surrogate mother with a friend work? You can still be mother and father, why don't gay men and lesbian women hook up for parenting? You could have your partners as uncle and auntie who share the bed coz....beds are expensive, coz of the credit crunch....lol. Ok I've gone way off track. :shakehead:

 

[Hammy070]

You don't like girls obviously. Wouldn't surrogate mother with a friend work? You can still be mother and father, why don't gay men and lesbian women hook up for parenting? You could have your partners as uncle and auntie who share the bed coz....beds are expensive, coz of the credit crunch....lol. Ok I've gone way off track. :shakehead:

You won't obviously be intimate with your lesbian partner. That might be a blessing in disguise for the child who will never ever get to see the sheer horror of his parents making out. :freaked2:

 

[JayBear]

You don't like girls obviously. Wouldn't surrogate mother with a friend work? You can still be mother and father, why don't gay men and lesbian women hook up for parenting? You could have your partners as uncle and auntie who share the bed coz....beds are expensive, coz of the credit crunch....lol. Ok I've gone way off track. :shakehead:

The short answer is that, while I know many lesbians and lesbian couples that I like and care for, I want to start a family with my partner, with the two of us as parents. I understand that in your opinion, as in the opinion of many, our parenting would be less than complete given the lack of a woman. Nevertheless, I think we would make great parents, would raise a child in a loving and stable environment, and would care and provide for that child at least as well as the average heterosexual couple. My personal opinion is that these are what qualifies you to be a parent, not your reproductive capabilities.

 

[CCS]

Simple. You and your partner marry two lesbian women, sparately. Hell, don't marry them. As long as you are the father, you have rights.

OK, so you donate sperm to them, in a cup, and give them money for their trouble. $10,000 for carrying your kid, plus delivery costs, might do. I'm sure you can find a woman in china who will help you here, but try the US first so you don't get into trouble. You then are the father, and have child support obligations. But you "agree" with them in court that you will have full custody over one of the kids, and she will have full custody over the other. You get a civil union with your soul mate. The kid is yours, biologically and legally now. He is "the god father". I think that can be done legally. This is not a marriage, but it is your own separate family unit, and pretty close to current family unity. Look around and you might be able to get your god father permission to pick your kid up from school, and other stuff. Find out what other contracts there are out there for non-family members to have guardian type rights/responsibilities. Hell, you can even pay him as a nanny if he is a stay at home dad. Free rent is the payment. Keep thinking and you can come up with more ideas.

 

[CCS]

then tell other gays, but not the ones who will go thumb it in the faces of the religious right. You don't want them getting upset and passing more laws. Sue them only when they pass them. Don't provoke them to pass them.

 

[Old Baldy]

Some of you guys are making this TOO complicated.

Take it from this old right winger - if two gay people love each other and are honest decent people, they should be allowed to enter into a legal civil union and adopt kids. Alot of my right wing buddies could care less about this subject.

With all the wacky, heterosexual jackasses out their raising kids I see this as no problem.

Go for it. What the heck for Godsakes! If you don't want to call it marriage, at least let them enter into a legal civil union. It's their character and behavior that counts IMHO.

Btw, isn't one of the partners the "motherly" type (i.e., with two men) ? You know, what we right wingers call "the receiver"? And, with two lesbians, isn't one of the partners the "fatherly" type. You know, what we right wingers call "the giver"

That should take care of Ali's concerns! :mrgreen:

 

[ali777]

Btw, isn't one of the partners the "motherly" type (i.e., with two men) ? You know, what we right wingers call "the receiver"? And, with two lesbians, isn't one of the partners the "fatherly" type. You know, what we right wingers call "the givers"

Obviously you don't know many gay people.. There is no such thing as a receiver or a giver. They are all receivers and givers at the same time having loads of fun unk:

I live with a gay guy and I openly talk about sex with him. I bet you wouldn't feel comfortable talking to a gay guy about a*** sex :gay: .

That should take care of Ali's concerns! :mrgreen:

I don't really care much about this subject. I was one of three people that said we don't feel comfortable with gay couples adopting. It's not exactly a concern for me, it's just my personal opinion.

 

[CCS]

Some of you guys are making this TOO complicated.

Take it from this old right winger - if two gay people love each other and are honest decent people, they should be allowed to enter into a legal civil union and adopt kids. Alot of my right wing buddies could care less about this subject.

With all the wacky, heterosexual jackasses out their raising kids I see this as no problem.

Go for it. What the heck for Godsakes! If you don't want to call it marriage, at least let them enter into a legal civil union. It's their character and behavior that counts IMHO.

Old Baldy you're a good man! I hope you are right about most conservatives feeling that way. If it is just the word marriage they want preserve, and for child raising they care more about character than about sexual orientation (barring pediphiles) then I'll gladly drop my gay marriage support and burry the issue if they show me that gays can addopt and get civil unions.